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FrankJaeger

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
549
Characters in an interactive medium are more than that. Sure, they can be: on a creative level, a developer might say 'this character represents the traits of that faction', or on a mechanical level, a fighting game player could say 'I chose them because they are the all-rounder'. However, they can also inspire, horrify, represent, excite and so much more. If I play an RPG I don't choose the character I play based on what the designer wanted. I choose them based on what I want to represent the character I want to play, through a mix of visual design, costume, background etc. It then sucks if the female costume options look overly-sexualised compared to the male ones. That is the kind of character design issue that this thread is discussing.

I also look at the passion that costumes inspire in the cosplay community, and don't think they are inspired by a tool. Look at the passion for characters over thirty years old like Link or Megaman, initially they might have been just a tool for the player avatar, but the characters have long transcended that, to the point where any costume change gets debated by the players. Players identify with characters far more than they do with the creator, by design- one is in their living room, being controlled by them. Discussion of character design matters because the characters (if they are any good) matter to the player as well as inform them about the game world. They aren't just the creator's tool to tell a story, and I doubt any creative, be they in games, film, writing etc, is surprised to find that players/viewers/readers etc see far more aspects or sides to a character, positive or negative, than they might have originally imagined. That's one reason you end up with people asking for sequels to story-based games, because they don't want their time with the character to end, not because they don't want the tool to be put down.

If you want to discuss a particular creator, then great, go for it, but this thread is about character design trends across a huge swathe of games. It's not any individual creative that is the problem (although, alright, that's a valid point of discussion), it's what's seen as the norm for female character design for a huge chunk of the industry, including games worked on by hundreds of people. Describing objectified characters or sexualised designs as 'just tools' seems incredibly dismissive of valid concerns to me.
Characters on their own are just "tools" for creators to do whatever they want, like a hammer or a screwdriver.
Reaction of people on characters is extension of authorial intent, but does not make characters less "tools" of the author.

Shocking revelation: lots of people like things while still acknowledging problematic elements. And bringing up "personal taste" in a thread about harmful representations of women is bullshit.
How so, considering that different people might consider different things problematic.
Or you think only your view what is problematic or not is valid and everyone else are wrong?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Characters on their own are just "tools" for creators to do whatever they want, like hammer or screwdriver.
Even if a character is just a 'tool' to you, that doesn't mean they can't be deployed clumsily or with unintended consequences either.

Reaction of people on characters have nothing to do with the authorial intent on its own.
You think the intent of such creatives is never to provoke a reaction? It's entirely possible for creator intent to be to spark controversy and attention, it's commercial art with a goal of profit.

You seem to dismiss criticism of their creations as being a matter of taste rather than recognising people's valid concerns with the lead icons of a mass-market media product.

It's easy to defend each individual author as if they are only making art and everything is up for interpretation, but creatives don't work in a vacuum, they largely work as part of a large team and are well aware of the state of the wider commercial market they are producing for. When that wider market means that authors are producing work that sexualises women as the default, it's a bit rich to say 'sexualised/objectified design a matter of perspective and taste on behalf of the consumer that has nothing to do with creator intent' when part of that creator intent is to make money from the customers that might find such stuff appealing. That doesn't make it ok, or invalidate criticism.

'Author intent' being different from 'perceived product' is not a go-to defence for continued sexist stuff from a section of the industry. Very few creatives in games work with blinkers on, they know exactly what they are doing and what sells.

If it was a one-off piece of art I'd be happy to argue the toss as to the artist's mysterious intentions, but we are talking about thousands of commercial creatives working in one of the biggest media industries on the planet covered by a media of hundreds of outlets. They aren't individual creatives working in a vacuum, they are contributing to a media industry of thousands of products that often has an issue with how half the population is portrayed, and where loads of examples of problematic design exist in this very thread.
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,285
Their meaning is up to debate because people can have different standards on what just sexy or what sexualized.
No, it isn't. You might debate the scale at which they apply, but their meaning is not up for debate. Sexy, sexualized, and objectified all mean very different, very precise things.

I swear... I'd blame republican politics on this rise of stupidity - if it made any difference at all to those republicans.
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
How so, considering that different people might consider different things problematic.
Or you think only your view what is problematic or not is valid and everyone else are wrong?

Propagating harmful stereotypes, or any stereotype to a degree that makes it harmful, isn't just an opinion or a matter of taste. Though I'm not sure what "thing(s)" in particular you are defending, a lot of the issues brought here aren't far removed in negative outcomes from representation issues involving race and culture.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,285
Oh! Nevermind then, I haven't been keeping up with the changelog of the forums. Still though, we've gone a long way in this thread and still no solution.
I don't really think it's the kind of problem that is looking for a "solution" so much as a better approach. Sexism isn't really a problem you solve so much as work towards decreasing. Process, not a product.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I don't really think it's the kind of problem that is looking for a "solution" so much as a better approach. Sexism isn't really a problem you solve so much as work towards decreasing. Process, not a product.

Yeah, basically this. Plus the thread is "why women criticise sexualized designs": its purpose was primarily to inform (those that cared to be informed, at least), and I believe it has had some success on that front.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,352
It's an ongoing discussion. This thread has become a sort of catch-all to discuss various aspects of female representation in media. It's not going to reach a final, epic conclusion that solves everything (though I wish it did xD).

I'm amazed it's at 99 pages though, for a non-OT that's mightily impressive.
 

FrankJaeger

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
549
You seem to dismiss criticism of their creations as being a matter of taste rather than recognising people's valid concerns with the lead icons of a mass-market media product.
Why are you so adamant that I am protecting sexualized designs? Where I have said anything like that. It's like you have read something completely different.

I just said that for an author characters are tools. Le End.

No, it isn't. You might debate the scale at which they apply, but their meaning is not up for debate. Sexy, sexualized, and objectified all mean very different, very precise things.

I swear... I'd blame republican politics on this rise of stupidity - if it made any difference at all to those republicans.

I am not Republican and neither Conservative. I don't share their beliefs, nor I live in your precious US of A, politics of which somehow apply to the rest of the world in your head.

Propagating harmful stereotypes, or any stereotype to a degree that makes it harmful, isn't just an opinion or a matter of taste. Though I'm not sure what "thing(s)" in particular you are defending, a lot of the issues brought here aren't far removed in negative outcomes from representation issues involving race and culture.
One again, show me where I am defending anything.

I have a feeling that people in this thread try to gaslight me or provoke for rudeness, because, apparently what I am saying goes against their personal bias. Or they simply don't care to read or to understand what is written and misconstrue everything that I say as "defense of sexualized designs".

I have a flashback back to this time when I was arguing with religious fanatics, really.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,285
I am not Republican and neither Conservative. I don't share their beliefs, nor I live in your precious US of A, politics of which somehow apply to the rest of the world in your head.
Good to know that you're a worldly arse instead of just an American one.
I have a flashback back to this time when I was arguing with religious fanatics, really.
Because this will help us take you seriously.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
What do people think of Trip from Enslaved? I've seen people defend that character design, I played the game for the first time this year and I'm not entirely sure why.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Why are you so adamant that I am protecting sexualized designs?

Where I have said anything like that. It's like you have read something completely different.

I just said that for an author characters are tools. Le End.
It's because you keep on bringing up 'author intent' as if it explains anything in each singular case, when it dismisses valid concerns about widespread issues as just the interpretation of the user regarding each specific example.

I have a feeling that people in this thread try to gaslight me or provoke for rudeness, because, apparently what I am saying goes against their personal bias. Or they simply don't care to read or to understand what is written and misconstrue everything that I say as "defense of sexualized designs".

I have a flashback back to this time when I was arguing with religious fanatics, really.
Honestly, I don't feel like you understand anything I'm saying either. Seeing as our whole exchange started from your willful inability to recognise the difference between the most common terms being used, such as 'objectification' and 'sexy design', your accusations of a deliberate lack of understanding on the part of others or the misrepresentation of your arguments ring a little hollow.

And 'religious fanatics'? Really? You don't think that is 'provocative' either?
 
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Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
What do people think of Trip from Enslaved? I've seen people defend that character design, I played the game for the first time this year and I'm not entirely sure why.
I've always found her hard to view outside of the context of Monkey, where her head is smaller than his biceps. Honestly it's been so long I can barely remember it, seemed fairly forgettable at the time as I could barely recall anything about it a few months after playing it.


I7S9RY.jpeg
 
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Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
One again, show me where I am defending anything.

I have a feeling that people in this thread try to gaslight me or provoke for rudeness, because, apparently what I am saying goes against their personal bias. Or they simply don't care to read or to understand what is written and misconstrue everything that I say as "defense of sexualized designs".

I have a flashback back to this time when I was arguing with religious fanatics, really.
I... I literally just said idk what you're in here defending and implicitly left it to you to clarify anything as you'd like. But you found it provocative?

"People might consider different things problematic" is a pretty vague deffence of... something. I'm asking you what you think are specific things that are a matter of opinion? Reading back through your posts though, you seem to be on the same track as that other poster (CID) who was here earlier concerned with cosmic objectivity. Which is... *bites lip* not... sensical when evaluating elements of media within the confines of human society at large.
 

Hirok2099

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,399
I don't think they the word "ugly" was used, but I do remember several people not being interested in playing The Witcher because of how Geralt looks and you can't create your own character.
Which is their right and there is nothing wrong with that. Aesthetics are a part of the game and people can like or dislike them just as much as they can dislike anything else about the game.
 

Deleted member 37107

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 31, 2017
404
Chicago
If you are interested to know what women (several women, cis, trans and non-binary, of all orientations) have to say, then by all means stay a while and listen, and ask your questions and participate. Many of them have posted in this thread. If you're here to tell us we are wrong, overreacting, or to dismiss our opinions, then please don't bother.

You've got to admit that this is funny coming from someone whose twitter handle is feministfuhrer.
 

LuckyChamCham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
User Banned (Permanent): Persistent dismissive arguments after being banned for the same reasons, continuing to ignore mod warnings/bans. Ban extended on review.
Hey mods, I'M SORRY FOR NOT SHARING THE SAME OPINION AS EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS FUCKING THREAD. JUST BECAUSE I SAY WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR DOES'NT MEAN I'M NOT ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE THREAD, BECAUSE I DON'T SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AS THE OTHERS. FORGIVE ME FOR PROMOTING MY WRONG THINK IN YOUR FUCKING ECHO CHAMBER OF A SITE, I THOUGHT THIS PLACE WOULD BE DIFFERENT WHICH IS WHY I NEVER POSTED AT NEOGAF BUT I GUESS NOT. YOU GUYS HAVE THE POWER TO BAN SO NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH YOU AM I RIGHT? FUCK YOU AND YOUR WAY OF DOING THINGS, I NEVER ATTACKED ANYONE ON HERE NOR WAS I DISMISSIVE AND I GOT BANNED FOR DOING SO. I TRIED MY BEST TO UNDERSTAND THE VIEWS OF THE OTHER MEMBERS AND RESPONDED ACCORDINGLY. YOU WERE SO QUICK TO BAN ME TWICE THAT YOU DID'NT EVEN BOTHER ISSUING A WARNING, JUST A STRAIGHT BAN BECAUSE FUCK ME AND MY DISSENTING OPINION SINCE IT DOES'NT FIT YOUR NARRATIVE. ANYWAY, SINCE YOU'RE GOING TO BAN ME AGAIN BECAUSE I'VE HURT YOUR DELICATE FEELINGS PLEASE MAKE IT PERMANENT AND HAVE FUN IN YOUR SAFE SPACE/ECHO CHAMBER. I DON'T WANT TO BE A PART OF THIS HIVE-MIND COMMUNITY ANYMORE.

Also when you ban someone let them fucking log out of their account lol.. or I'm not allowed to browse the site anymore because I'm not one of you amirite? Fuck this site, have fun with your politics, I'll be having fun playing video games like normal people. :)


*logs out before ban*

Mod edit: Please don't use red fonts.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Dude, you can just ignore threads about politics/social issues. Plenty of people share your opinion on this site, they just don't stick their head in places they don't care about.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Yeah, that'll teach those mods a lesson, clearly you were a hard-done-by poster of rare eloquence and insightful wit indeed.

Ah, *logs out before ban*, the moral victory of the adolescent who has just dumped a load of shit on someone's doorstep and doesn't want to stick around for the consequences.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I find it funny that we're a hive mind because I don't think we actually have that much in common other than a distaste for overly objectified female designs...unless you all are also writing a thesis on Xenoblade Chronicles 2...
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I find it funny that we're a hive mind because I don't think we actually have that much in common other than a distaste for overly objectified female designs...unless you all are also writing a thesis on Xenoblade Chronicles 2...
You'd think even that fairly broad consensus would be obvious from the thread title and OP too. I suppose it's so much easier to insult everyone at once rather than pick a specific point of discussion and well, discuss it. There's been loads of great stuff here that I don't necessarily agree with but found interesting nonetheless.
 

Kapus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
744
Under your bed
Hey mods, I'M SORRY FOR NOT SHARING THE SAME OPINION AS EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS FUCKING THREAD. JUST BECAUSE I SAY WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR DOES'NT MEAN I'M NOT ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE THREAD, BECAUSE I DON'T SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AS THE OTHERS. FORGIVE ME FOR PROMOTING MY WRONG THINK IN YOUR FUCKING ECHO CHAMBER OF A SITE, I THOUGHT THIS PLACE WOULD BE DIFFERENT WHICH IS WHY I NEVER POSTED AT NEOGAF BUT I GUESS NOT. YOU GUYS HAVE THE POWER TO BAN SO NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH YOU AM I RIGHT? FUCK YOU AND YOUR WAY OF DOING THINGS, I NEVER ATTACKED ANYONE ON HERE NOR WAS I DISMISSIVE AND I GOT BANNED FOR DOING SO. I TRIED MY BEST TO UNDERSTAND THE VIEWS OF THE OTHER MEMBERS AND RESPONDED ACCORDINGLY. YOU WERE SO QUICK TO BAN ME TWICE THAT YOU DID'NT EVEN BOTHER ISSUING A WARNING, JUST A STRAIGHT BAN BECAUSE FUCK ME AND MY DISSENTING OPINION SINCE IT DOES'NT FIT YOUR NARRATIVE. ANYWAY, SINCE YOU'RE GOING TO BAN ME AGAIN BECAUSE I'VE HURT YOUR DELICATE FEELINGS PLEASE MAKE IT PERMANENT AND HAVE FUN IN YOUR SAFE SPACE/ECHO CHAMBER. I DON'T WANT TO BE A PART OF THIS HIVE-MIND COMMUNITY ANYMORE.

Also when you ban someone let them fucking log out of their account lol.. or I'm not allowed to browse the site anymore because I'm not one of you amirite? Fuck this site, have fun with your politics, I'll be having fun playing video games like normal people. :)


*logs out before ban*

Mod edit: Please don't use red fonts.
if this was really an issue for you you could have just pm'd one of the mods instead of posting it in this fast paced topic lol.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
if this was really an issue for you you could have just pm'd one of the mods instead of posting it in this fast paced topic lol.
But then people wouldn't have known about his epic takedown of the hivemind, speaking truth to the limitless power of unpaid mods dealing with shitty posts with a weary politeness.
 
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