Gonna have to take a look later because I'm at work and the first thing I saw scrolling down is 2 anime girls naked lol
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Gonna have to take a look later because I'm at work and the first thing I saw scrolling down is 2 anime girls naked lol
Warning extended to 3 day ban: Sustained arguments in bad faith
Last time I respond to someone clearly too passionate to handle facts.
Sexist fanservice aimed at Otaku is not 'Handling it just fine', nor is it an example of this 'cultural sexual liberation' your original point claimed existed either. 'Japan's fine with it regardless' is a very different stance to your original post. Are you abandoning your position of 'Japan is a sexually liberated country' then?
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Oh no, you're not getting away that easily. Calling me "too passionate for facts" is the sign of a coward. I'm reading your website and you are relying and data from the 80's. Not modern at all.
If it derails every single thread? Yes I think it's an issue. Ultimately it's up to the mods not me but I would find it exhausting that every thread would turn into debates about the designs. Even if the topic of the thread has very little to do with the actual characters.
I think you should probably back off. Your arguments are coming across as flawed and your hurting your own points more then they are.
Vague comments about other poster like that aren't helping either.
Just because we disagree with people here doesn't mean we can't try to be polite.
Is the main reasoning against this type of content not that it has adverse affects on how women are viewed and treated irl?
There's a reason why there were measures taken about how every single Xenoblade Chronicles 2 thread developed (or devolved)
How can a general discussion topic about the game have very little to do with the characters? Is it too much to think that if there's that much discussion about it, maybe the designs are the problem? This feels like misplacing blame to the extreme.
Let's talk about the "herbivore men", or the declining birth rates, or the millions of other social issues you're clearly ignoring with me being "too passionate for facts" .
I'm almost certain I've seen a thread about the music turn into snide remarks about the characters but I honestly can't remember right now.
Also how do you feel about people who like the designs? Are they the problem?
I adjusted my post to refer to general topics about the game. If people specifically make threads to just talk about gameplay, that's fine and they should be allowed to talk about that in a thread made specifically for that discussion (and yes, they should be able to do this without people coming in and distracting from the topic of discussion). That said, if the gameplay also sexualizes or objectifies women, people should be allowed to talk about how the gameplay, specifically, does that (and there are obviously games that do this).
People who like the designs aren't the problem, they should be allowed to voice their opinions. People who try to shut down discussion about criticisms are (and it is exceedingly common to see this).
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That link definitely needs an NSFW warning. Wasn't expecting futanaris jacking each other off.
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I guess it's just annoying to see it in every single thread for awhile. I remember it happened with Dragon's Crown too.
But you do make a fair point. What would you think about next time something like this comes up(and it will) making a thread desecrated to discussion of the characters? I'm not saying forbid it from other threads completely but it might stop it from taking over every possible thread about the game.
I know where this conversation is going, but here's my opinion on this matter.
It's absolutely fine if you like playing games with skimpy anime girls, it doesn't bother anyone, true. And those who are not into those kind of games should just back off by not playing the game. It's that simple, right? No, not quite.
Here's the thing. Some franchises don't have the history of questionable fanservice. And when a franchise turns into precisely that kind of direction, the fans who can't accept that kind of stuff would simply be thrown out of the franchise's target audience.
Lots of Japanese game franchises are following the trend, as they have no choice. And it's a legit concern for those who don't like this development. Dismissing those concerns with "get out of here, the game is just not for you" is not helping at all.
The main reason I and presumably several others replied is that your initial point of fanservice aimed at the niche Otaku market being evidence of Japan being a sexually liberated country was demonstrably false.
I think it should still be allowed in general threads, and it should obviously be allowed if it's in a thread where it is the primary point of discussion. Also, see my edit of my previous post (sorry about the constant edits, responses are coming in fast).
The mods obviously have the final word on how they want discussions structured, of course.
That's fair, and believe our not I understand that.
I do hope that there's a more fair mix as we go further down the line.
I let the rather heated discussions earlier in the day get to me and I probably started taking this thread to personally again. So I'm sorry for that.
Understandable and yeah if the sexulization is a direct part of the gameplay then yeah it's fair for it to be open to discussion.
We are not criticizing people when we talk about a game. We're criticizing the game (and yes, that may include the people who created the game, they are obviously liable for their creation). If people like it that's fine, but people should not feel as if they shouldn't voice their opinion if it's relevant to the thread. Far too often people take criticism of a game (usually one they like) as if it were personal attack.
And honestly, all the adulation for games in general is exhausting. People should want to take a closer look at games. Being critical helps you understand what you like or dislike about the game. It gives you perspective.
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welp thanks god I stopped at the 2 girls naked lol although I wonder what girls with dicks have to do with that but whatever lol
The only image on that page with 2 naked girls is the futa one, so.......
fuck I'm gonna get fired, am I? lol (I didn't notice it)
You're mixing two different things here:
A) The differences in the consumption of media focused in sex and how it's viewed by the general public.
B) And actually having a more "liberated" culture than the West when it comes to sex.
And you are mixing them up. Being sexually liberated is about a state of mind, when you accept the fact that you (and most people in the world) have sexual urges and finding no problems of any kind into trying to satiate them in a healthy way (for both you and your partner if there is any). A person that masturbates 5 times a day but isn't capable of normally interact with a member of the opposite sex isn't a sexually liberated person. Sex is something that requires two people (or more, if you're into that) and consent. And a big part of the anime industry targets an audience compromised of young males that aren't capable of interacting with a member of the opposite sex and would rather spend their time and money with 2D / 3D characters / idols that they've fetishized to a degree that isn't healthy at all.
A big important part of any writting is its characters. In order to build a character, you need three things: a background; a defined personality (with realistic flaws if possible, which helps with good character development and makes it easier for the audience to relate to); and goals and motivations that push them forward. Most of the female characters in otaku-focused media lack either one or both of the later ones. Or maybe they had them when they're first shown, but they devolve as the series progress until they're there just for the sake of the main character, which often is both at the same time cool as fuck, has no flaws (or maybe superficial ones that don't really matter) and shares some traits with the intended audience.
Sexually liberated people wouldn't need the media that focuses on them to be mainly compromised of submissive female characters that are carefully crafted to appeal to their fantasies. They would ask for characters that are actually good, believable and well rounded. But they don't. Because they aren't sexually liberated. They're socially awkward people that instead of trying to do their best to go outside and learn how to move around the society they live in (like most socially awkward people, here you have one) would rather spend their days looking at a screen and living their fantasies. And, again. Sex involves two people. And I don't think anyone can be "liberated" sexually if they aren't even capable of interating with those that they're attracted to.
Good post.
I'd like to add as well that as often as people like to bring up sex crime statistics in Japan to prove it is a safer place for women.... remember we just have reported crimes stats. Keyword reported. Oftentimes police in Japan, even more than in western countries, will simply not take reports of rape seriously, especially in the case of rape by a man against his girlfriend or wife, and not actually record it. So women refrain from reporting assault, or even just see it as "how things go for women".
Further, Japan has a 99% conviction rate, because they only really prosecute crimes that can be easily proven. They LIKE that high conviction rate, as it gives comfort that the system is working. So if something doesn't have obvious, damning proof, it's not going to court. And rape and molestation beyond the word of the accuser is really hard to prove.
This can all be boiled down to the "hammer down the stuck-out nail" mentality inherent in Japanese culture. The mindset is that you put everyone else first before you. If you try to inconvenience people with accusations of crimes, it better be serious or else you're just as bad as a criminal in terms of upsetting society. Hell I remember an article that basically put forth the idea that protesting at all was itself a nuisance. You just do not rock the boat. Period.
So.. obviously there are less reported sex crimes. Because women don't want any more trouble for themselves or anyone else.
This isn't to say that Japan is a sexual hellscape for women or anything. But rather to stop using faulty statistics to prove your fanservice media aren't doing anything harmful. Because we just don't have the data to prove that.
wait what, what games censors breast???
I think it can be discussed, but if we were to use Xenoblade 2 as example (and implying I understood the mods), its better to make its own thread "ITT: X game character design are problematic" rather than jump into every thread and bring up the topic even is the thread is about gifs or something.
In topics that are general discussions, it should not be against the rules to discuss general problems. And it's pretty clear these are general problems - character designs, for example, effect the whole of the game. It should be possible and even encouraged to have a discussion about them in a thread about the game generally.
it should be but sometimes it fails off cause people either ignore the topic, or whoever brings it up does it in bad faith (I have seen merlker or psywave do it) and that create arguments in bad faith to and that spiral backs to oblivion. a dedicated thread like this or the one about Street fighter are better options IMO
I think there's room for nuance there- where posted gifs comprise mainly of a mix of bouncing tits and arse on show combined with various amounts of the contortion required to have both on show at once, I think it's fair game for criticism, in the same way that it wouldn't exactly be off-topic in such a thread for someone to comment and say they found the visuals attractive either. Having a strict rule on criticism but not on praise of such elements seems harsh and likely to polarise discussion even further if a poster can't offer both criticism and praise in the same thread- often I do that when discussing a JRPG I've broadly enjoyed.
I don't see why criticism of sexualisation etc needs to be quarantined into its own threads just because some people don't want to hear it. There's plenty of games criticism I'm not interested in (when people bang on about frame rates and performance etc) but I don't call for it to be quarantined into 'tech' threads just because some posters like me think it's not interesting or distracting from a topic- I'm sure it is relevant for those who like analysing such stuff.
It actually became a problem when every single topic about the game, even the general ones, became about how horrid designs were. Trying to steer the conversation away was useless, complaining about it got you the stock answer designs are part of the game and, believe it or not, it prevented enjoyable conversation about a game that was already more than its characters.
Again, the issue comes when it hijacks the discussion about the game itself. It doesn't need to be quarantined, just moderated as everything else, because every game (well, almost) is more than just its characters.
Wanting to have a little room for breathing and discuss the game is not quarantining criticism of sexualisation.
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I do agree that, in such a situation where 90% of replies in a thread becomes about x sub-topic, there's obviously enough interest in that to make it worth splitting it off into a separate thread, perhaps with the mods help, so that the remaining people can talk about something else without being drowned out- that seems fair, it's not like there's a limit to the number of discussions about a game on Era.
I just don't think a blanket policy of quarantining particular types of criticism is fair either, just because some people don't want to hear it.
Edit: I think were broadly on the same track to a middle ground here :D
It wouldn't be an issue if people were able to discuss it in a reasonable way, but in most cases they can't which tends to create tension, antagonistic behavior and completely derail the thread ruining it for pretty much everyone else.
This is the rule for Kingdom Come OT. Well, every Kingdom Come thread turns into that discussion by the first post and it's allowed.
I believe the same rule would apply for such 'hijacking' attempts for questionable character designs.
To be honest i saw more an interest to shut off discussion about the game itself, but that may be just me misinterpreting things. I'll be happy to be wrong.
I mean, we ended with 3 threads about the game, two of them hijacked (the third one was ironically the thread about following the reveals of the rare blades) and every single new thread ended in the same way, while at the same time discussion was being conducted here, exactly the same one. At the time i couldn't help but to think there was something wrong.
I dunno if it was an exception, but after that incident i wouldn't fault people for wanting a separated thread, since that time there was no automoderation whatsoever.
In fact i find even more strange that SNK Heroines is blatant to the poing of getting downright creepy and didn't wake such reponse, but well, i guess there was a lesson learnt from the XBC2 debacle.
Zangya is my #1 wanted dlc character in dbfz :xNot until the day that those same people are willing to admit that the reason why they're watching that stuff at all is because of the pedophilic fanservice. The "but no, the plot though, these characters are, the setting is" handwaving and mincing about is done to try and take away from the fact that, at the end of the day, they want to see the 15 year old titties.
Like, the "Is Senran Kagura Estival Festival" thread is telling because everyone's really quick to say that they enjoyed the game and platinum-ed it, leaving out the fact that in order to do that, you have to put all of the girls in seductive poses and then slap their privates until they agree to kiss you.
::SHRUG::
It's a bit of a sore area because there aren't a lot of meaningful women in DBZ to begin with, and the newer female fighters who are pretty dope are so new that they probably won't make this iteration of the game at all. From what I've seen though, nearly everyone really wants Kale and Kalifula to join the roster.
Personally I'm like "But Zanyga doh".
But no one remembers Zangya, and Bojack sucks.
I'm not saying putting a mosaic in the breast area lol, but plenty of japanese versions of western games got naked models (even if it's only topless) removed: Watch Dogs, The Order 1866, AC:Origins, Witcher III, I think GTAV to...
In the sense of JRPGs, and anime in general, I feel that part of the problem is that you have the perspective of "outsiders" who stay at a superficial level (like I said in my previous post, I think there are much bigger problems with anime and the JRPGs that are influenced by it that how they look) and "insiders" that would actively fight against them. The problem of being an "outsider" and taking about what you see without context, is that you are missing information. A good comparison would be how some people said that only women were sexualized in this picture despite the fact that those characters could fit in an otome game with little to no changes. See Amnesia or Hakuoki. The biggest difference? Women anime fans have better taste than men, I'd say.
I like anime and JRPGs. I've been consuming them for half of my life. I have watched a lot of crap over the years, why deny it. I have interest in creative writting and I like to disect the stuff I watch to learn what I should and what I shouldn't do when I write myself. I've payed a lot of attention to the discussion about sexualization here and in the old forum over the years and learnt quite a bit because of it. But a lot of the time I just can't bring myself to talk to those "outsiders" because their fixated at looking at a tree instead of the forest. And I'd love to discuss about the forest and learn from each other. I tend to write long posts because of it. But at times it feels like just want to pour their (justified, I won't say otherwise) anger and move on until there is a new thread to pour some more.
And that's where the problem comes. I like anime. I want it to be better. I want constructive criticism about what to do for it to be better. But a lot of people would rather burn it all down and destroy a thing I like. And talking with that kind of people is exhausting TBH.
they did? 1st time I heard it, Japan is more prone to censor Violence in VG tho (which still weird given how gruesome some anime are , lol)
I suppose Era's only three months old, reasonably progressive as a stated intention and it's relatively light and transparent touch with moderation is something often hailed as a good thing. There were always going to be test cases for how to handle elements that some of the community found more or less distasteful than others, and I think Xenoblade 2 ended up in that spot by virtue of timing of release and promotional campaign.
I think things will settle down with time. I agree with you on muted response to SNK compared XB2, but also suspect another element, to a greater or lesser degree, was that one of them is a heavily-promoted tentpole Nintendo first party game that was being promoted just as Era was finding it's feet, and one of them isn't.
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/04/what-this-man-really-wanted-was-to-see-breasts-in-3d/
Courtesy of motherfucking Wikipedia.
Others already pointed out the "more than just" dishonesty.
Now, there certainly were accusations dished out to defenders of the games.
If you scratched "pedophilic", it would make for an easier proposition. I don't think most players care that much about the youth of the characters; negligence is a problem too, but it doesn't make them pedophile.
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Again, that's a problem with the community. If the community can't be respectful towards criticism, it's hypocritical to expect they'll be respected for effulgent praise.
That said, I question the idea that a thread can necessarily be "hijacked" by a discussion people want to have. My assumption is that if 90% of people are having that discussion, it's because they want to be having that discussion. I think that it's not the majority of the discussion that should be moved in such a case, but the minority - as the most relevant discussion people are having is about that 90%. Saying, "hey, 90% of the discussion about the game needs to be elsewhere" seems... backwards. It seems weird to want to exclude the discussion people are most interested in having.
Not saying there can't be exceptions to this case - obviously if 90% of the conversation is about how people love racism or sexism or pedophilia... well, that's not really acceptable. To some degree, it will have to be on a case by case basis.
Alright, but what enjoyable conversation is can be different for everyone.
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I've enjoyed reading your posts, and understand where you're coming from. It's certainly going to be a hot topic going forward as the Switch absorbs much of what used to end up on the Vita, and that unfiltered approach then sits next to Nintendo's carefully built family-friendly western image.
In an attempt to get back on topic, however, I do think it's telling that a large portion of the designs posted for discussion in this thread are also from anime-influenced, Japanese RPGs/Srpgs etc that are popular enough on Era to be front page news when new titles are announced. People in this thread might not all be anime 'insiders' (I'm not sure me having seen Akira, Macross and Evangelion 20 years ago counts! :D) but they are often very familiar with the games influenced by it, and so criticism of designs from Fire Emblem, Ys, Xenoblade, Trails, Valkyria Chronicles etc often comes with an undercurrent of 'the exception that proves the rule'. Being that, in my case, 'I enjoy almost everything about this series apart from what I've specifically listed'.
I mean, I've posted a lot in this thread, but it's because I mainly play Japanese games- I'm far more familiar and able to discuss the design of them than the AAA western games I don't play, and so I don't haunt Destiny threads pointing out ridiculous, impractical nonsense about space marines instead.
I already explained the situation, every single discussion was, effectively, hijacked, users that didn't take part on XBC2 suddendly became very active, and trying to talk about anything else was impossible. Suddendly, what was about the 30 or 40% became the 99% with no breathing room. Want to talk about the gameplay? tough luck, soundtrack? Nuh-huh, tech details? Go elsewere.
All of this while having the same discussion in this thread anyway.
I remember it too vividly, and it really left me a bad impression.
Keep in mind that part of the reason for the Japanese model of objectification is merch sales. That's built into their business model, establishing "merch characters" and attachment to toy sales is huge, think Star Wars. Especially in the games that don't have international sales to support them, if the gross from Star Wars style merch tie-ins is x percentage of the gross, it'd be absolutely crazy for them not to alter the art style slightly in pre production, at no cost to the developer to enable merchandise attachment.
With console sales seemingly flat in Japan on Media Create, even if you assume digital through PSN is on the increase, it's basically just a business decision to objectify and enable merch at this point. You see this more with franchises that "tick the box" with objectification, they have the hilariously large breasts one, the small one etc, and usually the *token character played straight* to get the full range.
With console sales seemingly flat in Japan on Media Create, even if you assume digital through PSN is on the increase, it's basically just a business decision to objectify and enable merch at this point. You see this more with franchises that "tick the box" with objectification, they have the hilariously large breasts one, the small one etc, and usually the *token character played straight* to get the full range.
And if it's every single discussion, that's a problem. It's difficult to believe that a problem about a game would permeate through the totality of it. But if it does, and a poster can make a case for the why and how of that, I think it's acceptable. I suspect however, that the conversation was largely drive-by posts and arguments in bad faith, which was likely exhausting for the moderators and other posters.
Again, a lot of it is also the community understanding that having those conversations is okay, and shooting them down (telling them to have the conversation elsewhere) isn't helping the situation (thread derailing aside, obviously).
That article about child pornography in Japan is even more disturbing. You are allowed to possess child pornography, just not distribute it!
http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat19/sub127/item672.html#chapter-0
The problem with OTs comes with different expectations. If you have a titillating game, those fully accepting it will strive for a locker-room atmosphere.
The problem with XB2 is that the game itself is bipolar, and this is reflected in the OT. In my opinion, people will just have to deal with it and have parallel discussions in the same thread or be courteously aware of the dichotomy.
Though it's probably a lot easier to deal with drive-by posts by banning one side.
The problem with XB2 is that the game itself is bipolar, and this is reflected in the OT. In my opinion, people will just have to deal with it and have parallel discussions in the same thread or be courteously aware of the dichotomy.
Though it's probably a lot easier to deal with drive-by posts by banning one side.
Saying it's a business decision doesn't make it acceptable.
I think people should still be able to raise criticisms of such games, regardless of the atmosphere of the thread. And hey, if people don't want to talk about it, they can choose to not engage. Again, it feels weird to me to shut down a discussion people want to have about a game on a games forum, assuming it's not something problematic or in bad faith from the outset.
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If the decision is between job losses for people you know and society's overall position on the objectification of women, it is not an easy moral equation at all. Are art designers and game producers supposed to front up to staff and say "yo we are dropping potentially 10-20% of the gross of this franchise potentially threatening the viability of the studio!"
That's a serious moral quandary.
And Japanese game developers are not all dinosaurs on these issues, but you can bet that somewhere in some game studio, someone has had to make that trade off. And I don't really blame them for supporting the moral decision their customers are making with their wallets when many Japanese games do not have strong business cases to support them and are pretty marginal.
It was acceptable at first. Sure, it's an issue worth discussing, but then it elongated for days, and then more than a week, and when a new thread got open someone would post the zoomed gif of Phyra's boob physics, and there we go again, for days and days and days, and then someone comes and criticises people who are ok with the designs, and then another one criticises the entire anime fandom, and someone throws the word pedophile because why the fuck no, meanwhile there's people trying to discuss the game itself but can't because their posts gets drowned instantly
There's a point when a theme of discussion gets tired and becomes annoying, not because its very nature but because it effectively shuts up every other discussion. Some were drive-bys, while other were people that were there for the discussion itself. In three threads simultaneously.
I have no problem with discussing every single issue with a game, i have, however, a huge issue with however anyone wants to call what happened there. And if it were because the ost composer was a hack or whatever i'd be equally pissed.
No, the morality of the issue is pretty clear. The business issue is another matter entirely (and seemingly, a rather presumptuous one).
Saying there's a time limit on a relevant discussion doesn't seem fair, but most of what you've explained to me, again, sounds like what I was talking about: bad faith arguments and drive-by posting, as well as personal attacks.
I agree. Maybe i haven't expressed myself correctly
I mean when that discussion becomes the only one. After a while, there's another things people want to talk about.
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