As someone said a while back, despite the title this thread has become an OT of sorts with people venting, sharing experiences and thoughts on various games and instances of fanservice.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- Status
As someone said a while back, despite the title this thread has become an OT of sorts with people venting, sharing experiences and thoughts on various games and instances of fanservice.
LttP threads are a thing around here.
In any case, it hasn't stopped people who passionately do not care about the topic to come in that thread and constantly derail it, but for some reason your ire doesn't seem to be aimed that way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last edited:
Now...this thread is over 200 pages. Admittedly I have not read through it all.Yes, it's wonderful.
But on this topic, while I agree that women are often sexualized in games....it strikes me that men are, very often represented in this way also...and I can't help but wonder if this has been addressed in the last couple hundred pages.
I mean...we all too often see this as a male archetype
Now...this thread is over 200 pages. Admittedly I have not read through it all.
But on this topic, while I agree that women are often sexualized in games....it strikes me that men are, very often represented in this way also...and I can't help but wonder if this has been addressed in the last couple hundred pages.
I mean...we all too often see this as a male archetype
I'm sure there is nothing as sexy as an angry middle aged dude with pale skin, that looks in need of a shower and has a scar that crosses his belly.
Have you even played God of War?
Now...this thread is over 200 pages. Admittedly I have not read through it all.
But on this topic, while I agree that women are often sexualized in games....it strikes me that men are, very often represented in this way also...and I can't help but wonder if this has been addressed in the last couple hundred pages.
I mean...we all too often see this as a male archetype
Ask women here if they think Kratos is sexy lol
It's not as simple as showing skin = sexualized, there's more to it. Posing, characterization, camerawork...
New kratos is probably more attractive than kratos has ever been, mostly because he shows some vulnerability other than hyper masculine angry asshole. :P
I mean, I can say the same think about large breasted pale skin vampires in Darkstalkers...but just as with your response.....it's moot. I can shed your opinions as silly as I don't personally find these women sexy, but I'm addressing your opinions seriously. ..perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss my words.
This is an "ideal" male characters are held to, it has exaggerated "masculine" features and personality. And is literally the male equivalent of what the OP is talking about.
So should I write off overly sexualized and idealized women represented in games as,
yeah but who would find that sexy anyway?
As mentioned earlier, ol Kratos here embodies the common description used for men in romance novels, so statistically, to answer your question, a lot of women find these characteristics sexy. And a very high percentage of male game "heroes" have been represented in this fashion since the beginning of gaming.
If you want to claim that the "conan" type is simply not sexy. And you don't see how it creates a ridiculous archetype for men to have to look up to, or strive to be...then you are simply in denial.
I mean, the point of this thread is to address unrealistic and oversexualized women in games....but you are ignoring that it really has been a practice of unrealistic standards for both men AND women since the dawn of gaming.
Or do you think that only women are oversexualized and misrepresented in this image? Or can you see how both sexes are held to a completely ridiculous standard...one that still exists to this very day.
Am I the only one that sees this as unrealistic for both sexes?
As a woman, I can confirm that I think that Kratos is not sexy (but it's just my opinion, maybe some women do!)
New Kratos looks a bit better though.
Ask yourself these questions: what was the intent behind Kratos's design? What is his design supposed to convey?
Kratos is an angry, powerful warrior that kicks some gods' asses, right?
Now take Zangief from Street Fighter: he just has underpants, he's big and very muscular.
Is the goal of his design to depict him as someone sexy? Nope. He's supposed to be a very strong wrestler.
Also, do the games where they appear sexualize them?
Do they do sexy poses or does the camera focus on body parts that can be seen as sexual? I don't think so.
So, even if Kratos does show skin, he's not sexualized at all. The intent of the developers was not to make him titillating.
The outfit can play a role in sexualization but the way characters are represented is important too.
New Kratos looks a bit better though.
Now...this thread is over 200 pages. Admittedly I have not read through it all.
But on this topic, while I agree that women are often sexualized in games....it strikes me that men are, very often represented in this way also...and I can't help but wonder if this has been addressed in the last couple hundred pages.
I mean...we all too often see this as a male archetype
Ask yourself these questions: what was the intent behind Kratos's design? What is his design supposed to convey?
Kratos is an angry, powerful warrior that kicks some gods' asses, right?
Now take Zangief from Street Fighter: he just has underpants, he's big and very muscular.
Is the goal of his design to depict him as someone sexy? Nope. He's supposed to be a very strong wrestler.
Also, do the games where they appear sexualize them?
Do they do sexy poses or does the camera focus on body parts that can be seen as sexual? I don't think so.
So, even if Kratos does show skin, he's not sexualized at all. The intent of the developers was not to make him titillating.
The outfit can play a role in sexualization but the way characters are represented is important too.
https://www.google.com.au/search?client=ms-android-samsung&biw=412&bih=436&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=0C3TWs36EdTQ8wXx3I_ADQ&q=romance+novels+covers&oq=romance+novels+covers&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.3..0.1309.3129..3885...0....327.1589.0j2j4j1..........1..mobile-gws-wiz-img.......0i8i30j0i24.mVjnaQzJoX0=
I don't see a lot of bald and pale men.
Also take note of the poses and situations depicted.
I mean, I can say the same think about large breasted pale skin vampires in Darkstalkers...but just as with your response.....it's moot. I can shed your opinions as silly as I don't personally find these women sexy, but I'm addressing your opinions seriously. ..perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss my words.
This is an "ideal" male characters are held to, it has exaggerated "masculine" features and personality. And is literally the male equivalent of what the OP is talking about.
So should I write off overly sexualized and idealized women represented in games as,
yeah but who would find that sexy anyway?
As mentioned earlier, ol Kratos here embodies the common description used for men in romance novels, so statistically, to answer your question, a lot of women find these characteristics sexy. And a very high percentage of male game "heroes" have been represented in this fashion since the beginning of gaming.
If you want to claim that the "conan" type is simply not sexy. And you don't see how it creates a ridiculous archetype for men to have to look up to, or strive to be...then you are simply in denial.
I mean, the point of this thread is to address unrealistic and oversexualized women in games....but you are ignoring that it really has been a practice of unrealistic standards for both men AND women since the dawn of gaming.
Or do you think that only women are oversexualized and misrepresented in this image? Or can you see how both sexes are held to a completely ridiculous standard...one that still exists to this very day.
Am I the only one that sees this as unrealistic for both sexes?
I think you are confusing 2 issues
Even though I'll defend blatant sexualization and objectification in games of female characters, there's no doubt the scales are vastly skewed to show women in that light compared to men
However If you wanna discuss the body image / pressure issue, then yeah I'm right there with ya, I feel men have the perfect muscle bod hero shoved in your face just as much as women have the thin body presented as ideal to them
I do think those are different
You are incorrect.
Sexy...for men, since the dawn of time, has not been posing in alluring stances has it?
Ask yourself what is "sexy" in terms of men? Flipping their hair and giggling?
Nope we are told we need to be stoic and "manly". Man up, as they often say.
So yes. Men flexing their giant muscles and being stoic and heroic is very much what is "expected" of men in terms of sexiness.
How deeply in denial would you have to be to think that the only way for a man to be sexualized is him being spread eagle posing like a playboy bunny? Is that how sexy men are?
No they are the conan, the muscular pool boy working hard and sweating under the sun. Alpha personality...etc
Do you not often see women gravitate toward strong, stoic, and tough men?
You are trying to claim that sexiness can only be represented by feminine actions. That couldn't be more incorrect. I would ask that you read up on how sex appeal is represented in men since the dawn of time...and the unrealistic standards that sets for men in society.
Oh yeah? Explain why manly men are so popular in romance novels? Why millions and millions of women buy books with Fabio on the cover?
I mean, I can say the same think about large breasted pale skin vampires in Darkstalkers...but just as with your response.....it's moot. I can shed your opinions as silly as I don't personally find these women sexy, but I'm addressing your opinions seriously. ..perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss my words.
This is an "ideal" male characters are held to, it has exaggerated "masculine" features and personality. And is literally the male equivalent of what the OP is talking about.
So should I write off overly sexualized and idealized women represented in games as,
yeah but who would find that sexy anyway?
As mentioned earlier, ol Kratos here embodies the common description used for men in romance novels, so statistically, to answer your question, a lot of women find these characteristics sexy. And a very high percentage of male game "heroes" have been represented in this fashion since the beginning of gaming.
If you want to claim that the "conan" type is simply not sexy. And you don't see how it creates a ridiculous archetype for men to have to look up to, or strive to be...then you are simply in denial.
I mean, the point of this thread is to address unrealistic and oversexualized women in games....but you are ignoring that it really has been a practice of unrealistic standards for both men AND women since the dawn of gaming.
Or do you think that only women are oversexualized and misrepresented in this image? Or can you see how both sexes are held to a completely ridiculous standard...one that still exists to this very day.
Am I the only one that sees this as unrealistic for both sexes?
As someone who hasn't participated in the thread but has read the entire thing, your points have already been made and addressed ad nauseum. Kratos was designed to be a male power fantasy, not for sexual titillation.
If you feel so strongly about the perceived double standard, I'd politely suggest creating a new thread about unrealistic/objectified male character designs, because the constant whataboutism from people who haven't read this thread is seriously tiresome.
Also that's very much a western view.
Male attraction is different for Japan and Korea, for example.
And judging by the western K-pop and even anime fangirls it is a lot more universal than just how it is for the east.
Male attraction is different for Japan and Korea, for example.
And judging by the western K-pop and even anime fangirls it is a lot more universal than just how it is for the east.
You don't think being seen as a sexualized able and powerful man who can pleasure dozens of women at once sets an unrealistic standard? I'm sorry but I can't help but find this all quite amusing.
I guess Vin Diesel, and The Rock, and Arnold and Sly and all the other tough "I give no fucks" dudes are simply not sexy at all to a majority of women out there?
The unrealistic standard is for me, he is a power fantasy for primarily male gamers not a sexual object to be ogled at be female or gay gamers. I'm sure some people find him attractive but Kratos is not designed as a sex object.
But this has been discussed ad neasum in plenty of places
Now...this thread is over 200 pages. Admittedly I have not read through it all.
But on this topic, while I agree that women are often sexualized in games....it strikes me that men are, very often represented in this way also...and I can't help but wonder if this has been addressed in the last couple hundred pages.
I mean...we all too often see this as a male archetype
Not a woman, but Kratos is the opposite of sexy (save for two friends of mine who likes burly, brutish men)
Kratos is the male power fantasy incarnate.
There's not really too many sexualized men in gaming, if any.
Wait what, this is not what I said.
I perfectly know that men cannot be sexualized in the same way as women or else it would look like a parody lol
And again, I repeat: the intent behind his design was not to make him sexy.
I also just want to quickly add that the societal expectation of we men to be masculine and stoic, etc is absolutely an issue and a topic that merits discussion. I just don't think this is the right thread for it.
I'd forgotten Mr Darcy looks like he belongs at Wrestlemania.
That sounds like a male fantasy.
I'm sure there a lots of women who find Kratos sexy, but I'm pretty sure he was designed as a male power fantasy.
I think the only thing you really need to do is put men in the same poses as women in typical games and you'll quickly understand that there's nothing equivalent about the treatment.
Regardless Django, this isn't a thread for you to air your grievances about the unfair treatment of men in the first place, or at the very least you should do it by talking about toxic masculinity as something that's relevant to the context of how females are affected (i.e, that false toughness and idealism leading to various forms of abuse towards women being "accepted" by society).
Yes, I agree with this. Toxic masculinity also affects men in a very negative way.
It's not a matter of whataboutism. It's that often in fiction, both men and women are held to ridiculous standards.
And if you think Kratos is a male power fantasy, you are correct. All the meat head COD gamers out there have been brainwashed since birth to believe this is what a man should be.
If I'm the only one who sees the issue with that, and both sexes being held to very unrealistic portrays....something is wrong here.
Are women oversexualized in games, absolutely, just as men are. Just as they are in film.
If you think this is only how men want men to be, please refer to the sales numbers of harlequin romance novels.
I've, since my original post, gone and read through this massive tome. And no...this hasn't been addressed, only denied, and dismissed. Just like you are doing now.
It seems to be a common issue with people wanting to discuss serious issues. They just want it discussed from one side, and selfishly ignore all angles.
You want to talk about sexualized inequality but you only want to talk about it as it pertains to women? "Equality" invites that you are making a comparison? So how can you make a comparison without addressing what you are comparing from both sides?
If you simply want to ignore one side of a comparison...then you aren't really dissecting the issue at all are you?
If that is the former you want this discussion to take...then you don't want a discussion at all, just a forum to bitch and complain without actually engaging anyone aside from to dismiss any idea that interferes with your own.
Posing men like women would make zero sense, as both sexes are held to very different expectations for what is "sexy" so clearly it wouldn't be sexy for men to pose this way, as they have a completely different ridiculous set of poses that are considered sexy.
This is exactly the place to discuss this. How can you discuss the misrepresentation of women in games without having something to compare it to? There are very few sexes represented in gaming. ..so the needed comparison is quite clear.
Besides, being dismissive doesn't help your discussion...it simply makes you look like a wall that isn't worth discussing anything with.
Well think about it this way. Are those male characters who are designed to be powerful and dominating designed in a way that makes them look powerful and dominating?
Are those female characters who are meant to be powerful and dominating designed in a way that make them look powerful and dominating?
Also you seem to like ignoring a lot of points for someone complaining about "bitch and complain without actually engaging anyone aside from to dismiss any idea that interferes with your own."
I don't think it really works as equality, because its much more of a joke outfit on men. Better than there only being the female version, though.
At the end, sexualization works different between men and women and that's party because we men controlled how to depict sexualization for so much time.
A dude showing his pecs can be sexy for women, but it's also a power fantasy for men. You're denying yourself if a lot of men don't want the Conan body, not just to look hot but to be strong.
Now, look at the other side and take a woman with big tits, what power fantasy does that give to women? I would say not much, other than attrack men (so again, it's all about men) or I guess if you're a fan of back pain.
Sexualization has been shown in media for so much to men to look strong and dominating, and women to look weak and provocative. Why do you think its like that? Who did that?
We can talk about both putting pressure in each gender and there's truth in this but they re FAR from being comparable, especially when we us dudes where the ones that did the "guidelines" (in our favor, of course). At the end, toxic masculinity is an issue we men put onto ourselves.
A dude showing his pecs can be sexy for women, but it's also a power fantasy for men. You're denying yourself if a lot of men don't want the Conan body, not just to look hot but to be strong.
Now, look at the other side and take a woman with big tits, what power fantasy does that give to women? I would say not much, other than attrack men (so again, it's all about men) or I guess if you're a fan of back pain.
Sexualization has been shown in media for so much to men to look strong and dominating, and women to look weak and provocative. Why do you think its like that? Who did that?
We can talk about both putting pressure in each gender and there's truth in this but they re FAR from being comparable, especially when we us dudes where the ones that did the "guidelines" (in our favor, of course). At the end, toxic masculinity is an issue we men put onto ourselves.
I think it is necessary to know the differences between how men are idealized by men and how they are idealized by women, then how women are idealized by men and how they are idealized by women. I think they are not the same things even if we can find some similarities.
I mean no...why would the dude from gauntlet not be wearing full body armor?
My god...do you actually think that this is how warrior dudes looked back in the day? That is how brainwashed you are?
No. They don't look powerful and dominating in a realistic sense. They are wearing zero defense so as to show off their massive bulging muscles.
This is exactly the blind one sided brainwashing I'm referring to....where you think it's acceptable and normal for a guy to be represented like this.
And you are denying that a lot of women want a sexy body and big breasts and to be able to hold themselves with confidence while owning their sexuality.
What is your point? Clearly this goes both ways. You think women don't help perpetuate this ideal for men? And men don't perpetuate this ideal for women?
It needs to be addressed from both sides.
I'm a man, and I don't want crazy big muscles or to fuck 20 women at once. I have enough trouble disappointing one woman at a time :p
Power fantasy is still objectification, just not catered exclusively to women
As for actual fanservice, jrgs usually have a cast of pretty bois to go along with the pretty girls. Not a surprise the jrpg fanbase is quite balanced
That's the thing, it's all unrealistic.
But it's unrealistic in a way to serve as a depiction of strength. Do you think a mass of muscles (which isn't really that sexy except for certain stylings) is not meant to look strong? Do you think women with waif-ish bodies with barely any muscle tone and big boobs are meant to look strong?
It's less about what's realistic and more about the egregious separation of character intent vs design.
Also you using brainwashing at the merest suggestion doesn't paint a great picture. Calm your farm dude.
And that's exactly WHY Kratos is a Power fantasy
He's all bulging, bare muscles with no armor at all, and yet he emerges victorious. He becomes a literal god ffs
Stop it dude, it's tiring and it has been discussed to death in the thread. Enough is enough
User Banned (3 Days): Thread derailment, hostility.
Actually it's been dismissed to death in this thread.
Bayonetta is sexy and confident and powerful without the need to wear armor or have bulging muscles. And she emerges victorious with little effort. So I guess she is a power fantasy too huh?
I mean she was designed by a woman after all.
Also it's about diversity of types. Kratos and your classic barbarian archetype are nowhere close to being the only type of male design in gaming.
Good luck finding female character designs that aren't above 30 and conform to the general hollywood/anime standard of attractive design.
Men are allowed to be ugly. Men are allowed to grow old. Hell, even Kratos grew old.
Good luck finding female character designs that aren't above 30 and conform to the general hollywood/anime standard of attractive design.
Men are allowed to be ugly. Men are allowed to grow old. Hell, even Kratos grew old.
Brainwashing is me referring to the fact that men truly believe this is appealing, not all but many. I would refer to it as "toxic masculinity" but I find the word toxic is so low-brow and just describes a lack of depth in terms of understanding.
Yes, i think Bayonetta is a Power Fantasy, and that's fine in my book (Actually i'm kind of a Bayonetta fan)
What isn't fine is denouncing double standars when there actually isn't any. There's blatant female objectification everywhere when there's barely any in the male side. Moreso, if a male character is objectified it gets beaten to a pulp, and the developer usually forced to redesign it.
Since I'm going to assume you've played God of War, I'd like to ask you one thing: do you really feel that Kratos is, in any moment during the game, shown in a sexualized fashion? I'm talking about the way it's referred by others, by the way the camera treats him. The only instance where you could kind of bring this point up, is during the sexy minigames, where the woman in question will say something suggestive to bring you to her bed, where... I'll say that the aim isn't precisely to sexualize him.
Designs don't exist in a vacuum, sexualization is a matter of many more things than "wohoo dude is shirtless". Kratos design is obviously inspired by the precoceived ideas people have from how an Spartan warrior looks like.
There are differences between sexualization and power fantasies, and you're mixing both of them. And then putting words in my mouth, with the Conan example. First, bring it, then, let me answer, then make your point. Power fantasy characters can be seen as sexy, and women have certainly took advantage of those because there aren't that many example of actual sexualization. But again, designs don't exist in a vacuum. The same design can be seen as one or the other depending on context. A woman in a cocktail dress can be both depending on the context.
There is your "serious" answer, which I'm not totally sold if I should have written, because the more I read about yours the more I feel you aren't arguing with good faith. But lets give you the benefit of the doubt.
To everyone else, hi, it's been a while. I have been lurking the threat but I had stuff to take care of and I didn't feel I had much to say (or enough time to write) lately.
Oh trust me, I know about toxic masculinity. But I don't find your premise true at all? Maybe because I'm not straight, but I've found way more aesthetic heroes than just beefcakes lol.
If anything my ideal look would be like Ash for KoF. Look at this sexy motherfucker.
- Status