I do wonder if the 2020 Olympics would have any effect on things like that. Shining a light on things that other prominent parts of the world aren't cool with usually leads to some kind of discussion from within.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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I do wonder if the 2020 Olympics would have any effect on things like that. Shining a light on things that other prominent parts of the world aren't cool with usually leads to some kind of discussion from within.
No, no no no no. It's YOU who came in here with a hot take. It's YOU who needs to prove your case first. Prove to us that Japan is this sexually liberated country you claim first. It's not our job to prove your point wrong until you give us a case beyond a blanket statement.
Japan is one of the most sexually repressed countries in the world.
I say this as someone who loves a lot of fanservicy anime and games.
porn games have mosaics too, any display of genitalia is Japan most be censored one way or another (unless you are the artist of To-Love-Ru)
any uncensored version is an "international release", or a fan made "fix"
I don't think so. It'll have discussion as always but if UN wasn't able to do it, no one will. It needs to be changed itself and to that happen, the people of Japan need to pressure. But there not that amount of people to do it or who care enough about.
So sexually liberated that a pop star is forced to shave her head in shame for having a boyfriend.
I don't see 'sexual liberation' and 'almost completely one-sided sexualisation in a media form' as the same thing. Indulging the wishes of fanboys as a trend is 'sexual liberation' for only those few, which isn't liberation at all when contributing to treating half the population like slabs of meat with convenient holes.
Furthermore, the sexualisation of minors (in a few specific examples here) isn't a 'sexual liberation' worth defending, nor is it evidence of western prudishness if western posters find it abhorrent in a small number of anime games, nor is it bloody forum wars. Jesus wept.
This list here shows everything wrong with the Japanese video game industry.
Shit, the overdose of fanservice anime and games is a result of how actually repressed society is.
I don't think i earned such an abrassive answer, moreso when i'm not stating a fact. I though i stated i think in my sentence.
In any case, since i guess you really want an answer and aren't just being abrassive for the sake of it, Era, just like Gaf before shitting the bed, is very pregressive, and i think discussion over every game will be shut down if it is proven with solid arguments that the game is too sexist/racist/xenophobe/regressive in general.
And whoever knows the Senran Kagura series knows that, while it's a fun series leaving fanservice aside, the fanservice is hard enough to be candidate of banning, and it can be spun even further. I mean, just that one extra Estival Versus hidden mode @Mesolan can be enough to look into it if enough noise is made.
And well, as Morrigan said, a forum lives and die by its users, so if a respectable portion of them ask for something reasonable, there's no reason to not comply, so the whole era userbase has some power over both mods and admins.
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The only justification I can see for banning a game that people claim toes the line but doesn't definitively cross it (which I think we can all agree on, if Senran Kagura did clearly cross a line it'd be banned already), is because the members it attracts to this forum and the greater impact those people have on the rest of the site is overall a negative one.
So let's get some hard examples of the kind of stuff the makes up these games, shall we?
Obviously these two clips aren't "the game" in that they're side activities or whatever, but I don't think that matters. If you play these games as a means of sexual stimulation and can admit as much, while also admitting they're problematic for a plethora of reasons... congratulations. Anyone who watches and enjoys porn is more or less in the same boat.
However, I take issue with people who can play a game like this, engage in activities like the above clips and even the main games themselves and not come away with some admission that these games are pretty gross. These girls are put in positions of weakness with red cheeks and tears in their eyes while their clothes get removed or blown/shot off. There are mini-games where you can grope them, lift up their skirts, shoot water at them, slap their genitals while they shake you off and say things like "Hey, your eyes are scary". I think anyone who engages with that sort of thing and doesn't understand how potentially harmful it is and then gets defensive or dismissive when people take issue with it, are not people that should be welcome in this forum. This is all of course ignoring for a moment the issue of the age of these characters, which I don't know enough about to feel comfortable making any definitive statement on. The sort of stuff in the above clips is already gross with the assumption the girls are supposed to be over 18, it only gets worse if they're younger.
I would appreciate some candid responses from the people who are so defensive of these games. Why do you enjoy being pandered to in such a gratuitous, over-the-top manner? Is it the simple interactivity and the illusion of intimacy that the medium of video games is able to provide when compared to... say... porn? What do you get from discussing this kind of game with other people? Finally, and perhaps most importantly, why do you feel the need to defend it when it is so clearly ludicrous and harmful in SO many ways?
So let's get some hard examples of the kind of stuff the makes up these games, shall we?
Obviously these two clips aren't "the game" in that they're side activities or whatever, but I don't think that matters. If you play these games as a means of sexual stimulation and can admit as much, while also admitting they're problematic for a plethora of reasons... congratulations. Anyone who watches and enjoys porn is more or less in the same boat.
However, I take issue with people who can play a game like this, engage in activities like the above clips and even the main games themselves and not come away with some admission that these games are pretty gross. These girls are put in positions of weakness with red cheeks and tears in their eyes while their clothes get removed or blown/shot off. There are mini-games where you can grope them, lift up their skirts, shoot water at them, slap their genitals while they shake you off and say things like "Hey, your eyes are scary". I think anyone who engages with that sort of thing and doesn't understand how potentially harmful it is and then gets defensive or dismissive when people take issue with it, are not people that should be welcome in this forum. This is all of course ignoring for a moment the issue of the age of these characters, which I don't know enough about to feel comfortable making any definitive statement on. The sort of stuff in the above clips is already gross with the assumption the girls are supposed to be over 18, it only gets worse if they're younger.
I would appreciate some candid responses from the people who are so defensive of these games. Why do you enjoy being pandered to in such a gratuitous, over-the-top manner? Is it the simple interactivity and the illusion of intimacy that the medium of video games is able to provide when compared to... say... porn? What do you get from discussing this kind of game with other people? Finally, and perhaps most importantly, why do you feel the need to defend it when it is so clearly ludicrous and harmful in SO many ways?
Yeah, Japan in general. The devs are only catering to their target market, and it's only getting worse.
I meant more that the country influence the people in the making of the art but yeah, that makes sense too, I guess.
The point being, Japan does a lot in their entertainment that may be morally reprehensible irl, but their society isn't degrading because of it. Their people manage to be especially cordial and honorable when it comes to courting mates.
And @ anyone pointing to censorship to define Japan's feelings towards sex, why?
I would appreciate just a single answer from you
Does the entire series feature that thing? Does the entire series revolve around it?
yeah but it was more to point that even breasts (allowed in porn games) are censored in regular games. It's pretty common in western games that have nudity when they receive a japanese version (AC:Origins is the latest example).
Declining birthrates, lack of marriages because of economic stress, overtiring working conditions...you sure society isn't degrading?
It's also a much better explanation for a lot of the creepier aspects than the country being sexually liberated.
It's a response about your claim that Japan as a more sexuality liberated media, something that is clearly false.
And for the rest, that they are more cordial or not (something that comes with their education to have always this facade of cordiality) doesn't negate the notion that japanese are actually having less sex, less marriages and less children.
I'm not sure about the groping, but it didn't take me long at all to find this:
which features the player character reviving a team mate sitting on the ground by squirting water all over her chest until her bikini top pops off. She has tears in her eyes and says "I-I'm so sad...". It happens again later and the person being revived says "How humiliating!"
Like... come on.
Man that first vid reminded me of SM64DS
That one water sport Senran game looks like a fun drunk party game with friends, dont know if this is in it tho
Ok, the second isn't related? Given the conservative of the country, I'd say lack of marriage is greatly affected by the courting mates portion of his post.
Oh, I thought you were making a comparison between it and fanservice in the media. Then I think it's fine.
Overworking it's completely out of question for any of these tho It's another different beast.
How can they be repressed yet also have an incredibly liberal stance on sexual entertainment? And again, tell me without immediately screaming about the censorship.
User Warned: Not the right context to laugh off a serious argument
I'll personally defend it because I find it hilarious. Ludicrous things like that are like that for me.
That being said, I haven't actually played any SK games beyond a demo IIRC, but those videos make me want to. It's the kind of absurdism I find appealing. Even if the combat is bad, presentation goes a long way.
That SK thread has actually got me curious too with people saying there are legit well-written characters. I'm trying to wrap my head around that claim. I would find the cognitive dissonance of that absolutely fascinating if things do indeed get as serious as they say.
Because that "liberating stance of sexual entertainment" is what causes the aforementioned lack of birth rates and lack of desire for sex mayhaps? Nah, clearly it's one of the most sexually liberating countries ever!
/s
Maybe it's a conspiracy. All the fanservice and sexual innuendo in Japanese entertainment is just a means to allure people to have babies. But like, they are bad at sending the clear message. Yeah.
Or it's just a dumb thing to sell a handful of more copies.
I know if a random game slapped Godzilla on the box I would buy it without question. Stupid sexy Godzilla.
Or it's just a dumb thing to sell a handful of more copies.
I know if a random game slapped Godzilla on the box I would buy it without question. Stupid sexy Godzilla.
Once again, I ask you for proof. You make the claim. YOU need to prove it. Trying to scream that I don't know the answer by accusing my profession (while I took some sociology courses in college, I'm a Network Administrator) does not prove your case. Either give me your case or stop pretending you have any ground to stand on.
To be fair, Godzilla goes great with anything.
There are other better means to allure people to have babies.
An example that I can think of now is the TV drama. I watch them every now and then, and there has been the similar theme in lots of them: marriage and having kids. Lots of them even feature older people in their late 20s and 30s.
You claimed fanservice is an an example of sexual liberation. I said it's only liberation for the fantasies of the few, which isn't a cultural sexual liberation at all. Not sure how moving the goalposts helps your argument, or disproves my counter-point. These posters set out a more realistic explanation than 'sexual liberation'.
Hey guys, I would like to add something to the "Japan" topic.
Note that I live here, I have a degree in Asian cultures and languages (focused on Japan and Korea), I'm married with a Japanese woman and I also have a daughter.
This doesn't mean that my point of view is absolute, I can be wrong as everyone else, I just want to tell you that I have some experience related to the subject.
The way sexuality is perceived here compared to the west is quite different. I believe this has roots mostly on how christianity shaped our culture. Even if you are not religious, the dominant religion definitely influenced our culture.
In the west sexuality is generally taught to be something to be ashamed of.
Prior to Japan opening to the west again in the 19th century, they had a completely different approach with it. Please note that they were bathing together naked, without finding it sexual or attractive, just rather normal (something that would have been viewed as completely wrong in our culture instead).
This is the country where the comedian named "Hard-Gay", in a funny TV moment moves his pelvis, emulating a penetration, in the face of a crying baby, and the action is so ridiculous that both the baby and the mom start laughing.
If someone did that in the west, it would spawn tons of headliners the next day. Here, it's considered a funny joke.
Sexuality is generally perceived more naturally, kind in a innocent way you may say, it "exist" and it's ok to joke about it. Yet, most of the people really don't care nor get offended by it.
I'm talking about the regular people, not the basement geek, and the vast majority of the population is not geeky here.
The birth rate issues instead shows that in this country, people seem to really NOT CARE about it. They work so much and they don't care about building relationships.
They say that here boys are "herbivorous", in the sense that they never do the first move. It's very rare to see a Japanese boy/guy hitting a girl, something quite common in western countries. You will never see somebody trying to talk with a stranger just because she's "cute". TBH this is something I really appreciate of this country, to not have to deal with those kind of guys (I'm a guy as well, but I can't stand those "hit anything that walks" people).
Yes, there are perverts here as well, so you will read news about train groping etc..., and it's something the government takes very seriously.
Sorry for the very long post, but I really want to share my point of view, hopefully it helps.
Note that I live here, I have a degree in Asian cultures and languages (focused on Japan and Korea), I'm married with a Japanese woman and I also have a daughter.
This doesn't mean that my point of view is absolute, I can be wrong as everyone else, I just want to tell you that I have some experience related to the subject.
The way sexuality is perceived here compared to the west is quite different. I believe this has roots mostly on how christianity shaped our culture. Even if you are not religious, the dominant religion definitely influenced our culture.
In the west sexuality is generally taught to be something to be ashamed of.
Prior to Japan opening to the west again in the 19th century, they had a completely different approach with it. Please note that they were bathing together naked, without finding it sexual or attractive, just rather normal (something that would have been viewed as completely wrong in our culture instead).
This is the country where the comedian named "Hard-Gay", in a funny TV moment moves his pelvis, emulating a penetration, in the face of a crying baby, and the action is so ridiculous that both the baby and the mom start laughing.
If someone did that in the west, it would spawn tons of headliners the next day. Here, it's considered a funny joke.
Sexuality is generally perceived more naturally, kind in a innocent way you may say, it "exist" and it's ok to joke about it. Yet, most of the people really don't care nor get offended by it.
I'm talking about the regular people, not the basement geek, and the vast majority of the population is not geeky here.
The birth rate issues instead shows that in this country, people seem to really NOT CARE about it. They work so much and they don't care about building relationships.
They say that here boys are "herbivorous", in the sense that they never do the first move. It's very rare to see a Japanese boy/guy hitting a girl, something quite common in western countries. You will never see somebody trying to talk with a stranger just because she's "cute". TBH this is something I really appreciate of this country, to not have to deal with those kind of guys (I'm a guy as well, but I can't stand those "hit anything that walks" people).
Yes, there are perverts here as well, so you will read news about train groping etc..., and it's something the government takes very seriously.
Sorry for the very long post, but I really want to share my point of view, hopefully it helps.
considering you're the only one that still gives this claim without examples, I think it's on you to show us why this stance is true.
Yeah, and that's a problem. People should be allowed to air grievances about a game, and if that's the primary topic of discussion, it says a lot about the game, not the posters. It is not the fault of the posters for discussing the parts of the game that are most relevant to them. The biggest problem I see is the complete lack of ability to even have the discussion, to such a degree that it's necessary to shut down the discussion before it even starts. THAT is a problem with the larger community. They need to work it out, not simply cover their eyes and pretend like it doesn't exist, or act as if it somehow doesn't have a part to play in the larger discussion of the game.
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Not trying to derail the thread too much, but oh man, I haven't heard that name in years. I was always a bit weirded out that they let him play with kids in such a ridiculous get-up though.
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It goes back to Buddhism and how sex is less taboo than with other religions. Do some googles if you want to know so bad. I thought it was common knowledge how expansive the sex industry was out there. http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat19/sub127/item674.html
Fan-service or not, the point is they handle this content just fine over there. It's not the games' fault.
Hard Gay is another example of absurdist humor I love. Though IIRC, there was a lot of controversy over him when it turned out he wasn't gay or something.
All the "discussion" amounted to usually is, "man these designs suck amiright?"
Not much depth to get from there. And I'm sorry but it constantly derailed any other topic of discussion. It's fine to air grievances but when it's every single thread with very little difference in the actual topic being discussed I don't blame the mods for telling people to cut it out.
If you had genuine complaints about the designs their was nothing stopping you from making a thread dedicated purely for discussing that, which several people did.
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...As someone who was raised Buddhist by my Burmese parents...fuck you. Fuck you for misinterpreting the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama. Don't come here with your willful mistranslation. From the bottom of my heart ပါးစပ်ပိတ်ထား
All you've stated is that drive-by posting is a problem (which I think everyone agrees is a problem) and the idea of how it is derailing a topic when people are talking about certain parts of the game. If people want to talk about their criticism of the game in a topic dedicated to talking about the game, what, exactly, is the problem? It's talking about the game, why is that wrong? Why is all other discussion about the game ok? They're free to air their grievances about the game, but not in a thread that is explicitly about the game?
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