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Oct 25, 2017
3,784
As perhaps one of the few people here that lived before Internet existed... I think it has connected people in ways that weren't possible before, and things are better in thar regard now. People from different countries casually talking to each other like we're doing now, consider that was impossible for the entirety of human history until just a few decades back.

I lived before the internet existed as well. I know full well the positives of it and just how revolutionary it is for human interaction, at least in theory. It has helped shape my identity, gotten me jobs, led to the pursuit of my own aspirations, and is now making me a killing with digital currency. If it just stopped there, things would be great, but I feel that we've lost a lot in the way of interpersonal interactions with just how ubiquitous non-verbal communication has become, and that's even before we get into the quantifiable rise of hatred and bad politics. People can disassociate themselves much easier when a screen acts as a separator. Even in this very thread whenever some level of vitriol pops up, I imagine it would be a fraction of that were we to communicate face to face. I say this all knowing I've benefited a lot from this method of communication as I have pretty severe social anxiety.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
Not a style I really like.

Aloy's concept makes me think of a "mature" take on disney designs. Still charming but without the overly anime esque eyes. Would love the see something with that sorta slightly anime inspired but unique look.

frozen-concept-art-03.jpg
That's literally just the reference sheet used for normal Elsa. :|
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
As someone in a long (very long ;_;) distance relationship, I think that technology brings out both the best and the worst in people. /boring milquetoast opinion


about the Internet being painfully misogynistic? idk. women, probably

David Attenborough is a national treasure - though tbh he could narrate paint drying and I'd still watch it so.... I mean he got me watching plants. Plants! They aren't cute and fluffy like animals.

plants are the best omg. I love documentaries about carnivorous plants. Pollinization is a fascinating topic as well, and it involves plants AND animals!
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Hmm, fair, I do enjoy watching Planet Earth and there are a lot of animal documentaries I actually like. I guess I was going more into having sex to me is like watching animals having sex on the nature channel. It's not really doing anything for me on a level that its "supposed" to.

Oooh! Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

David Attenborough is a national treasure - though tbh he could narrate paint drying and I'd still watch it so.... I mean he got me watching plants. Plants! They aren't cute and fluffy like animals.

Haha, I was this close to mentioning David Attenborough in my own post; I still remember when they aired The Trials of Life here in Spain.

plants are the best omg. I love documentaries about carnivorous plants. Pollinization is a fascinating topic as well, and it involves plants AND animals!

I admit I don't find most plants particularly interesting but carnivorous plants are the best! I used to have a dionea (venus flytrap), people loved it! I took screenshots every few days and made an animated gif, you can see individual leaves growing into "mouths" (and then dying off, because each doesn't last that much), and also closing them and the dead carcasses of insects when they open again (er, was that too morbid? :D). The gif is quite large so 56k warning:
https://gamingmusings.blogspot.com.es/2010/11/venus-flytrap.html
 
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rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
plants are the best omg. I love documentaries about carnivorous plants. Pollinization is a fascinating topic as well, and it involves plants AND animals!
lol, the thing is my dad studied Botany, so in the age old tradition of rejecting your parents things cuz they are obviously "uncool", I have to hate plants :p I can't admit that something my dad knows is interesting! He'd be insufferable!
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
The English Wilderness
At least we can hope that, in this dystopian future of virtual women enslaved to the needs of antisocial men, technology might also bring us a virtual AI David Attenborough, thus assuring the continuation of nature documentaries for all eternity.

Hopefully, they will develop a virtual Patrick Moore, too.
 

FrankJaeger

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
549
1 Day Ban: A series of rude replies and bad-faith argumentation.
"Who cares"... what? What are you saying here, exactly? Please explain.
I should have worded my point differently - I think this opinion, that RE is somehow bad, and the rest of the Internet is worse - somewhat hilarious.
Though for some people glass is always half-empty.

Aloy was sexier (than 99% of the (embarrassing, pandering) designs you usually see) specifically because she seemed like a real person.
"Stylization" can take a myriad forms. "Hyper-infantilization" is a much more precise description of this particular art shift.
Hyper infantalized stylization, yes. Some words describe things, other words are the thing.
Apparently some people don't understand how to make characters expressive via art style and see it as bunch of evil words for the sake of nerds. Oh well.

You should try reading it again, this time with your comprehension.
Nope, got it first time, just wanted to clarify.

It's actively applying infantile features to an adult woman in order to make her more appealing. It's a thoroughly documented phenomenon. Read a book sometime.
Sorry, I am not specialist on fictional women.
Goodspeed to you in this uneasy study.
Should I send you a hand cream?
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Sorry, I am not specialist on fictional women.
Goodspeed to you in this uneasy study.
Should I send you a hand cream?
"No, I'm not a perv, YOU ARE" is a pointlessly defensive, meaningless argument that gets us nowhere, if that's what you're trying to do here. Especially when we've had people in this topic admit they like some of the very designs they criticize. Not saying you're a pervert, btw, that statement's just the vibe I'm getting from your post.
 

Sony

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
565
With female characters, you get the whole package - big, visible boobs and butts, along with good looking bodies and faces, poses, camera angles, "lore" that forces the character to be basically naked, developers literally designing them by pandering to their own fetishes, etc. - female game characters could generally be supermodels if not porn stars.

Male characters are not sexy just because "abs", "muscles".

Abigail-SFV.jpg

Depicted above: not a supermodel.

I never said that muscles make a male character sexy or attractive by definition.
I said that when women are asked what features they think would make a man sexy, most will answer abs, pecs and a lean muscles in general.
Emphasize those features well enough, and a character is sexualised as it appeals to the opposite sex.



The notorious Xenoverse boobs image floating around, to me – a man – is just as bad as the image of the SF dude you posted.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Sorry, I am not specialist on fictional women.
Goodspeed to you in this uneasy study.
Should I send you a hand cream?

30325.jpg


Hypocrisy aside, I find it incredible that you were only banned for one day for this nauseating, 4chan tier shit. The saddest thing of this all is how the generosity of the mods will be so utterly lost on you, in more senses than one.

It's not unconventional, it's stylised.

OK, I chuckled at this. :)
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,277
I lived before the internet existed as well. I know full well the positives of it and just how revolutionary it is for human interaction, at least in theory. It has helped shape my identity, gotten me jobs, led to the pursuit of my own aspirations, and is now making me a killing with digital currency. If it just stopped there, things would be great, but I feel that we've lost a lot in the way of interpersonal interactions with just how ubiquitous non-verbal communication has become, and that's even before we get into the quantifiable rise of hatred and bad politics. People can disassociate themselves much easier when a screen acts as a separator. Even in this very thread whenever some level of vitriol pops up, I imagine it would be a fraction of that were we to communicate face to face. I say this all knowing I've benefited a lot from this method of communication as I have pretty severe social anxiety.
The benefits of computerization are definitely... questionable. What they allow for, particularly with regards to anonymity, has created an exorbitant rise in hatred and greed. Computerization benefits large corporations, governments and military far more than it improves the lives of individual citizens. That reality seems to be playing out more as those large, profit-driven organizations get better at handling it.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,898
JP
I never said that muscles make a male character sexy or attractive by definition.
I said that when women are asked what features they think would make a man sexy, most will answer abs, pecs and a lean muscles in general.
Emphasize those features well enough, and a character is sexualised as it appeals to the opposite sex.



The notorious Xenoverse boobs image floating around, to me – a man – is just as bad as the image of the SF dude you posted.
It's way more than that, though. Emphasized abs / pecs =/= sexualized character. I mentioned many other elements that help build a sexualized female character - you basically never get those for sexualized male characters.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
The benefits of computerization are definitely... questionable. What they allow for, particularly with regards to anonymity, has created an exorbitant rise in hatred and greed. Computerization benefits large corporations, governments and military far more than it improves the lives of individual citizens. That reality seems to be playing out more as those large, profit-driven organizations get better at handling it.

I have to disagree. From the point of view of first would countries, maybe, but taken as a whole, the Internet has allowed people from all over the world windows into the rest of the world that simply weren't possible before. It's harder (just harder, not impossible) for governments to start wars when your citizens can literally talk to the people living in the other country and realize they're human beings too. It's also harder for them to pull a rug on a lot of things too, both domestic and foreign. This is why governments are so bent on controlling what you can and can't see in the internet.

Still, I believe daily interaction with people around the world has to count for something in regard to empathy towards citizens of other countries and cultures. Remember the screaming minority is the most noticeable: a few thousands of internet trolls don't represent what the silent majority actually takes from the internet. Think of the people you know personally and how they use internet, not the handful of bad apples you have never met and you only know about because they're, well, what they are.

The one thing I do dislike is that easy internet interaction (and worse, asynchronous, public one-to-many interaction) supplants actual, face to face interaction for many people, making relationships shallower; I'm very critical of social networks in particular for this reason.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,288
São Paulo - Brazil
Where Bayonetta fits in this discussion? I'm replaying the game right now and I have to assume I find her awesome, but I wonder if others might have a bad opinion about her? I was reading her Wikipedia article and it seems although her character is praised, the camera angles and other stuff divine opinion.
 

Deleted member 2099

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
658
Where Bayonetta fits in this discussion? I'm replaying the game right now and I have to assume I find her awesome, but I wonder if others might have a bad opinion about her? I was reading her Wikipedia article and it seems although her character is praised, the camera angles and other stuff divine opinion.
My personal take on Bayonetta is that I at least love her personality and her confidence. I wish I had that going for myself, so I look up to her for those two traits. Admittedly, she is also more clothed than most female characters, with the exception of having her back exposed and her legs with the weirdly cut patterns. Also her costumes are... hard to understand too, of course they're all fetish version costumes of other Nintendo characters like the Peach/Daisy dress as well as the non-Nintendo costumes. But I personally never changed her costume and kept it original whenever I do play Bayonetta. Though that is all subtracted because her clothes is part of her power because it is her hair after all that she is wearing. I do find that kind of thing to be a problem with how in order to be more powerful, she becomes more than half naked and then yeah the oggling camera angles. Other than that, everything that comes out of Bayonetta's mouth is pure platinum and I wish to attain that kind of attitude/personality/behavior.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Where Bayonetta fits in this discussion? I'm replaying the game right now and I have to assume I find her awesome, but I wonder if others might have a bad opinion about her? I was reading her Wikipedia article and it seems although her character is praised, the camera angles and other stuff divine opinion.
I've said here before that I liked her a lot (played it this year for the first time) , I'm a man though so my opinion isn't that relevant in this particular topic. She is really sexualized of course, no way around that. But some of the reasons why I like her is that the sexuality is actually a huge part of her character, she doesn't feel like a victim like in many other games where even the male characters are straight up sexually harassing the female characters and making them feel uncomfortable. Or that it would feel like I'm peeking and me following what the camera shows would be done secretly without the character being aware and her consent. It basically feels much less creepy. Ofcourse Quiet is shoving her ass to the camera deliberately too, but I still think that goes bit further from fun ridiculous to dumb ridiculous and doesn't fit in the game or the character. The sexualization doesn't feel out of place for Bayonetta and it also fits tonally in the game which is really over the top and heavily stylized anyway. She also looks and acts like a strong confident woman and not a little girl. And I simply like the design, how she looks. Hair, outfit, her face. I don't think her breasts in example are overly large. Exaggerations in her physique are more about the really long legs and that helps to make her more distinct from more generic fanservice characters.

But this is just me, I don't except others especially women to feel the same way. And my reasoning really might seem like nonsense. I'd be interested to hear why people would think that these are just made up excuses for me to get to see and enjoy sexualized women and her portrayal is just as gross and harmful as something like Quiet or maybe Cindy and Pyra.

As I don't think that every sexualized female character should just stop to exist, this is an example of what I don't mind seeing once in a while. Of course it would still bother me if majority of what we got would be like Bayo. Interested to hear what women of ERA think about her, as my impression is that she's got praise from women feminists almost as much as she's been criticized.
 
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Krauser Kat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,700
Bayonetta herself isnt a sexist design. She knows she is sexy and fights that way. The way the camera portrays her is at odds with her characterization though.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,277
I have to disagree. From the point of view of first would countries, maybe, but taken as a whole, the Internet has allowed people from all over the world windows into the rest of the world that simply weren't possible before. It's harder (just harder, not impossible) for governments to start wars when your citizens can literally talk to the people living in the other country and realize they're human beings too. It's also harder for them to pull a rug on a lot of things too, both domestic and foreign. This is why governments are so bent on controlling what you can and can't see in the internet.

Still, I believe daily interaction with people around the world has to count for something in regard to empathy towards citizens of other countries and cultures. Remember the screaming minority is the most noticeable: a few thousands of internet trolls don't represent what the silent majority actually takes from the internet. Think of the people you know personally and how they use internet, not the handful of bad apples you have never met and you only know about because they're, well, what they are.

The one thing I do dislike is that easy internet interaction (and worse, asynchronous, public one-to-many interaction) supplants actual, face to face interaction for many people, making relationships shallower; I'm very critical of social networks in particular for this reason.
I wasn't just talking about the internet when I said computerization. If communication were the only thing that evolved it probably wouldn't be nearly as disconcerting as it is. Drones, automatic machining, security, surveillance, etc. are all things that have massively changed as a result of computerization. The Internet of Things is more disconcerting to me than the internet (though, obviously as the name suggests, is enabled as a result of the internet). I don't really think people who haven't lived in a state where they are in fear of things like drone strikes can really understand how terrifying that level of computerization can be though.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...ords-congresss-briefing-drone-strikes/354548/
 

empty feat

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,947
Yorkshire, UK
Whenever Bayo is brought up I still just cannot believe what Platinum were thinking with that implied rape scene during the B2(?) boss fight, I mean what the actual fuck.

sorry if this has been raised 700 times already
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Whenever Bayo is brought up I still just cannot believe what Platinum were thinking with that implied rape scene during the B2(?) boss fight, I mean what the actual fuck.

sorry if this has been raised 700 times already
For what little it may be worth, and maybe you're already aware of this, I think the dude in charge insists that wasn't the intent. Though it definitely sure does look like it. I didn't see it when I played, but did see video afterward (through this thread). It's... a weird one, if it wasn't intentional.
 

empty feat

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,947
Yorkshire, UK
For what little it may be worth, and maybe you're already aware of this, I think the dude in charge insists that wasn't the intent. Though it definitely sure does look like it. I didn't see it when I played, but did see video afterward (through this thread). It's... a weird one, if it wasn't intentional.
I've seen it mentioned but I just can't take it in good faith.

The submissive state she's in compared to the boss smoking and looking smug, it couldn't be more implied.

But otherwise Bayo seems to be quite well received as a character so it's not for me to judge.
 
Dec 24, 2017
131
Michigan
Whenever Bayo is brought up I still just cannot believe what Platinum were thinking with that implied rape scene during the B2(?) boss fight, I mean what the actual fuck.

sorry if this has been raised 700 times already

See I was all set to finally get around to playing Bayonetta 1/2 this year upon Switch release since I've not delved into the series till now. But, upon this education... I don't think I want to bring this kind of garbage into my home.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Kamiya has responded to the discussion about implied rape scene http://www.gamesreviews.com/news/12/bayonetta-raped-kamiya-responds/ says there was no rape and gives some explanation. Though I do understand why people could get that impression. But personally I'm inclined to think that Kamiya wouldn't do something so disgusting, even if he certainly likes to have Bayonetta sexualized. And if he did actually include something like that into the game, he would rather be "proud" about it and try to own it than trying to deny it.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I've seen it mentioned but I just can't take it in good faith.

The submissive state she's in compared to the boss smoking and looking smug, it couldn't be more implied.

But otherwise Bayo seems to be quite well received as a character so it's not for me to judge.

See I was all set to finally get around to playing Bayonetta 1/2 this year upon Switch release since I've not delved into the series till now. But, upon this education... I don't think I want to bring this kind of garbage into my home.

Just gonna say while that was probably meant to visually invoke the imagery of sex I don't think were supposed to believe she was actually raped. Especially given the odd relationship she has with the character.

I would find it especially weird since the attack itself is a reference to Street Fighter.

They probably shouldn't have done a gag like that and I understand why it could upset some people, but I don't think she was actually rapped.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Bayonetta herself isnt a sexist design. She knows she is sexy and fights that way. The way the camera portrays her is at odds with her characterization though.
Hmm you could be right. But as I kinda tried to explain in my earlier post why I'm not that bothered by the camera either, I remember her straight up posing for the camera, as she loves the attention she gets. This is why I don't personally feel the camera is at odds with her character. It's like she would be on a catwalk or something and enjoying it.

Edit: Actually, there's the quick still images with photographing sounds when you progress in he game after a fight. Probably helps with that modeling impression I get.
 
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Dec 24, 2017
131
Michigan
Just gonna say while that was probably meant to visually invoke the imagery of sex I don't think were supposed to believe she was actually raped. Especially given the odd relationship she has with the character.

I would find it especially weird since the attack itself is a reference to Street Fighter.

They probably shouldn't have done a gag like that and I understand why it could upset some people, but I don't think she was actually rapped.

I'm not intent on telling anyone, the creator of a game, or otherwise what their intentions were. But I watched the clip of the attack and it felt gross and made me feel really uncomfortable. So while I'm happy to let others own their intentions, I'm also happy to own my interpretations.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
There is an argument to be made that Bayonetta The Character is aware of the camera and plays with it willingly.Of course, since she is a character she has no actual will, but you know what I mean.

Anyway "what do you think of Bayonetta?" comes up every ten pages so I'm really just repeating what everyone always says. :P I don't really have an opinion here, other than I don't really like the games.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I'm not intent on telling anyone, the creator of a game, or otherwise what their intentions were. But I watched the clip of the attack and it felt gross and made me feel really uncomfortable. So while I'm happy to let others own their intentions, I'm also happy to own my interpretations.

I will say that the boss fight that happens in is entirel optional and if I remember correctly that aren't any other moments really like that.

If your still don't wont to get it that's fine but I love this series and just wanted to share.

Sorry about that.
 

empty feat

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,947
Yorkshire, UK
Kamiya has responded to the discussion about implied rape scene http://www.gamesreviews.com/news/12/bayonetta-raped-kamiya-responds/ says there was no rape and gives some explanation. Though I do understand why people could get that impression. But personally I'm inclined to think that Kamiya wouldn't do something so disgusting, even if he certainly likes to have Bayonetta sexualized. And if he did actually include something like that into the game, he would rather be "proud" about it and try to own it than trying to deny it.
Just gonna say while that was probably meant to visually invoke the imagery of sex I don't think were supposed to believe she was actually raped. Especially given the odd relationship she has with the character.

I would find it especially weird since the attack itself is a reference to Street Fighter.

They probably shouldn't have done a gag like that and I understand why it could upset some people, but I don't think she was actually rapped.
Even if it is simply implied sex, the imagery is precisely the sort of content in contention here.

If you want to imply sex, imply sex, don't have the woman looking shamed and small with the man domineering over her like a conquest. It may be a joke to Kamiya but it's really poor judgement imo.
 
Dec 24, 2017
131
Michigan
I will say that the boss fight that happens in is entirel optional and if I remember correctly that aren't any other moments really like that.

If your still don't wont to get it that's fine but I love this series and just wanted to share.

Sorry about that.

No need to be sorry. You're sharing info with me/us and thank you for that.
I've gathered up all the info on the scene at this point and I had learned the fight was optional. Most of what has kept me from the games thus far was being unsure about the character's presentation. So this just tips the scale. No harm in that. So many other games out there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Also, Kamiya gets pissed when you mention there's porn of Bayonetta where she's submissive and says she should always be the one in control, especially if it's non-consensual.

That's why I see the camera as an extension of her more than anything else.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,587
I think Death of the Author applies to Bayonetta. What Kamiya intended doesn't matter. The execution has a certain feel to it to plenty of people and Kamiya doesn't get it. His intentions failed.
 

HypedBeast

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,058
Also, Kamiya gets pissed when you mention there's porn of Bayonetta where she's submissive and says she should always be the one in control, especially if it's non-consensual.

That's why I see the camera as an extension of her more than anything else.
How did you get to speak with Kamiya? Was this on Twitter or was this at a con or something like that?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
Kamiya's twitter is pretty hilarious. Grats on meeting him in person though.

Regarding Bayonetta, those titles have really incredible gameplay. I bought a Switch right after Bayo3 got announced. (Very happy, as I'm having a blast with Odyssey right now.)
It's unfortunate that the visuals and character design are so extreme as to justifiably turn people away from the franchise.

I think Death of the Author applies to Bayonetta. What Kamiya intended doesn't matter. The execution has a certain feel to it to plenty of people and Kamiya doesn't get it. His intentions failed.

This is fair, in terms of that scene.
 
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empty feat

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,947
Yorkshire, UK
Also, Kamiya gets pissed when you mention there's porn of Bayonetta where she's submissive and says she should always be the one in control, especially if it's non-consensual.
Guy must have been so pissed when he released that game with the scene where she's submissive in a sexual context and not in control.

I'd have a little respect for him if he could just own his mistake and say he's learned something.
 

JeTmAn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,825
Bayonetta is porny but not the worst ever design in terms of reasons for a female character to be porny
 
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