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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Yeah, the sexualization in Xenoblade 2 actually gets worse the further you progress. Pyra is nothing compared to the designs of some of the characters revealed later.

Which is hilarious because

Pneuma is perhaps the most tame of the three forms Pyra/Mythra have. And there's a narrative reason behind this too as the final form in which our main heroine is done wearing the most objectified outfits is the point where Rex starts treating her like a person than putting her on a pedestal. This would be a meaningful point...you know...if it wasn't for Poppi's third form, Nia's true form, and the other Blades just destroying this point to the ground...
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,301
Going back to alien/monstrous female designs, I do want to give props to Young Justice and Supergirl for their designs of Miss Martians true form. It would have been so easy for them to either ignore her white martian backstory or make the design more sexualized.
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Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Going back to alien/monstrous female designs, I do want to give props to Young Justice and Supergirl for their designs of Miss Martians true form. It would have been so easy for them to either ignore her white martian backstory or make the design more sexualized.
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That's really cool. Makes a change from She-Hulk/Starfire etc.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
After the death of your colleague you're sent to his home, where you harass and creepily hit on his 14 year old daughter. Also that shower scene is incredibly messed up, I believe there's nudity and smelling of her underwear in Japanese version. It's really bad.
wow, Kojima is such an amazing game dev :) what a genius :)
I miss when Fire Emblem characters looked like this:

tumblr_o77cwjFKtV1v83vjro1_500.jpg
The armor design in Radiant Dawn was really good. They struck the perfect balance between practical and not boring, imo.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
There's always an undercurrent of sexual frustration from writers like Kojima. Hell, you could probably argue MGS3 is him ejaculating a major Oedipal complex across our screen...
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
Going back to alien/monstrous female designs, I do want to give props to Young Justice and Supergirl for their designs of Miss Martians true form. It would have been so easy for them to either ignore her white martian backstory or make the design more sexualized.
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Wow, that's beautiful. Props to the designers. Still a bit anthrocentric in terms of the humanoid stance and limbs, but I always appreciate alien designs deviating from the human form in meaningful ways.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
That was a looooooooong read. I almost wish I didn't read it. I never realized MGS1 was that sexist.

I still maintain The Boss is one of the better written female badasses I've ever seen in games but she doesn't counter balance all the rest. And the more time passes the more I think The Boss had a lot to do with Kojima's then co writer. Once Kojima got rid of him for MGS4 and beyond it fucking showed
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
So I'm playing Final Fantasy 12 and while I enjoy it, Ashe is wearing the most unpractical and dumbest outfit ever (also why is there a veil on Fran's stomach?)


Like where do I even BEGIN, even looking at it from the back it's just unbelievable. It's like she went to the royal Dalmascan tailor and told him 'Just fuck my shit up' and went about taking pieces of clothing and cutting stuff out from them. What is even up with those footwear?

Some of the main characters in FF12 have really absurd clothing, like Vaan and Basche. What I find even most weird is with Vossler
FcweIw9.jpg


WHY IS THERE A BELT AROUND HIS NECK?! WHAT KINDA FASHION STATEMENT IS HE TRYING TO GIVE?!

Thankfully Balthier dresses like the classy leading man that he is
80iW5ZB.png
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
Honestly as a hobbyist leathercrafter all I can think about is how much he must have paid to do that much leather carving/detailing. :P
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,482
When I say "fail states" I meant as in a way to completely derail relationships, like you can in P3 (where, iirc, attempting to cheat on someone reverses and locks out their social link).

Wasn't sure if the modern standard was to encourage harems because, you know, gotta play to that male power fantasy!
Part of the problem with P3 is that it gives players no choice in regards to those relationships. Not only does entering into a romantic relationship with the women who have Social Links factor in early on, it's automatic once it reaches that point and is the only way to max the S. Links for everyone in the game. By comparison, P4 and P5 leave it up to the player to decide whether to pursue such a relationship or just remain friends, and the moment doesn't come until later. It's quite plausible to end the game without dating anyone and still max every bond, if one so chooses. P4 was more lax with link reversals/breaks by limiting them to only two characters and as a consequence for decisions that were more obviously bad ones, yes, with P5 of course not having them at all with its Confidants. Considering that such a thing only added a needless layer of micromanagement in a game that already had plenty of things to keep track of, not to mention S. Links reversing and/or breaking if they don't get to hang out with you as much as you like suggesting that said characters have nothing else going on in their lives if they could be bothered to take it so personally, I can't say that mechanic is missed one bit.

If anything, P3's "can't max'em if you don't date'em" approach and the weird lack of S. Links for any of the male party members in your group (a mistake that neither P4 nor P5 made) arguably encouraged building a harem in ways that its successors didn't. That said, P5 could've used more than one woman who wasn't dateable (and whose bond didn't rank up automatically with the story anyway).
 
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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949

Christ, what did women do to Kojima for him to hate us so much?

Christ, more like what did Kojima do to this person? I made it about half-way through before I just had to stop. It read clearly as someone coming in with an agenda and thus attempting to twist and stretch everything to align with their narrative. Even when they are clearly missing the point of the game's themes.

Like, you can criticize a good amount of Kojima's writing, but this is just pure angst with no objectivity.
 

Kodama

Banned
Feb 7, 2018
303
Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure.
As someone who's been gaming since the late 80's, I'd like know where this "idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure" came from. I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but I've never met a single man who referred to women this way, and gamers in general seem to be even more respectful of women than the average non-gaming man I come across. I can certainly see why you would jump to the conclusion that all the skimpy outfits are communicating such a message, but the message in question doesn't really seem to be communicated at a human level... again anecdotally in my world...
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
As someone who's been gaming since the late 80's, I'd like know where this "idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure" came from. I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but I've never met a single man who referred to women this way, and gamers in general seem to be even more respectful of women than the average non-gaming man I come across. I can certainly see why you would jump to the conclusion that all the skimpy outfits are communicating such a message, but the message in question doesn't really seem to be communicated at a human level... again anecdotally in my world...

Ehh, gonna have to doubt that when women gets a lot of sexist shit told when they dare to use voice chat in-game (let alone other stuff like the "flirt" in online games and communities, the "show your tits" spam in Twitch streams, the downplaying on sexist representation in forums, etc etc etc) I mean, gaming had the Gamergate movement, that pretty much speaks for themselves IMO.

About the first part, well, tell me, what's the purpose of having dudes fully covered and girls wearing skimpy outfits other than male titilation? That the player doesn't treat real women like objects doesn't mean that they want their female character as a titilating objects.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Christ, more like what did Kojima do to this person? I made it about half-way through before I just had to stop. It read clearly as someone coming in with an agenda and thus attempting to twist and stretch everything to align with their narrative. Even when they are clearly missing the point of the game's themes.

Like, you can criticize a good amount of Kojima's writing, but this is just pure angst with no objectivity.
Go play Snatcher and Policenauts.
Or better yet, if you're going to criticize something, read the whole thing and make actual points.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Go play Snatcher and Policenauts.
Or better yet, if you're going to criticize something, read the whole thing and make actual points.

I've played Snatcher, to say it is "problematic" is an understatement. However, MGS1 is not Snatcher. And, the stretching the author does to keep to their narrative broke my interest.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
I mean, in my anecdotal experience, when it comes to women, gamers, as a whole, are awful. Really awful.
I pretty much have the same thoughts. I mean when gamers got wind of Anita's women versus tropes campaign, instead of just ignoring it (which I think would have benefited them so much), they made threats towards her, flash games where you could beat her up, and tried to doxx her. This continued even once the videos started coming out, including that bomb/gun threat at a college campus she was planning to speak at. Her videos are basic feminism 101 topics overall, yet people were acting as if she said all GTA/Mario players should kill themselves.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I've played Snatcher, to say it is "problematic" is an understatement. However, MGS1 is not Snatcher. And, the stretching the author does to keep to their narrative broke my interest.
Do you have any arguments besides "I disagree"?
Anyway, Kojima is a disgusting misogynist. Plan and simple. Anyone who doesn't see that is deluding themselves.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I mean, I never got how this turned into a Kojima is a misogynist personally. I think there are tons of examples where he does the exact same thing to male characters


Now my point is not that the objectification of women is not problematic or even that its on the same volume as with the men, but I dont think Kojima as a person is looking to hate women, I think he just more open with sexuality in general. I dont know if its a cultural thing or what have you, but I think we should be able to criticize the work rather than just blanket Kojima hates women.
 

Kodama

Banned
Feb 7, 2018
303
User Banned (3 Days): Disingenuous arguments.
I pretty much have the same thoughts. I mean when gamers got wind of Anita's women versus tropes campaign, instead of just ignoring it (which I think would have benefited them so much), they made threats towards her, flash games where you could beat her up, and tried to doxx her. This continued even once the videos started coming out, including that bomb/gun threat at a college campus she was planning to speak at. Her videos are basic feminism 101 topics overall, yet people were acting as if she said all GTA/Mario players should kill themselves.
This is the opposite of anecdotal evidence though lol. This is a few fringe crazy people doing crazy things as reported by the media. We don't judge an entire group of people for that kinda stuff, right?

Most gamers in general don't even know who Anita is. The point I was trying to make is I've never heard ANY man ever say anything like "women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure" or believes that in any way. The few people who do think like that are social outcasts that don't get alot with the rest of society. At least that's how I see it...
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Gamers are respectful tho

lc09qx0mcwd01.png
Yeah, I always find calling someone a bitch while pasting illiterate text boasting of sexual prowess over a picture of an infamous fictional psychopath to be 'respectful' of them.
The whole 'jock' secondary school tribe thing is an oddball American curiosity I thought died out a while ago too. Is it still really a thing? Admittedly my entire knowledge of US school culture is through the medium of Saved by the Bell, The Breakfast Club and The Faculty, so my references may be slightly dated :D

Reminds me of this
7qsk39.png

"Stop saying we're prone to violence. There's loads of us *threatens consequences*."

'Gamers' are more likely to be awful in online spaces because those online gaming spaces struggle to discourage both the low-level and major toxicity IMO. My wife won't use speech or character names etc online that imply she is female with randoms because the odds of some weirdo gaming tosser creeping out on her or veering into outright aggression at the slightest interaction are fairly high.
 
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Kodama

Banned
Feb 7, 2018
303
Yeah, I always find calling someone a bitch while pasting illiterate text boasting of sexual prowess over a picture of an infamous fictional psychopath to be 'respectful' of them.

'Gamers' are more likely to be awful in online spaces because those online gaming spaces struggle to discourage both the low-level and major toxicity IMO. My wife won't use speech or character names etc online that imply she is female with randoms because the odds of some weirdo gaming tosser creeping out on her or veering into outright aggression at the slightest interaction are fairly high.
While I agree 100%, think about what you're saying. Those odds that 1 person out of the several hundred she will interact with online will be a creep does not make those other guys creeps...
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
Do you have any arguments besides "I disagree"?
Anyway, Kojima is a disgusting misogynist. Plan and simple. Anyone who doesn't see that is deluding themselves.

I love absolutisms. And no, I don't feel like retorting to a "dead" blog post, that is about 50 or so pages long, on mobile, just to satisfy you. The author already started to lose me when they decided to dismiss Otacon, they neared the deep end by inserting weird homophobia into the mix, and then lost me once and for all by trying to state that Decoy Octopus was tantamount to black face.

Sorry, but as a black dude I don't need to read that shit. I didn't bother to look up the author, but something tells me they aren't black. Go make your point without trying to invoke racism when you don't know what you're talking about.
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,000
Yeah, I always find calling someone a bitch while pasting illiterate text boasting of sexual prowess over a picture of an infamous fictional psychopath to be 'respectful' of them.

Honestly, the picture is just so perfect that I have a feeling it might be satire.

"Gamers", respectful towards women? Respectful in general? Fucking lol. This is the only gaming focused forum I have the energy to read, and even here I usually stick to communities and OTs.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
I pretty much have the same thoughts. I mean when gamers got wind of Anita's women versus tropes campaign, instead of just ignoring it (which I think would have benefited them so much), they made threats towards her, flash games where you could beat her up, and tried to doxx her. This continued even once the videos started coming out, including that bomb/gun threat at a college campus she was planning to speak at. Her videos are basic feminism 101 topics overall, yet people were acting as if she said all GTA/Mario players should kill themselves.

But but but #notallgamers!

I've a friend who would love to try her hand at streaming, but she won't because she knows just how fucking creepy gamers can be.

"But not all gamers!"

I think there are tons of examples where he does the exact same thing to male characters

I mean, his treatment of male characters could easily be interpreted as a projection of his own self-loathing. As I said earlier, MGS3 is all a bit Oedipal when it comes down to it.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
I mean, his treatment of male characters could easily be interpreted as a projection of his own self-loathing. As I said earlier, MGS3 is all a bit Oedipal when it comes down to it.
I mean its across multiple games, the images I had were from 2, 3, 4 and PW. Im not sure what you mean by the Oedipus complex in MGS3, ya there is a lot of respect between Boss and Snake, but I dont think it was ever sexualized. The boss is played really seriously the whole game and I would think is one of the stronger female characters in gaming personally
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
While I agree 100%, think about what you're saying. Those odds that 1 person out of the several hundred she will interact with online will be a creep does not make those other guys creeps...
It's far more than '1 in several hundred'. I never said they are all like that (and hey, I occasionally play online games too, and presumably so do some people in this thread). What I did say is that the odds of a gaming crowd containing creepers and aggressive oddballs seems to be fairly high even compared to other online communities. There are various other online communities/chatrooms we talk to about our hobbies (mainly outdoors stuff), and while being a touch obsessive about the subject matter is found everywhere (and such folk can also be wonderful sources of information in any hobby), gaming is by far the online one with the greater percentage of creepers the minute someone is identified as female.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
While I agree 100%, think about what you're saying. Those odds that 1 person out of the several hundred she will interact with online will be a creep does not make those other guys creeps...
From my anecdotal experience, it is more than 1 out of several hundreds. I have gotten messages calling me baby, honey, and kissing mentions from multiple men. I do not even play online that much, just post in PSN communities.
 

Kodama

Banned
Feb 7, 2018
303
From my anecdotal experience, it is more than 1 out of several hundreds. I have gotten messages calling me baby, honey, and kissing mentions from multiple men. I do not even play online that much, just post in PSN communities.
We've really deviated from what I was trying to explore. I guess that's impossible here... oh well, thanks for trying to help...
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
There are various other online communities/chatrooms we talk to about our hobbies (mainly outdoors stuff), and while being a touch obsessive about the subject matter is found everywhere (and such folk can also be wonderful sources of information in any hobby), gaming is by far the online one with the greater percentage of creepers.

Gaming and anime, though there's a fair amount of crossover between the two.

(I guess this is where someone accuses me of hating anime/Japan/Japanese people, despite the fact I have a fecking Sailor Moon inspired avatar.)
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
I think it's more that any community that is male dominant.

I can't think of any male-dominant communities that won't have creeps.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Honestly, the picture is just so perfect that I have a feeling it might be satire.

"Gamers", respectful towards women? Respectful in general? Fucking lol. This is the only gaming focused forum I have the energy to read, and even here I usually stick to communities and OTs.
Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, no one would really use a pic of The Joker to display themselves as the right choice for a 'respectful' relationship, would they? Is he an icon for 'cool' or a meme or something?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Gaming and anime, though there's a fair amount of crossover between the two.

(I guess this is where someone accuses me of hating anime/Japan/Japanese people, despite the fact I have a fecking Sailor Moon inspired avatar.)
I think gaming/comics/anime etc has a huge crossover, that's understandable. It's when it moves into adults that I find the social skills dropoff really weird. If we go to a hiking/outdoor swimming/running meet, it's full of people who are capable of talking to each other both online and in person without being weird. There's often still a male bias- often women (even if they are the stronger athlete/hiker) will be married to/partners with one of the guys whereas there's still far more single guys in groups of friends than single women. If we go to a comics convention or a wargames shop (the latter being one of my passions, the former hers)? Most people will be awesome, friendly and helpful but that percentage of oddballs starts creeping (literally in some cases) up.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
I think gaming/comics/anime etc has a huge crossover, that's understandable. It's when it moves into adults that I find the social skills dropoff really weird. If we go to a hiking/outdoor swimming/running meet, it's full of people who are capable of talking to each other both online and in person without being weird. There's often still a male bias- often women (even if they are the stronger athlete/hiker) will be married to/partners with one of the guys whereas there's still far more single guys in groups of friends than single women. If we go to a comics convention or a wargames shop (the latter being one of my passions, the former hers)? Most people will be awesome, friendly and helpful but that percentage of oddballs starts creeping (literally in some cases) up.

Simple explanation, really: escapism. Gaming, comics, anime etc all provide a means of escaping the real world, so they're attractive to people who struggle with other humans (and aren't willing to learn or adapt).
 

RalchAC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
825
Going back to alien/monstrous female designs, I do want to give props to Young Justice and Supergirl for their designs of Miss Martians true form. It would have been so easy for them to either ignore her white martian backstory or make the design more sexualized.
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I've been recently reading some stuff about how to create an alien species for a story I'm currently writing and came across this link which has interesting information and links to other interesting sites. Some of the articles referenced over there that I've actually liked were the two following ones:

- The first one explicitely mentions Mass Effect, so I think it'd be interesting to link it here.
- The other one seems to consider different theories about aliens and if it's possible that they'd be similar to us.

I recently read The Mote in God's Eye and the alien species was without a doubt the best part of it. It was interesting, because the aliens shown there while being bipedal, had a really different mindset, culture and society compared to humanity in the book. Their sexuality is kept as a secret for a long while and when it's finally unveiled it has quite a long standing impact in their history. The author of the blog where the original article links sex (more how the species reproduces than in a more specific way) with a lot of social customs, which honestly makes a lot of sense too.

It's a shame videogames don't explore non-antropomorph alien species more. I get that for some stuff like early Star Wars and Star Trek it may be complicated to go all out due to the need to use costumes and other budget-related concerns. But videogames shouldn't have the same problem. An example that's given in one of those articles is that in a world with much higher gravity than ours, having 2 legs would be impractical.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Simple explanation, really: escapism. Gaming, comics, anime etc all provide a means of escaping the real world, so they're attractive to people who struggle with other humans (and aren't willing to learn or adapt).
Yeah, that's fair enough- I've had a lifelong love of anything sci-fi and fantasy for my own escapism from the mundane too.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I've been recently reading some stuff about how to create an alien species for a story I'm currently writing and came across this link which has interesting information and links to other interesting sites. Some of the articles referenced over there that I've actually liked were the two following ones:

- The first one explicitely mentions Mass Effect, so I think it'd be interesting to link it here.
- The other one seems to consider different theories about aliens and if it's possible that they'd be similar to us.

I recently read The Mote in God's Eye and the alien species was without a doubt the best part of it. It was interesting, because the aliens shown there while being bipedal, had a really different mindset, culture and society compared to humanity in the book. Their sexuality is kept as a secret for a long while and when it's finally unveiled it has quite a long standing impact in their history. The author of the blog where the original article links sex (more how the species reproduces than in a more specific way) with a lot of social customs, which honestly makes a lot of sense too.

It's a shame videogames don't explore non-antropomorph alien species more. I get that for some stuff like early Star Wars and Star Trek it may be complicated to go all out due to the need to use costumes and other budget-related concerns. But videogames shouldn't have the same problem. An example that's given in one of those articles is that in a world with much higher gravity than ours, having 2 legs would be impractical.
Interesting stuff!

Some of the reproductive methods of our earthly cousins under the sea, tiny in size or in extreme environments can be super-weird too.
 
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