If you really think that has some sexualization, than I think you need some help.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Quiet is actually the worst because on top of being a walking sex doll, she's extremely contradictory in how she acts around you.
The game implies at times that she might have feelings for you, but she still acts extremely aggressive or at the very least cold towards you all the time... Unless you're riding the helicopter with her! Then she acts like this
At no other point in the game she acts sexy or even flirty with you or anyone (outside of a terrible shower scene, but that's an easter egg). I seear at times I think she started as pure fanservice like in the gif, but Kojima probably pulled a tragic back story for her out of his ass once people complained about her design.
All fair points, but again I haven't played the game so I can't really make an accurate critique. The most I'll say is I don't believe contradictory elements inherently make a character bad on an objective analysis level and can actually enhance characters, with IMO Yoko Taro characters being absolutely masterful examples.
So basically if mods start banning for wrong think it would be better? No doubt it would be for sensitive hiveminded folks, but this isn't neogaf.
I can see my wording was confusing- I was saying MVC3 had less sexaulization. I probably shouldn't have used the word 'strongest.'
It's not about wrong think, it's about thread derailing and trollish instigating.
Or, because we've heard your shlock a million times before and it got old the first time.
The hivemind nonsense complaints about that place were always code for "they're very intolerant of my low key bigoted views" anyway lmao. If people want to share their sexist, racist, transphobic, etc views freely then they have literally the entire rest of the internet to do so without any "censorship" to stop them.
NiohNioh
Marvel vs. Capcom
Breath of the Wild
Injustice 2
Tekken 7
Boss shows some cleavage. Nothing wrong with that.
MvC
So, how is this sexualization? Is she naked? Is she just show her figure? What's up.
BoTW
I'm not even gonna comment on how absurd this claim is lol
Injustice 2
Poison Ivy has always been sexualize, but even than she is much more tame here than in other comics/games featuring her.
Tekken 7
Again, not seeing the sexualization other than a her cleavage.
As I said, I feel people just see what they want to see. What do you want female characters to dress like than? Full head gear, baggy dress, long skirts?
To be fair, the same thing could be said about the apparent sexism in video game characters.
Sorry if I haven't seen, but most of the comments trying to discuss and giving their own opinions aren't trolls or trying to derail. Hell, some people here will probably report me for derailing even though I am not doing that.
Are you really so unimaginative that you cannot picture women wearing different outfits unless they show cleavage, body forming clothing, or short skirts?
Uhh, no. It's always because people can't share their opinions without getting flamed for it. for example, in old neogaf, if I were to give a reasonable argument as to why Tlou isn't a good game, you would get tons of comments calling you out for no reasons and even reporting you. Expecting you to fall in line and think in an echo chamber. This is what I mean about "hivemind". Same thing in reddit though I think it's worse since you get downvoted into oblivion.
Hell, I'm already getting tons of comments with snark and even reports just for sharing my opinion about "sexualization" of female characters. It's just opinions, it doesn't mean I'm a bigot or have "lowkey bigot views".
I can imagine tons, and their are good examples in the same games you pointed out, but I again turn the question to you and say "Why can't you accept female characters with cleavage, body forming clothing, and short skirts?"
If you had read the OP, the issue is not the fact they the wear that, it is the sheer prevalence of it that is the problem. In addition to the fact the fact that women will be wearing said clothing will men will be wearing full armor. Look at when we were discussing Xenoblade Chronicles 2, asides from Morag, many women wear fanservice clothing while men wear full gear for no real reason other than fanservice.
Did... did you really ask how Morrigan is an example of sexualization?
Yeah, okay. You're not fooling anybody anymore.
I wasn't calling you out specifically and I should have been clearer that I only meant the hivemind idea being nonsense when people complained about it regarding social issues in games rather than silly stuff like GOTY wars. The latter can be absolutely true but IMO that's more related to the nature of forums and online discussions than a specific issue with a specific community.
To both of you: please stop derailing the thread with meta-commentary like this.
On another note directed to the thread in general: just because someone has a different perspective on a topic, doesn't mean their post is reportable. Feel free to make liberal use of the ignore feature to make posts from other users with whom you feel you'll just never see eye-to-eye, disappear.
That's what I got from it also, however, I still can't understand the OP since I just named you 5 big games from this year, of the most popular genres that don't have/or have a minimum of sexualized females. some people here are acting like if every game is dead or alive beach ball or something.
0:05 and 0:27
If you can't see it then I'm having a hard time believing you are not being disingenuous
Actually this is a core perspective that is not actually representative of the transaction happening between the artist and the presumed male audience. This presumption that the display of sexual imagery is first and foremost a means to sexually arouse is not correct. They are instead a codification of gender expectations, and it's that codification of women as servant to men's desire to intimately know their body that is being valued when we talk that women in media representation tend towards sexualized nudity than that of men. In essence, what is being sold are these ideas of control. The presumed male viewer is being sold this idea that they are in control, and women are being sold the idea that their sexuality as object is valuable to men.
He's trying to claim a succubus and a Hinoenma aren't sexualized. I think it's pretty clear that he's being disingenuous.
The fact that you have to make a curated list of games shows there is a problem.
Also, most of the posters don't agree with the games you listed. Personally, I think you'd have an extremely hard time avoiding sexualised characters if you were a fan of fighting games or JRPGs.
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These are Japanese developed games a lot of people here are talking about. The culture regarding this kind of thing in video games and anime in Japan is very different to that of the West. Should we really expect Japanese developers to conform to Western standards? Also, if prevalence is the problem then what is the realistic solution? Do developers that want to create sexy female characters need to revise their designs?
It doesn't seem reasonable to impose Western standards on Japanese developers, nor should we be creating limitations on the creative freedoms of developers/designers. While it's fine to make the complaint, it seems odd to the extent that it is complained about considering this isn't something that can or should be controlled.
I think he might be getting confused with with objectification, I know a poster a while back was confused and said those examples don't really have the whole camera really focused on women's bodies in the same way as characters like Quiet (though for MvC 3 you have Trish (close-up of her cleavage while pulling out her shades), Morrigan to a degree (no real closeups exactly), and She-Hulk (close-up of her ass)
The reason why a few of us are complaining about Japanese games is that there have been examples of the past where this wasn't seemingly the only way these games were marketed. Like Shining Force, Atelier, Phantasy Star, and the like wouldn't show this front and center. Or wouldn't have every girl in thigh high socks. Or have increasingly sexualized young girls. Sure, there were games that did, but there were a lot of games that didn't. It is now so prevalent that it is everywhere in those games and for those who like the games but not this type of "fanservice", it's getting increasingly frustrating to see in so common.
Is this a joke? I'm not seeing any sexualization at all. I'm not even going to waste my time having to explain why a character wearing school uniform is not sexualization.
Yea, is that the entire game though? Nice try, but nitpicking a few characters to try and prove a point is disingenuous itself.
It's not the outfit, it's the camera. Look at the way it pans to give you a look down her shirt at 0:05.
You're the one that claimed those games had no sexualized characters in them. Also it's not disingenuous to point out just how pervasive this stuff is.
Having cleavage isn't necessarily objectification. Having a camera focus on that cleavage is another story.
This is why these discussions are important. Because blatant sexualization has been so normalized that some people apparently don't even notice it even when it's right there.
Are you seriously not seeing the constant panning of the camera on her chest?
This is why these discussions are important. Because blatant sexualization has been so normalized that some people apparently don't even notice it even when it's right there.
Permanently Banned: Persistent trolling & user signed up with a banned email address.
I'm not even going to bother with this.
Well, seeing how most, if not all the characters used as examples aren't even close to sexualization or just so minuscule that you have to resort to "camera angles" or simply tight clothing. A few characters in a big roster of fighting games that seem "sexualized" in your eyes doesn't mean the game has a problem. Also, here is another question I've been meaning to ask. Even if this game was dead or alive tier nudity, how would that be such a bad thing? My girlfriend and sisters don't mind this type of stuff, and in fact love playing as Mileena from Mortal Kombat. You can claim anecdotal evidence all you want, but the point is that this is such a nonissue since female gamers who really care about games wouldn't care about the characters or how they dress, they would instead care if it's fun. This is the thing I've been seeing lately that instead of gamers having fun with different games, people have to bring politics into things and dictate whether this or that is bad.
Now I think I should stop commenting since the mods will probably ban me for trying to "derail" the thread, even though I'm not trying to do that.
Wow, a whammy of "well the women I know never complain to my face about this stuff" plus "REAL girl gamers only care about having fun" and "somehow elective discussions of things other than framerates and graphic fidelity is making the hobby worse and less fun."
I think part of the problem is that it can be subjective. The camera was showing her hands punching together, you would generally do that in front of your chest. They would have had to have a different animation just because her cleavage would be shown in the same shot. I can see how it could be interpreted to be sexualised from the video that was linked but it's a pretty tame example if you ask me.
It is hard to take your denials of trolling seriously when you post a blatant "fake gamer girls" comment like this. You are essentially saying that every female gamer who's posted in this thread "don't really care about games". Surely a non-troll would see how insulting that sounds?
Strange to see people reducing this issue to outfits. Camera movements, physics, body type, character, and plot all feature in sexualized character designs. That's true in all kinds of visual media, and video games are hardly an exception. If you're resistant to that simply being pointed out, take some time and reflect on why that might be.
Excuse me?
First off, camera angles and how they focus on women in games is absolutely a HUGE component of how women in games are sexualized. How clothing fits a character IS part of what makes a character sexualized. This isn't resorting to things because of lack of arguement, this IS the arguement.
Second, it's been said time and time again, there are women in this very thread (myself included) who DO care about this. Do not try to silence or dismiss us just because your girlfriend and sister don't mind. And instead of speaking for them, how about letting them come to this thread and speak for themselves. There are a lot of sexualized designs that women don't mind or might even like if it's appropriate, but I have yet to see a single woman come into this thread and say there isn't a problem with how rampant sexualization is within video games as a whole -- even the ones who do enjoy their sexy ladies.
Third, how dare you imply women don't really care about games like they're friggin' less of a gamer because they care about how they are represented in games. This is so absolutely insulting and condescending. Who the fuck are you to dictate what makes someone more or less of a real gamer based on what is important to them. Jesus christ.
The camera is how the characters are portrayed and then viewed by the player/audience. It's not something that people are falling back on as a last resort argument, it's a major argument.
Or they could have actually focused on her hands without having to include her cleavage because were punching together beneath her chest not in front of it.
And I'm pretty sure the fact that the sexualization is so pervasive is the bigger issue, not the tameness.
Not cool.
I don't mind that we have a difference of opinion here, but the types of issues gamers care about are broad and varied. There are so many aspects of a game that shape your opinion, and the overall value of "fun" is defined by more than just gameplay. To isolate it like this is like saying every real gamer enjoys [game in a genre/artstyle/narrative they don't enjoy] because it's fun.
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From OP: "If you're here to tell us we are wrong, overreacting, or to dismiss our opinions, then please don't bother."
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If only one could ask people who are in the targeted demographic, what THEY think.
After all, without that data, we are left with your subjective opinion that one example was tame.
Please remind me, where was the camera located during the hand-punching power move?
The politics have always been there. For whatever reason, however, you've only noticed it recently.
Whew this thread is something. It's a shame to see how on-point the OP is about the arguments against this topic that come up, but I guess it's easy to make such a guide when they pop up in mutli-page segments multiple times over in the same thread.
Though I'll never be able to fully understand as a dude, I can empathize with where this topic is coming from. The feeling of being pandered to isn't nearly as poignant as what women have to deal with but at the end of the day it can really dampen an experience and send your eyes on an endless roll; I can only imagine being on the other side to see how these subtle and overt choices in designs can come off as more insulting, embarrassing and/or reductive to any women deciding to play in general. It's a sad, frustrating state of affairs that unfortunately feels easily overlooked by a lot of people.
Personally I follow a number of Japanese-developed franchises and haven't been fond of their trends for sometime, particularly in longer-running franchises. Seeing stuff like this
...can be frustrating knowing the quality of said game and the pedigree of the franchise, but at the same time I feel the same way about the shift from traditional designs to ones with more modern and often ill-fitting & ludicrous influences. Granted Ys and Falcom games in general weren't perfect in the past and Ys 8 / the new Trails games aren't the most egregious examples out there now, but the shifts are noticeable and problematic nonetheless.
And mannn don't get me started on the Shining series. M e s s .
Also I'm really glad Xenoblade 2 has been getting a thrashing in here, it really is an explosion of these unfavorable and blatantly disturbing trends (as well as just some straight up wack designs). I would say I can't believe some of the stuff being shoved into that game, but I'd be lying out my ass. Even still, most of it really belies the standards I (admittedly) assumed the Xenoblade series had. From what little I know of the first game and even X with its controversy these designs feel like jumping the shark twice over.
...and I'm glad I know what this is now so I can identify part of what's been driving me up the wall so much lately. It's terribly bland, overused and really comes off as lazy more often than not now.
Though I'll never be able to fully understand as a dude, I can empathize with where this topic is coming from. The feeling of being pandered to isn't nearly as poignant as what women have to deal with but at the end of the day it can really dampen an experience and send your eyes on an endless roll; I can only imagine being on the other side to see how these subtle and overt choices in designs can come off as more insulting, embarrassing and/or reductive to any women deciding to play in general. It's a sad, frustrating state of affairs that unfortunately feels easily overlooked by a lot of people.
Personally I follow a number of Japanese-developed franchises and haven't been fond of their trends for sometime, particularly in longer-running franchises. Seeing stuff like this
...can be frustrating knowing the quality of said game and the pedigree of the franchise, but at the same time I feel the same way about the shift from traditional designs to ones with more modern and often ill-fitting & ludicrous influences. Granted Ys and Falcom games in general weren't perfect in the past and Ys 8 / the new Trails games aren't the most egregious examples out there now, but the shifts are noticeable and problematic nonetheless.
And mannn don't get me started on the Shining series. M e s s .
Also I'm really glad Xenoblade 2 has been getting a thrashing in here, it really is an explosion of these unfavorable and blatantly disturbing trends (as well as just some straight up wack designs). I would say I can't believe some of the stuff being shoved into that game, but I'd be lying out my ass. Even still, most of it really belies the standards I (admittedly) assumed the Xenoblade series had. From what little I know of the first game and even X with its controversy these designs feel like jumping the shark twice over.
...and I'm glad I know what this is now so I can identify part of what's been driving me up the wall so much lately. It's terribly bland, overused and really comes off as lazy more often than not now.
Paul "beefiest daddy" Phoenix has a similiar intro pose (1:01 in the video) but the camera works for him is totally different
Why aren't they focusing on those massive hands pounding while his beefy goods "happen" to be in frame? /s
We all know why there's a clear difference here. (Also the hands+cleavage shot is also used as one of the opening shots of a promotional trailer in the PS Store. Let's not act like they don't know what they are doing here.)
Going back to Katarina... The very first intro animation in the video speaks for itself
"b-but it's not a close up on her tits!"
Ugh...
Ugh...
While superhero comics have their own issues with objectification, recent DC games have given female character more sexualized designs than they have in the source material. Here are two images of Poison Ivy from comics published this month:
It's also worth comparing Harley Quinn's original costume to her costumes in Arkham Asylum and other DC games:
No one's hands are tied here; these characters aren't getting sexualized designs because game devs are trying to stay loyal to the source material.
The issue isn't just cleavage. It's the jiggle physics on every character's breasts. It's the way the cameras pan over their body. It's the way that they're posed. It's the out-of-place moans. It's that characters are wearing bikini tops into battle. It's that all of this is the norm rather than the exception.
Katarina isn't an anomaly in Tekken 7. She's in the same game as Josie:
And Master Raven:
And Alisa:
And Eliza:
And Asuka:
(Remember, this is all from a game you singled out for having zero sexualization)
No one is asking for female characters to be covered from head to toe. People are asking for women to be treated as human beings rather than sex objects.
A '' real girls don't really care objectification'' post in the 64th page of a thread that clearly shows that various people (many of them women) care has to be some kind of record in sheer
obtuseness.
Seeing that comparison of the male characters definitely does make it clear the direction they were going with their female characters.
I certainly can't argue that it doesn't happen in games, I just don't think it's that big an issue nor is it an issue that we can realistically resolve. That isn't to dismiss those that do see it as an issue, that's just my perspective.
Your favorite game is political. And the fact that you can't see that reflects more on you as a person than on the medium itself which is full of political as hell messaging and morals. Sidenote:As the medium grows up, so does the discussion surrounding it. Honestly the "realfemalegamers™ don't care" is so incredibly asinine and immature. Like how the goal post has moved from "these games feature ZERO sexualization" to "well these examples are only a little bit, you need help if you think otherwise"
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