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ShinkuTachi

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,873
Fire Emblem Fates sold more copies in North America than Japan. According to the most recent numbers I have, it sold 780,000 units in Japan and 1.06 million units in North America. Xenoblade Chronicles also sold more in the west than in Japan.

Not Surprised. Hell, even companies that are actually dedicated to fanservce and otaku pandering by trade (like Compile Heart) survive off of Western sales. CH in particular wouldn't stay afloat if not for Western demand. The demand is big enough in NA and the West in general, that Idea Factory opened a Western publishing house.

While I'm not particularly a fan of Compile Heart and their content (their games are shit). I'm expounding on the fact that a strong and reliable market for their content exists in the West.
 

theprodigy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
685
Interesting. This and Animal Crossing were the only games to have such a close gap between Japanese and Western sales. For all the other games sales were 2x-9x as much in the West.
Those figures are a) pre-EU release b) doing some weird counting regarding the individual routes, Nintendo later released figures saying ~500k Japan/~1.1m ROTW (Awakening was 500k/1.4m, given there's actually a tail in the west I'd assume the 1.1m has gone up since then while Japan's numbers have not).
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,340
heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere we go again. Some western devs already said that videos like FF or talks in forum had helped them to raise awareness about this issue.

Let's stop this farse only because japanese devs don't give a fuck, look outside of Japan and the world is certainly changing in this area.

I still feel this has a lot to do with where both western developers and Japanese developers are at in terms of the types of games they design. Western games over the past generation or so have definitely drifted toward being realistic, especially those that are AAA, while Japanese games lean a lot more heavily toward fantasy. Even before Feminist Frequency you saw western developers moving in that direction as their games were becoming more realistic. That's not to say that the video series or other opinions haven't helped change some things. I'm just saying that I think you can look at what was happening before then to see that the western market was shifting already.

Anyway, in terms of realistic stuff from Japan, you have a series like Yakuza. Now it certainly has fanservice, but that's generally linked to its side activities (hostess club or something like Kiwami's MesuKing), the women in the main story aren't sexualized. I feel that has a lot to do with if you do go realistic, then there's already expectations for what things are supposed to look like. It reminds me of something that Neil deGrasse Tyson said when people sent emails to him telling him that he complains too much about things wrong with movies that take place in space. He said that if you went to watch a period piece and someone suddenly showed up walking around in a tie dyed T-Shirt, wouldn't that take you out of the movie?

I think once you go into a fantasy direction it allows the developer to set the rules. Those set expectations that you get with realism don't exist for that fictional world. The developer immediately has a lot more freedom because they get to dictate what's acceptable in that world. That doesn't mean that just because it's a fantasy world that it must have sexualized designs, but since there's no preset expectations for what the developer is doing you're certainly far more likely to see designs like that in a fantasy game than a realistic one.

Another element is something Kojima brought up when discussing Quiet. And that's the whole action figure market. That's somewhat unique to Japan as a lot of the big western franchises aren't exactly attractive when it comes to those. You have mega franchises like CoD and Battlefield, but no one is really asking for action figures for those characters. But what's the one western game that seems to have taken off in terms of action figures? That'd be Overwatch. Which wraps back around to the fantasy vs. realism aspect.
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
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Oct 25, 2017
985
What the hell is a mansplaining
giphy-downsized-large.gif
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
1. IMO it's distasteful to insult designers and call their designs "trash" multiple times in a single post, no matter how much you hate them. Criticisms and insults are two different things, and I think your post was leaning to the latter.
A relatively mild derogatory term for a character design is not insulting a person.
2. Your title is misleading. Nowhere do I find why women criticized sexualised character designs.
It should be titled "Why I criticized sexualised character designs", simply of the fact that you were not speaking for other women besides yourself, nor you providing any statistics to back up your claims(how many women would insult the designers the way you did? for example).
Always best to read the thread first. An OP is an invite to discussion, and plenty of women have added criticism. Your dismissal of the OP while conveniently ignoring the week-long, 50-page, 2,600 post discussion it sparked is silly.
3. Are you implying that men don't criticized sexualised character designs as much as women do with a thread like this? Is there any reason and what's your intention to minimize men with your thread?
I've been posting fairly prolifically in this thread as a bloke and have never felt 'minimised', insulted, ignored or anything less than welcome. Maybe it's because I read the discussion first, or maybe because I realise it's not all about me.
4. Quiet and Cindy and Mario and Kratos, etc. are game/fantasy characters, so asking for them to be treated like real people is baffling.
Why are you taking offence at criticism of character design then?

FYI Snake and Raiden were running around naked in their games too(not just Quiet), and none of the characters in FFXV were wearing appropriate clothings for combat(not just Cindy). So do you see what's wrong?
Yes, the problem is that you can't see the difference between a male character in combat in a poor outfit, and a female character in combat in a poor outfit while the camera drools over her and the animator routinely places her in sexualised poses. Not to mention the far higher rate at which this approach is applied to female characters than male ones in various games, of which there are dozens of examples throughout the thread you haven't read.

5. Quiet and Cindy are side characters who are barely in their respective games. Did you really let that stop you from enjoying the games? Seriously?
You're really struggling with the concept of criticism here. I've enjoyed plenty of games that had elements I thought could have been done better, and seen lengthy discussion of far less visable gaming minutae.

I just hope that people can play games the way they are meant to be played and try to enjoy them as much as they can, and know the differences between games and reality.
We can enjoy them and criticise them. We don't have to just keep quiet because the artistic vision was a touch (or very) sexist, and we don't have to stick to binary 'game is utter failure/game is unquestionably brilliant' logic either.

Do you not understand that while you are protecting the rights of game characters you are actively insulting real life people(game developers)?
I don't understand that because it a) doesn't make sense and b) isn't true.

Do you really think that you are accomplishing anything here in a gaming forum?
What did you think you were accomplishing by typing this out? Telling the OP their post was pointless, at length, when it's clearly had loads of people agreeing with the thrust of it for a week and a half?

Personally how I would fight for women's right in real life: Vote, donate, protest on the streets, educate, get involved, and behave as a decent human being in the real world.
We can do that AND post on games forums. I've posted in lengthy threads about utter minutae of a hundred different subjects and rarely seen the OP told they are wasting their time quite like this. What is it about the cartoon tits that makes it so important to write that people shouldn't write about it?
 
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GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
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Oct 25, 2017
985
What do you call it when a woman does it? I've had it happen to me plenty of times.
Due to different power dynamics I'm not sure its worth having a unique term for it. It would probably just be "being condescending"
The thing with mansplaining is that it occurs specifically because men (sub) consciously assume women need help understanding things due to their gender. It happening the opposite way would likely not be due to assumptions about gender but just because the person is simply talking down to you
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
Due to different power dynamics I'm not sure its worth having a unique term for it. It would probably just be "being condescending"
The thing with mansplaining is that it occurs specifically because men (sub) consciously assume women need help understanding things due to their gender. It happening the opposite way would likely not be due to assumptions about gender but just because the person is simply talking down to you

But how do you know the man is mansplaining and not just talking down to the woman then? Since you can't always assume these power dynamics to be in action.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
What do you call it when a woman does it? I've had it happen to me plenty of times.

I'm sure you have. Your whataboitism isn't really relevant here though.

There's a culture surrounding mansplaining. Sexist, patriarchal societal norms and structures. Boys Club privileges. Things women have to live through every day.

That's not dismissive of male issues, that's not saying the way you've been treated by condescending idiots is ok, but there's a clear difference.

You can see that right?
 

GraphicViolets

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Oct 25, 2017
985
But how do you know the man is mansplaining and not just talking down to the woman then? Since you can't always assume these power dynamics to be in action.
The power dynamics are always in action due to it being ingrained in our society(which power dynamics is likely not the exact right term but I think its close enough at least). But yeah intent isn't necessarily always there. Definitely has to depend on context. as in this thread a lot of the instances of called out mansplaining are things that women have already showed themselves aware of and the person guilty of it states that its a thing that women need to realize. Even without the previous posts by women its pretty bad but especially with that context it very clearly shows that the people are attempting to over explain things specifically to women
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
But how do you know the man is mansplaining and not just talking down to the woman then? Since you can't always assume these power dynamics to be in action.
You can generally see how people treat other people around them, beside yourself. I've had a man talk normally to other guys, who were the same level of experience as I was, and then talk to me more simply, sorta like talking to a child, they even changed their tone of voice. They weren't a dick to me, in all honestly they were kind and clearly thought they were helping. It still sucked they thought I needed more help then the other guys.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
But how do you know the man is mansplaining and not just talking down to the woman then? Since you can't always assume these power dynamics to be in action.
Mansplaining also tends to have the element of the woman being 'mansplained' to understanding the situation to at least the same degree, a common example that does the rounds on social media is a guy explaining the point of a book to it's female author, and another chap explaining astrophysics badly to a female astrophysicist.

You can be condescending while knowing more than the person you are talking down to, plenty of men and women do that, but the combination of historical power dynamics in the workplace, bluffing and general assumption of the other parties ignorance is what makes 'mansplaining'. I think.

In any hobby, if a male poster assumes that any poster identified as female automatically knows less them them about a given topic purely because of that (and perhaps also partly because they might think that they are so geeky about it that no woman could match their mastery of relevant trivia or whatever), they might be prone to mansplaining it every now and then. I've rarely seen women do it to guys in quite the same way across loads of my hobbies from hiking to running to computer games.

Edit: I think I might have just mansplained Dary . :D
 
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petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
Not Surprised. Hell, even companies that are actually dedicated to fanservice and otaku pandering by trade (like Compile Heart) survive off of Western sales. CH in particular wouldn't stay afloat if not for Western demand. The demand is big enough in NA and the West in general, that Idea Factory opened a Western publishing house.

While I'm not particularly a fan of Compile Heart and their content (their games are shit). I'm expounding on the fact that a strong and reliable market for their content exists in the West.

This also has to do with focusing on PC. Neptunia Rebirth 1 has almost 400.000 owners on Steam. This trumps over PS3, PS4 and Vita sales. Crazy!
Western viewers interested in Japanese games are also a major factor, but considering that PS3, PS4 and Switch are becoming very expensive and risky for such endeavours, unless you are Atlus or Nintendo, PC and portables are the best platforms for such games
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
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Nov 16, 2017
3,124
I'm sure you have. Your whataboitism isn't really relevant here though.

There's a culture surrounding mansplaining. Sexist, patriarchal societal norms and structures. Boys Club privileges. Things women have to live through every day.

That's not dismissive of male issues, that's not saying the way you've been treated by condescending idiots is ok, but there's a clear difference.

You can see that right?

Patriarchal societal norms? Boys club privileges? Do you have any qualitative data that proves such things to exist?
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
Patriarchal societal norms? Boys club privileges? Do you have any qualitative data that proves such things to exist?

I've been privy to them all my life, and have benefited from them on many occasion.

If you don't know what they are women are describing examples ITT, and there are men here showing it off rather brazenly,
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
My personal "favourite" in regards to gaming is when a woman mentions she's playing a certain game, then loads of blokes pile in to suggest others she ought to play... "Did you know that there's a Kingdom Hearts 2?" "If you like Harvest Moon, you should try No Man's Sky!"

lmao I remember a guy irl flat out refused to believe I had played more Fire Emblem games than him a few years back when the series was still pretty niche
 
Nov 11, 2017
1,583
Software
My personal "favourite" in regards to gaming is when a woman mentions she's playing a certain game, then loads of blokes pile in to suggest others she ought to play... "Did you know that there's a Kingdom Hearts 2?" "If you like Harvest Moon, you should try No Man's Sky!"
The horror. Imagine someone suggesting you games..

EDIT: Anyway i came into this thread seeking knowledge but as of now my pov remains unchanged. I still think there are sexualized character but not en masse as other poster claim. BTW maybe you should try a non-condescending approach if you want to educate people.
 
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GraphicViolets

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Oct 25, 2017
985
Patriarchal societal norms? Boys club privileges? Do you have any qualitative data that proves such things to exist?
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that your questions were in good faith but that's very clearly disingenuous. I don't know what society you live in if you think women receive the same treatment that men do
 

NicasDream

Member
Oct 30, 2017
41
Mansplaining also tends to have the element of the woman being 'mansplained' to understanding the situation to at least the same degree, a common example that does the rounds on social media is a guy explaining the point of a book to it's female author, and another chap explaining astrophysics badly to a female astrophysicist.

You can be condescending while knowing more than the person you are talking down to, plenty of men and women do that, but the combination of historical power dynamics in the workplace, bluffing and general assumption of the other parties ignorance is what makes 'mansplaining'. I think.

In any hobby, if a male poster assumes that any poster identified as female automatically knows less them them about a given topic purely because of that (and perhaps also partly because they might think that they are so geeky about it that no woman could match their mastery of relevant trivia or whatever), they might be prone to mansplaining it every now and then. I've rarely seen women do it to guys in quite the same way across loads of my hobbies from hiking to running to computer games.
So you admit women do it there just Isn't a term? and honestly it has nothing to do with women
men do it to each other way more than they do it to women its just some fucked up ego shit
 

Velezcora

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Nov 16, 2017
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I gave you the benefit of the doubt that your questions were in good faith but that's very clearly disingenuous. I don't know what society you live in if you think women receive the same treatment that men do

I'm actually being dead serious here. I haven't seen any instance of women being at an systematic disadvantage in todays modern society. Yes there are social issues that we still need to conquer but I don't see nor have I ever benefited from a patriarchal structure in todays modern world. I grew up poor from a single parent family. I've had a lot of shit to deal with and nobody ever gave me a free pass for being a man. I've been talked down to by both men and women. People are assholes and when they can present themselves as being smarter than others they do it.
 

weemadarthur

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Oct 25, 2017
10,588
But how do you know the man is mansplaining and not just talking down to the woman then? Since you can't always assume these power dynamics to be in action.
Much like the difference between "looking at" and "leering", the difference is easily discernable to the subject, yet hard to explain in verbal format.
 

WaffleTaco

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,908
I'm actually being dead serious here. I haven't seen any instance of women being at an systematic disadvantage in todays modern society. Yes there are social issues that we still need to conquer but I don't see nor have I ever benefited from a patriarchal structure in todays modern world. I grew up poor from a single parent family. I've had a lot of shit to deal with and nobody ever gave me a free pass for being a man. I've been talked down to by both men and women. People are assholes and when they can present themselves as being smarter than others they do it.
You are a man, you are privileged. You have benefited from society by being a man.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
So you admit women do it there just Isn't a term? and honestly it has nothing to do with women
men do it to each other way more than they do it to women its just some fucked up ego shit
I'm struggling to get my head around your post. No, I didn't say women 'mansplain'. I said it required a peculiar mix of elements. However, yes, I said of course both men and women can be condescending. I thought I set out the difference between how I see the two in my post. Mansplaining is based in power dynamics, sexism and ignorance of the levels of knowledge in the conversation, but absolutely anyone can be a condescending arse.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
The first half yeah and the last 2 or 3 pages my heads spinning too =)
I just don't understand how the irony of your comment escaped you when it's surrounded by the posts it's surrounded by...


I'm actually being dead serious here. I haven't seen any instance of women being at an systematic disadvantage in todays modern society. Yes there are social issues that we still need to conquer but I don't see nor have I ever benefited from a patriarchal structure in todays modern world. I grew up poor from a single parent family. I've had a lot of shit to deal with and nobody ever gave me a free pass for being a man. I've been talked down to by both men and women. People are assholes and when they can present themselves as being smarter than others they do it.

No one is trying to take away from your own struggles here.

If you're asking this in good faith you should probably do a bit of research...
 

Velezcora

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 16, 2017
3,124
oh my god has this thread really devolved into "ok but does sexism REALLY exist"

I most certainly am not saying that. Of course sexism really exists. So does racism.
The argument is whether sexism is ingrained in our society to the point where it effects everyone.
I disagree. I see no evidence to support that.
 

Clix

Banned
User Banned (24 hour): Disingenuous explanation of a term at the expense of women's perspectives
What the hell is a mansplaining

It's not a thing. It's pretty much anyone who is condescending, whether man or woman. But somewhere down the line someone decreed that only guys can be condescending. It is also used as a catch all for someone disagreeing with a woman.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
I'm actually being dead serious here. I haven't seen any instance of women being at an systematic disadvantage in todays modern society. Yes there are social issues that we still need to conquer but I don't see nor have I ever benefited from a patriarchal structure in todays modern world. I grew up poor from a single parent family. I've had a lot of shit to deal with and nobody ever gave me a free pass for being a man. I've been talked down to by both men and women. People are assholes and when they can present themselves as being smarter than others they do it.
I implore you to read the responses to this AskWomen reddit thread, because the only way I can see you saying something like this unironically is if you're completely 100% ignorant of the reality of the matter.
 

Nothing

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,095
User was warned for invalidating others members' perspectives based on anecdotal evidence. The thread has many patient women and allies. Please listen to them.
I'm sorry that this bothers you so much. Personally I don't know many women that play console video games. So I don't really understand the perspective. All of the women I know spend time playing games on their phones and their tablets. I shop; a lot. I spend a great deal of time talking to other consumers and enthusiasts that are buying video games. They are pretty much all dudes. And when it is women, 7 out of 10 times they are buying for someone else. I had a lovely 15min conversation with a young mother just the other day that wanted to know all the ins and the outs of the Switch so she could buy one for her children.

If you want to boil it down to its most simplest nature, video games are made by guys, for guys. They are the ones driving the vast majority of the revenue on console game sales. There are plenty of guys that like these games. Developers are supplying things that meet this demand. Some developers are also fortunate enough to create their own vision free from outside control. So they can make whatever they want to make. If a good percentage of people are repulsed by a title, then it won't sell well, and future iterations likely won't get financially supported. But they do sell well. Because people like them. The vast majority of people don't have any problems of principle with either MGS V or FF XV.

I, too, am surprised there aren't more women making video games directed towards women. That way you could look past many of the games that were obviously made for other audiences. I'm not sure why there aren't more women making video games. I'll admit that I don't know much about the barriers in the industry that prevent more women from making games. But everywhere I go, everywhere I shop, everywhere I have conversations online, it's mostly dudes. If there were more women buying console video games I'm sure that you'd see more console games for women. It's kind of a catch22.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
Ugh, I'll continue reading but I'll shut up for now. Not my place, I just wanted to lend my voice.

This thread is a mess. You people are saints.

oh my god has this thread really devolved into "ok but does sexism REALLY exist"

But... life is hard for everyone so how can it be real?
 
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psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I most certainly am not saying that. Of course sexism really exists. So does racism.
The argument is whether sexism is ingrained in our society to the point where it effects everyone.
I disagree. I see no evidence to support that.

literally just listen to women's experiences, there's your ~evidence~

If life is hard for everyone so how can it be real?

how can sexism be real when I, A Man, haven't experienced it,
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
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Oct 25, 2017
985
I'm actually being dead serious here. I haven't seen any instance of women being at an systematic disadvantage in todays modern society. Yes there are social issues that we still need to conquer but I don't see nor have I ever benefited from a patriarchal structure in todays modern world. I grew up poor from a single parent family. I've had a lot of shit to deal with and nobody ever gave me a free pass for being a man. I've been talked down to by both men and women. People are assholes and when they can present themselves as being smarter than others they do it.
Being a guy doesn't automatically make your life better. It just prevents the things that happen to women from happening to you. Shitty things happen to everyone. They rarely happen to men specifically because of their gender but women have to deal with that daily
 
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