Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Valkyr1983]

On the issue of Quiet in MGSV. I actually haven't played the game yet but I've got it in my PS Plus queue. Now that the Pro patch has come out I was actually interested in playing it, but the character design of Quiet is actively putting me off starting. The character's clothing is ridiculous and cringy, to the point that it'd make me a bit embarrassed to be playing the game. My wife would rightly flip out about how dumb it is if she saw that in the TV. (And yes. I did read the story reason why she's dressed like that)

Just an example of this sort of thing totally backfiring. Skimpy crap like this or Xenoblade Chronicles 2 actively puts me off playing. The designs are just too dumb and sexist.

Click to shrink...

Play it

Outside of the mission where you essentially have her join your team, you can choose to never bring her on a mission, and a lot of the "bad" quiet scenes wont happen if you don't bring her along and level up the bond (I quoted bad because I liked all of quiets scenes)

I think quiets issues are overblown for that reason, she can be largely secondary if you choose to have her be

For me, she was my one and only buddy I used, I maxed out our bond and enjoyed the chopper rides, cut scenes and her buddy perks

 

[HypedBeast]

Oh my goodness, this post is so many of my thoughts exactly! It really irritates me how often these kinds of stupid designs are given a pass because so many people commenting on these games can't be arsed to apply even the most basic of critical thought to how they're portrayed vs how they're characterized. I mean, it's really surface-level stuff, yet apparently even that much is too much to ask from a lot of people.

It's an intellectual wasteland out here on the Internet, is what I'm saying. I really would rather like to talk about this and far, far less often about the stupid and cheap justifications people use to justify this pandering.

Click to shrink...

I feel it really depends on the games subject manner and if the design is well done.
For example I think Quiet has a really bad design because her outfit is really ugly and the design really doesn't fit in with MGSV really dark tone.
But the women of Street Fighter always have some bangin designs because they were designed by some of the greatest illustrators in video game history and fit the wacky tone of Street Fighter.

Click to shrink...

 

[Morrigan]

Enough with the derail nitpicking over the quantifiers, or lack thereof, of the title. This is just another derail / deflection attempt and it's insulting and dismissive of the many women who posted in this thread, implying that "they don't count" because they don't match individual anecdotes.

 

[Andrew J]

I agree with the OP. Occasionally there is a sexed-up design that syncs up well with the character's personality, abilities, role, and place in the world, but for the most part they're stupid-looking, dissonant, distracting, and an overall detriment to the player's willing suspension of disbelief; their presence is a signal of open contempt and disregard for girls and women who might potentially want to play the game.

 

[HypedBeast]

Enough with the derail nitpicking over the quantifiers, or lack thereof, of the title. This is just another derail / deflection attempt and it's insulting and dismissive of the many women who posted in this thread, implying that "they don't count" because they don't match individual anecdotes.

Click to shrink...

...Is this message for me?

 

[Laiza]

I feel it really depends on the games subject manner and if the design is well done.
For example I think Quiet has a really bad design because her outfit is really ugly and the design really doesn't fit in with MGSV really dark tone.
But the women of Street Fighter always have some bangin designs because they were designed by some of the greatest illustrators in video game history and fit the wacky tone of Street Fighter.

Click to shrink...

And yet I don't feel catered to when I look at Street Fighter's female character designs because they're pretty much universally sexualized with excessive endowments, and also SFV has no Makoto (seriously, she's the only character in the franchise I actually like).

Irrespective of the quality of their designs, they still have that obvious sexist bias in there, and that is also unfortunate.

 

[Sturm]

I have a general dislike for characters that are overly-sexualised and personally it baffles me to think a scantily clad character with big boobs would entice or heighten somebody's enjoyment of a video game. As you say, it is often immersion breaking or distasteful. I do however find myself a little conflicted on whether having a sexualised character is a bad thing or just something I personally dislike. When games like Mass Effect come out I often see people, male and female, talking about which character they want to bang and perhaps including a bit of titillation for those that like that kind of thing isn't terrible although I accept that none of those characters are as ridiculous as Quiet. I'm a guy so I can't speak to how it feels as a female when most of the characters that do get sexualised are the women either.

Click to shrink...

I am the opposite. I love sexualized characters or whatever they want to call when they go light clothes, I love that they are sexy. A female character with big tits or a good ass along with a good design for my wins points

 

[weemadarthur]

To answer both of these, I think "Why women on ResetERA criticize" would have been a strong enough qualifier (although overly limiting, since obviously many women not on ResetERA also agree) to reduce the amounts of posts OP finds dismissive. The demographic of people here doesn't really match the demographic of most people's real life experiences, so you're going to have people bring in outside anecdotal tales if they take umbrage with the breadth of the title.

But yes, you're both right that, as far as I can tell, the women on ResetERA are pretty much unanimous in this regard. The question I was answering didn't have to do with the opinion of people on this message board, it had to do with how language is generally perceived and received, and an attempt to help OP cut down on replies she didn't like.

Click to shrink...

If you truly believe that would be functional, you must be new to women's issue topics on gaming fora.

 

[Dice]

I am the opposite. I love sexualized characters or whatever they want to call when they go light clothes, I love that they are sexy. A female character with big tits or a good ass along with a good design for my points wins.

Click to shrink...

well at least you're honest~

 

[Morrigan]

...Is this message for me?

Click to shrink...

It's for everyone, but if you weren't talking about that, then no. You got a warning for a different thing, please read it.

 

[Sturm]

well at least you're honest~

Click to shrink...

Of course. Is that there is nothing wrong in recognizing that you like sex and female attributes. Whether in video games, art, or any other artistic medium. It's natural

An example

Spoiler

[

/spoiler]

 

[JCG]

I think quiets issues are overblown for that reason, she can be largely secondary if you choose to have her be

For me, she was my one and only buddy I used, I maxed out our bond and enjoyed the chopper rides, cut scenes and her buddy perks

Click to shrink...

Avoiding her does solve the one issue of looking at her character design and skips those specific scenes, naturally, but MGS V doesn't exactly have a ton of other female characters to begin with, so it would have arguably been better for Kojima to integrate Quiet into the main story in a way that improved her portrayal.

He could have tried to make her a good character with more nuance and agency despite the iffy design, instead of doing rather little (though I admit that particular game's troubled production process makes this proposal sound a lot easier in theory than practice).

 

[DerpHause]

well at least you're honest~

Click to shrink...

There are lots of people like that I'm sure. I don't for a moment think these designs come from a vacuum of customer influence. Both Strum and I are probably reinforcing these decisions with our buying habits. Doesn't mean that's all any of us wants from female characters though, but it almost certainly colorizes our standard of objectification and sexism in game character design. At least in comparison to how others view those aspects.

 

[HypedBeast]

And yet I don't feel catered to when I look at Street Fighter's female character designs because they're pretty much universally sexualized with excessive endowments, and also SFV has no Makoto (seriously, she's the only character in the franchise I actually like).

Irrespective of the quality of their designs, they still have that obvious sexist bias in there, and that is also unfortunate.

Click to shrink...

That is unfortunate you don't feel catered to, but I have to ask why do you dislike the designs because they are sexualized, despite saying they are quality designs?

 

[HypedBeast]

It's for everyone, but if you weren't talking about that, then no. You got a warning for a different thing, please read it.

Click to shrink...

How do you put images in quote tags?

 

[Deleted member 1273]

Enough with the derail nitpicking over the quantifiers, or lack thereof, of the title. This is just another derail / deflection attempt and it's insulting and dismissive of the many women who posted in this thread, implying that "they don't count" because they don't match individual anecdotes.

Click to shrink...

The fact that you use that amazing Lady Maria avatar makes the warning even better, thanks for your work

Also, HypedBeast, my friend, it's time to stop, you are talking alone and double posting and flooding a superb thread with nipitcking. Go and rest.

 

[Valkyr1983]

Avoiding her does solve the one issue of looking at her character design and skips those specific scenes, naturally, but MGS V doesn't exactly have a ton of other female characters to begin with, so it would have arguably been better for Kojima to integrate Quiet into the main story in a way that improved her portrayal.

He could have tried to make her a good character with more nuance and agency despite the iffy design, instead of doing rather little (though I admit that particular game's troubled production process makes this proposal sound a lot easier in theory than practice).

Click to shrink...

I agree.

Was just pointing out mgsv is an awesome game and I would hate to see someone miss out because of one thing they didn't like, and you can kinda work around it

For me, quiet made a solid 8/10 a 9/10 game but I understand how people might not like her at all

 

[CannonFodder52]

How do you put images in quote tags?

Click to shrink...

[quot e] your image [/quot e]

remove the spaces in the word quote.

 

[psychowave]

FE: Heroes says otherwise. I think it be best to wait until FE Switch is revealed before assumptions are made. The developers have stated they'd want future FE titles to follow in the footsteps of Echoes in terms of quality, and hopefully that translates to character desgins. Even though i do like Kozaki's works, i think its time to give another artist the limelight.

Click to shrink...

For a time, Heroes had more different versions of Xander than FE4 or FE5 characters combined. It's a bit better now, but it's still incredibly skewed towards Akaneia/Fateslands characters. Hell, Micaiah and Leif aren't in the game at all, and they're main characters.

I do agree that we should wait and see what happens with FE Switch, but I'm a bit skeptical.

 

[HypedBeast]

The fact that you use that amazing Lady Maria avatar makes the warning even better, thanks for your work

Also, HypedBeast, my friend, it's time to stop, you are talking alone and double posting and flooding a superb thread with nipitcking. Go and rest.

Click to shrink...

Ok.

 

[julia crawford]

That is unfortunate you don't feel catered to, but I have to ask why do you dislike the designs because they are sexualized, despite saying they are quality designs?

Click to shrink...

I've made this point in that other thread. The overt sexualization of a character exists irrespective of the quality of their design. They can be bad or good, regardless. The point of contention are the values being put forward by the choices to sexualize female characters.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm my experience, i see japanese devs failing at this pretty often. How many times have you seen a female character in a japanese game that expect you to take it seriously, wear a sexy and revealing outfit despite said character not having a sexual and seductive personality? Pretty often i bet. Way i see it, this is sex appeal done poorly. It's force, jarring and just feels out of place.

Recent examples: Ann from Persona 5. Velvet from Tales of Berseria. Pyra from Xenoblade 2.

Click to shrink...

The bolded example is a tricky one and I think it mostly comes down to bad writing on part of the developers that's incongruous with what we know about her, other characters that aren't her, and the "lore" of Persona 5 itself. Every Phantom Thief outfit in Persona is a manifestation of their inner subconscious belief of what a "rebel" or delinquent would look like to them, and they usually represent their characters well. Joker, who is an average everyman, turns into an unpredictable ace of spades. Ryuji, a jock unjustly treated and framed for his aggressive disposition, is a swashbuckling avenger. Makoto, an honor-student of vigilance and intelligence, is a domineering presence of high virtue etc. Every character who dons their outfit usually have something positive to say about it, and that's to be expected since the characters themselves conjured those outfits based on their beliefs of breaking free from everyone's assumptions about them.

Then there's Ann, who is the only member of the cast to visibly express frustration about her look, and she makes it a point to remind you this at most turns. This isn't even a case of "female party member has issues with sexualization" because Haru herself points out that out of everyone's Phantom Thief outfits, she likes Ann's the most. It's just kinda baffling that despite everyone loving their own outfits the writers decided to make Ann not like hers, because the outfit kinda makes sense for her character. For one thing, she works as a model and is the "beauty" of the group, so the outfit is a clear play on making her into the group's "femme fatale"; she's a gorgeous character already drawing the looks of many, but as a phantom thief she's someone who's looks invite deadliness. For the other, despite her confidant raising the implication that she's only modeling because she's naturally gifted for it, she actually comes to learn that she does care about her modeling career and wants to put in an honest effort into being good at it. Finally, this isn't the only time the writers kind of treat Ann as a reluctant tag-along. She gets one really good and dark character moment in Chapter 1 but after that, she's frequently strung along in situations she doesn't really have much of a say or control over, such as when she's reluctantly forced to try seducing Yusuke.

For all intents and purposes her Phantom Thief outfit would've made perfect sense in a "beautiful character turns her beauty into a weapon" angle, but to me it was a mistake making her and only her perturbed by what she's wearing. It bums me out because Ann probably has the most traumatizing backstory out of every single person in the group, but they fumble way too much with her to stick the landing, not just in regards to how she sees herself but how the game kind of passes her along in a lot of weird situations that feel so misplaced, as well as making her kind of an air-head in her confidant.

 

[Laiza]

That is unfortunate you don't feel catered to, but I have to ask why do you dislike the designs because they are sexualized, despite saying they are quality designs?

Click to shrink...

Well, disregarding the characters that I don't think are good designs (Cammy being at the top of that list), here's why:

1. I want body types closer to real fit women and not sexualized distortions of what fit women look like. Credit where credit is due, at least Capcom had the good sense to give the women some actual musculature (something distinctly absent from the majority of their competition), but the inflated curves are not a positive in my eyes. It'd be fine if it were, say, one or two characters, but the entire female cast having pretty much the exact same body type is a huge red flag.
2. They can write in as many sexy-sexy characters (Laura being the prime example) as they want, but the intention behind writing those characters in is extremely transparent. Meanwhile, there is no real male equivalent. Even Vega lost some of his bishi-ness despite being the series' prime example of male beauty.
3. I really, really want more atypical female characters. Men get people like Necali and M. Bison and Birdie and whoever that mountain man is they added recently. Women get... um. Sorry, drawing a blank here. Makoto's the only one I can think of and she's not even in SFV.

Really, you could sum it up as "I want more Makoto" and you'd be most of the way there. Only character who really resonates with me in any way, and she's just a side character whose entire gimmick is how dedicated she is to karate (and the fact that apparently a lot of folks mistake her for a boy, which is fine by me).

 

[Jiraiza]

I agree. I get more titillated by a female character whose well-dressed than one that's all tits-and-ass up in my face. The difference is that the former makes more sense in any narrative while the latter is just "why?" On the same note, we need to get rid of boob armor because that stuff is just plain dumb.

 

[HypedBeast]

Well, disregarding the characters that I don't think are good designs (Cammy being at the top of that list), here's why:

1. I want body types closer to real fit women and not sexualized distortions of what fit women look like. Credit where credit is due, at least Capcom had the good sense to give the women some actual musculature (something distinctly absent from the majority of their competition), but the inflated curves are not a positive in my eyes. It'd be fine if it were, say, one or two characters, but the entire female cast having pretty much the exact same body type is a huge red flag.
2. They can write in as many sexy-sexy characters (Laura being the prime example) as they want, but the intention behind writing those characters in is extremely transparent. Meanwhile, there is no real male equivalent. Even Vega lost some of his bishi-ness despite being the series' prime example of male beauty.
3. I really, really want more atypical female characters. Men get people like Necali and M. Bison and Birdie and whoever that mountain man is they added recently. Women get... um. Sorry, drawing a blank here. Makoto's the only one I can think of and she's not even in SFV.

Really, you could sum it up as "I want more Makoto" and you'd be most of the way there. Only character who really resonates with me in any way, and she's just a side character whose entire gimmick is how dedicated she is to karate (and the fact that apparently a lot of folks mistake her for a boy, which is fine by me).

Click to shrink...

Those are all pretty reasonable request, I can respect how succinctly you put your points, though I would say Juri counts as a atypical/evil female character.

 

[Jmdajr]

I like Street Fighter. Always have. But when I play V with my daughter I feel, well...embarrassed. The character designs/outfits are absolutely preposterous. Ridiculous. I can't defend it. When we play I just refer to them as "silly."

Anyhow. My perspective on things sure have changed. I can understand.

I am probably a hypcrorite for still playing it. But at least I see a problem.

 

[Morrigan]

To add to fighting game characters, one thing that annoys me isn't that they're scantily clad, but that their outfits are absurd. I wouldn't mind a martial artist/MMA-type character in skin-tight spandex shorts and a sports bra, and that'd show tons of skin, and I'm sure it could be very sexy too, but it would make sense. But instead we always get characters who wear an outfit that would fall apart at the slightest body movement.

As for scantily-clad fantasy warrior women: why are they almost never wearing loincloths the way male "barbarians" are, but instead, chafing metal that would pierce into their skin so horribly? I wouldn't mind a female barbarian that looked like this(slightly NSFW I guess, rough sketch of a topless woman), but instead they look like... this >_<. And we all know why. It's not about presenting badass tribal/barbarian types, but just another excuse for T&A.

Basically: if you're gonna show some skin, OK, but give those poor women some breast support and comfy underwear, dammit! :)

 

[Lamptramp]

I can understand the frustration outlined in the OP (or at least as much as I am able to).

I find examples such as those in the OP of great detriment to my enjoyment of such games, ridiculous clothing choices, a lack in variation in body types. For me it cheapens the medium.

I agree with the OP. Occasionally there is a sexed-up design that syncs up well with the character's personality, abilities, role, and place in the world, but for the most part they're stupid-looking, dissonant, distracting, and an overall detriment to the player's willing suspension of disbelief; their presence is a signal of open contempt and disregard for girls and women who might potentially want to play the game.

Click to shrink...

In fact, Just as Andrew J says.

There's a lot of discourse in feminist and critical analysis spaces regarding what the female gaze would look like if it can exist at all. Laura Mulvey's "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" is a touchstone text in this consideration; it should be fairly easy to find online. It's been some time since I read it but, if my memory serves, I think she more or less implies that it's impossible for a female gaze to exist as the male does because women lack the power to impose that gaze. In the context of this discussion, women do not sexualize or objectify men in the same pervasive, socially-condoned, universal ways that men do women. There's no parallel to the breasts or ass on the male body; one could maybe argue the penis is, simply because it is genitalia, but even then, it's frequently a symbol of male power and domination.

It's difficult to establish a female gaze when women lack the institutional power to create and implement it in works of media.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for this post, Aomame, I found that text really interesting.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I *am* a prude. Therefore, I don't really see the need for all the displays of skin.

But if I have to look at it, I prefer it as follows:

The best design of a female character ever is Yennifer.

And unlike all the other sorceresses, she's fully-clothed (there are arguably aesthetic/cultural/story reasons for this given where she was during Witcher 1 and Witcher 2), and reveals flesh strategically (grandmothers use to say show one or the other; never both). At any rate, there isn't a more intelligent woman players can encounter over the span of 3 Witcher games...probably in any game I've played.

In the first 25 seconds of this video is the greatest comeback line I've heard a woman say in a video game. Made me chuckle and miss the rest of the conversation the first time I played.


I also enjoyed what she had to say about the bed.


She has her soft moments, too. Exquisitely balanced, exciting character. In every scene she's in, she enraptures. Massive contrast from what I am accustomed to, from eye candy to designs that ask me to suspend disbelief even beyond disbelief.

Second best design goes to the female barbarian in Diablo III.

She is a biiiiig gurl, and I LOVE it. I mean, if you want to talk about sex appeal, this woman can commit demonic genocide while dual-wielding gigantic axes and keep you warm atop a cold mountain. If folks want to talk about body positivism, compare those wide hips that are for bearing armor that would crush most men.

OG Vanessa from VF4 is my third all-time favorite female character design. She looks like if Serena Williams picked up MMA instead of a tennis racket. That booty is skronk, and she will kick your butt hard!

 

[Dmax3901]

I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming when one of the biggest examples of that--that serves to both reinforce and reflect sexist viewpoints--is consistently let slide?

Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure. It's not "puritanism", it's wanting to be treated like goddamn people.

There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. Complaining about that would be prudishness, and a little ridiculous. But it often seems like developers are so desperate for boobs that they're willing to break the audience's suspension of disbelief and hurt their own narrative in the process, and it's like, wow, do you really want to objectify women that badly? Can't you just leave us alone for five fucking minutes? Because Quiet breathing through her skin is not a compelling reason for a trash bag bikini, within the narrative or outside of it. If you really, really want to stick with the skin-breathing, fuck, just dress her in a sports bra and running shorts. At least that would be practical, and not grossly out of character. Cindy is a mechanic in the fucking desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please? We're just so fucking tired of this. And then we get steamrolled by dudes who barge in and try to insist that this shit is actually empowering and we're just prudes, and, like, we get it, you don't want anyone to take your boobs away, stop pretending it's some righteous cause, thanks.

(I've talked about objectified female characters in gaming before, and I have received some amazing responses: I'm jealous because I'm a fat ugly loser; I have no idea what I'm talking about and Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist; "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"... you get the idea. Still, hopefully this time will go a little better.)

Click to shrink...

Very well said, I agree on pretty much everything although it has a lot more weight coming from a woman. Whenever I bring this up (XC 2 and Nier Automata most recently) I get called a prude or white knight, and it just seems people deliberately miss the point in order to preserve the way they think about their precious anime games.

P.S. I love anime games, please don't take offence anyone.

 

[Redcrayon]

To add to fighting game characters, one thing that annoys me isn't that they're scantily clad, but that their outfits are absurd. I wouldn't mind a martial artist/MMA-type character in skin-tight spandex shorts and a sports bra, and that'd show tons of skin, and I'm sure it could be very sexy too, but it would make sense. But instead we always get characters who wear an outfit that would fall apart at the slightest body movement.

As for scantily-clad fantasy warrior women: why are they almost never wearing loincloths the way male "barbarians" are, but instead, chafing metal that would pierce into their skin so horribly? I wouldn't mind a female barbarian that looked like this(slightly NSFW I guess, rough sketch of a topless woman), but instead they look like... this >_<. And we all know why. It's not about presenting badass tribal/barbarian types, but just another excuse for T&A.

Basically: if you're gonna show some skin, OK, but give those poor women some breast support and comfy underwear, dammit! :)

Click to shrink...

With regard to your second example, I don't know what's more bizarre, the huge metal cleaver apparently hanging off her g-string while being supported by three mm of spandex, or the helmet with downward-pointing spikes, ready to impale herself on every time she looks down to wonder why her armour is crawling up her arsecrack. Not to mention the upwards-pointing curved knee spikes. There's combat lingerie designed to titilate and then there's the stuff apparently designed to cripple the wearer!

 

[Furnace Inferno]

I honestly don't care either way. It bothers me far more when some tiny girl is somehow able to easily match or outpace a far stronger male character it's just not realistic at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if it created more issues if they made their characters slower and weaker to accurately reflect the real world and that's before even getting into the cognitive differences. (And before anyone says I'm comparing the athlete to athlete, not the average weakling who would easily outdone by a top female athlete.)

I think what bothers me most is why the black guys nearly always are from the street talking like gangsters?!

 

[Platy]

Please, someone cosplaying a character tells NOTHING about how good or bad that design is.

People cosplay for SO MUCH different reasons

 

[SENPAIatLARGE]

Fighting games are a unique genre where fan service is both accepted and encouraged. Seeing the outpouring of love for Menat on twitter from Straight and Gay men as well as women who love her design, moves and personality is proof of this. I would rather have more Hot Ryus and Urien's than less Juri's and Laura's.

 

[Mr. X]

Those are all pretty reasonable request, I can respect how succinctly you put your points, though I would say Juri counts as a atypical/evil female character.

Click to shrink...

You completely missed the point of point 3. Juri is more of the same when men characters physiques vary vastly from Necalli (crawling beast man), Bison (normal), Birdie (overweight), Abigail (oversized HnK looking dude). SF hasn't had anything like through there female designs ex. something like RIla from Breaker's Revenge http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters5/rila-breakers.html

 

[Gabe]

Well, disregarding the characters that I don't think are good designs (Cammy being at the top of that list), here's why:

1. I want body types closer to real fit women and not sexualized distortions of what fit women look like. Credit where credit is due, at least Capcom had the good sense to give the women some actual musculature (something distinctly absent from the majority of their competition), but the inflated curves are not a positive in my eyes. It'd be fine if it were, say, one or two characters, but the entire female cast having pretty much the exact same body type is a huge red flag.
2. They can write in as many sexy-sexy characters (Laura being the prime example) as they want, but the intention behind writing those characters in is extremely transparent. Meanwhile, there is no real male equivalent. Even Vega lost some of his bishi-ness despite being the series' prime example of male beauty.
3. I really, really want more atypical female characters. Men get people like Necali and M. Bison and Birdie and whoever that mountain man is they added recently. Women get... um. Sorry, drawing a blank here. Makoto's the only one I can think of and she's not even in SFV.

Really, you could sum it up as "I want more Makoto" and you'd be most of the way there. Only character who really resonates with me in any way, and she's just a side character whose entire gimmick is how dedicated she is to karate (and the fact that apparently a lot of folks mistake her for a boy, which is fine by me).

Click to shrink...

I can relate to this completely as a fellow Makoto fan, but it raises another interesting question: especially in fighting games you have fat male characters usually having a "fat moveset".

By that i mean many moves play on the fatness of the character itself.

I 'm wondering if having an extremely fat woman in a fighting game with "fat movesets" wouldn't raise shitstorms around the web as well.
And yes you can of course have "normal" movesets (like rufus for example which is super nimble despite the size) but that's a whole different argument.

 

[SchrodingerC]

I would like to add that, in addition to the clothing itself, the character's body is also a major element in terms of how sexualized the character is, and female characters are very rarely ever displayed with the same sort of raw emphasis on power that the male characters are. Even in games with character creation - even in games with body sliders - you're usually not allowed to deviate much from a sexualized ideal, or it is very difficult to make a female character who looks like, say, a crossfit athlete:



Dragon's Dogma is the lone exception I can think of, and it is a HUGE EXCEPTION. That really shouldn't be the case. If guys are allowed to default to looking like roided up body builders (mind you, this isn't healthy, but it's still better than being a dolled up sex object), the equivalent would be allowing women to look like the female raider from For Honor:

But yeah, that doesn't happen very often. Exceptions upon exceptions. It's a damned shame and I'm tired of being left out of the loop like that. I just want to be able to play characters who represent an ideal that strives for speed and power, something that makes sense for the kinds of things typical video game protagonists do in these games. It's too bloody rare to be given that ability, and I hope it improves over time.

Click to shrink...

Good point. It bugs me when female characters fighting in the same scenarios as their male counterparts still has a body of a model. Like, for gods sakes devs, give your fem characters some muscle definition.

 

[Redcrayon]

I honestly don't care either way. It bothers me far more when some tiny girl is somehow able to easily match or outpace a far stronger male character it's just not realistic at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if it created more issues if they made their characters slower and weaker to accurately reflect the real world and that's before even getting into the cognitive differences. (And before anyone says I'm comparing the athlete to athlete, not the average weakling who would easily outdone by a top female athlete.)

I think what bothers me most is why the black guys nearly always are from the street talking like gangsters?!

Click to shrink...

What do you mean by cognitive differences here? Can you expand on that?

Seeing as men in shooters seem to be able to shrug off dozens of bullet wounds and heroes in RPGs regularly take down monsters and gods twenty times their size, I don't really see how the comparatively small differences between men and women matter too much in heroic games. Even in fighting games where trained male/female athletes are directly opposed, magic powers, jumps twice the height of a man and insane gravity-defying skills are regularly shown off, so the female characters perhaps having less strength is a minor issue compared to the variety of blokes body shapes ranging up to eight feet tall while the women are all tiny.

There's always some dramatic license and suspension of disbelief required for heroes- a distant offshoot of this is comedy child characters in RPGs beating up elite tooled-up special ops troops with improvised weapons. If you can cope with a bloke shrugging off gunfire, I don't really see why a heroine running faster or beating up a guy is so fantastical in comparison.

 

[CannonFodder52]

I honestly don't care either way. It bothers me far more when some tiny girl is somehow able to easily match or outpace a far stronger male character it's just not realistic at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if it created more issues if they made their characters slower and weaker to accurately reflect the real world and that's before even getting into the cognitive differences. (And before anyone says I'm comparing the athlete to athlete, not the average weakling who would easily outdone by a top female athlete.)

Click to shrink...

Games allow people to play out extremely fantasised feats of strength regardless of gender.
I get what you're saying and I'd definitely be happy to see more diverse body types of women in games, but I don't have any issue with average bodied characters doing inhuman things especially when we see it across both genders. Do you get cognitive dissonance when someone uses bullet time?

 

[Pirate Bae]

I *am* a prude. Therefore, I don't really see the need for all the displays of skin.

But if I have to look at it, I prefer it as follows:

The best design of a female character ever is Yennifer.

And unlike all the other sorceresses, she's fully-clothed (there are arguably aesthetic/cultural/story reasons for this given where she was during Witcher 1 and Witcher 2), and reveals flesh strategically (grandmothers use to say show one or the other; never both). At any rate, there isn't a more intelligent woman players can encounter over the span of 3 Witcher games...probably in any game I've played.

In the first 25 seconds of this video is the greatest comeback line I've heard a woman say in a video game. Made me chuckle and miss the rest of the conversation the first time I played.


I also enjoyed what she had to say about the bed.


She has her soft moments, too. Exquisitely balanced, exciting character. In every scene she's in, she enraptures. Massive contrast from what I am accustomed to, from eye candy to designs that ask me to suspend disbelief even beyond disbelief.

Second best design goes to the female barbarian in Diablo III.

She is a biiiiig gurl, and I LOVE it. I mean, if you want to talk about sex appeal, this woman can commit demonic genocide while dual-wielding gigantic axes and keep you warm atop a cold mountain. If folks want to talk about body positivism, compare those wide hips that are for bearing armor that would crush most men.

OG Vanessa from VF4 is my third all-time favorite female character design. She looks like if Serena Williams picked up MMA instead of a tennis racket. That booty is skronk, and she will kick your butt hard!

Click to shrink...

I mean, I'm totally in love with Yen too, but what's your point? If you're gonna come in here and talk about your body preferences on video game women, then don't. It's detrimental to the discussion and it only further proves our point.

Literally nowhere in your post do you discuss the topics presented in the OP.

 

[GUNDAM STARDUST]

Straight male content creators creating content that is their visions/likes primarily, which lines up with being interested in the opposite sex, and idealized "beauty" in the opposite sex. As it's fantasy, you can create slim models, big boobs, big butts and perfect skin very easily. No real-life actors are needed. It's like customizing a sex doll for your creation. Some good reading starting points here

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01205/the-triggers-sexual-desire-men-vs-women

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...iggers-sexual-desire-pt-2-what-s-erotic-women

and using that as leverage in many genres that are still heavily male-dominated

https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/

https://quanticfoundry.com/2016/12/15/primary-motivations/

It would be like asking why in the thousands of romance novels that exist, the male archetype is routinely financially successful, tall, dark-haired, in-shape (sometimes muscular, but at least not overweight), adventurous, risk-taking and often quite dominant/forceful. A difference between novels and gaming though is literally hardly any males read romance novels (because males prefer visual stimulus), but even with the stats/polling above, many females play games. Therefore, on the argument of sales, it can be argued why would romance novels try and be more diverse as no males would buy them anyway? They're catering almost exclusively to their target demographic and the stats back it up.

It's mainly a combination of what ticks in the male generalized creators/audiences minds, sexually/erotically, and how the target marker stacks up for potential sales/interests (is this genre heavily male dominated?). Diversity can come from creating less risk adverse content, and potentially more employment diversity in the industry. Plus, not every male dev/content creator does put out adult/sexual content, there is diversity in the market currently even if many argue it's not currently good enough.

Explanations for why above, including biology/psychology, shouldn't be mistaken for me suggesting that it should always be the case. Some people ask why, but then don't want to engage in some realities as to why.

Click to shrink...

Strong post. I agree.

 

[SweetBellic]

I want to get out of the way that I am a sex positive feminist, and when I criticise sexualized female character designs, it has nothing to do with prudishness or slut-shaming or anything like that; instead, it comes from a place of frustration, because how the hell are we supposed to combat sexism in gaming when one of the biggest examples of that--that serves to both reinforce and reflect sexist viewpoints--is consistently let slide?

Click to shrink...

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but with our wallets. Threads like these are stimulating and cathartic, but whether they yield any meaningful change is doubtful. You have to personally forgo games like MGSV and FFXV, rally boycotts against them, and/or protest with negative user reviews and hope that sales are impacted. That is how you get the attention of developers and, perhaps more importantly, publishers. Purchasing and playing these games and then complaining that you weren't the target demographic is unlikely to affect any meaningful change .

Because yes, if you have a game where all the dudes are covered from head to toe and your one female character is running around in a trash bag bikini and looking thoroughly uncomfortable about it, it's sexist. It reinforces the (already widespread, particularly in gaming "culture") idea that women are objects who exist solely for male titillation and pleasure. It's not "puritanism", it's wanting to be treated like goddamn people.

Click to shrink...

Not to pick on you as I see this feminist platitude echoed everywhere, and maybe I'm insulated, but do even hardcore misogynists really seriously entertain this patently absurd idea, though? This always struck me as a straw man stemming from one-dimensional stereotypes about male sexuality. Just because men enjoy "BEWBS" doesn't mean we reduce women to their breasts and nothing more. Even a character as obscenely sexualized as Quiet is clearly more than a set of breasts in MGSV given her significance to the story and the gameplay. There are certainly an inordinate number of individual shots and animations that pander to the male gaze, but to suggest that Quiet reinforces this absurd notion that she, and other women, exist solely for male titillation and pleasure seems like a stretch.

There's nothing wrong with a female character wearing a bikini if, for example, a game is set on a beach, and the male characters are in their swimming trunks. Complaining about that would be prudishness, and a little ridiculous. But it often seems like developers are so desperate for boobs that they're willing to break the audience's suspension of disbelief and hurt their own narrative in the process, and it's like, wow, do you really want to objectify women that badly? Can't you just leave us alone for five fucking minutes? Because Quiet breathing through her skin is not a compelling reason for a trash bag bikini, within the narrative or outside of it. If you really, really want to stick with the skin-breathing, fuck, just dress her in a sports bra and running shorts. At least that would be practical, and not grossly out of character. Cindy is a mechanic in the fucking desert who walks around in hot pants and a bikini top, because she has grease-repelling skin that never burns, I guess. Meanwhile, Noctis and co. roll up in jeans and t-shirts. It's like, okay, we get it, this game is for dudes and the women are there for eye candy. Can we stop now, please? We're just so fucking tired of this. And then we get steamrolled by dudes who barge in and try to insist that this shit is actually empowering and we're just prudes, and, like, we get it, you don't want anyone to take your boobs away, stop pretending it's some righteous cause, thanks.

Click to shrink...

Not sure about FFXV, but if you've played MGSV you'd know it's a game that also features telekinetic children who fly, a man who is perpetually on fire, and other supernatural elements. The MGS series has always been only partially grounded in reality; each mainline entry has also been rife with elements of science fiction, fantasy, and, yes, pervy fan service from Kojima. In this context, Quiet, while an admittedly extreme example of sexualization, was par the course for MGS and Kojima, and hardly as immersion breaking as you make her out to be. This criticism feels like cherry picking to me as a longtime fan of the series.

(I've talked about objectified female characters in gaming before, and I have received some amazing responses: I'm jealous because I'm a fat ugly loser; I have no idea what I'm talking about and Quiet wearing a trash bag bikini is actually empowering and feminist; "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"... you get the idea. Still, hopefully this time will go a little better.)

Click to shrink...

That's awful, and I understand if these experiences have made you pretty jaded. I hope I haven't come across as this abrasive or cliched. My thing with sexualized female character designs is, quite simply, that I enjoy them and, in some instances, they enhance the game for me. I can appreciate that you don't enjoy them and get it if you want to judge me for doing so. But, my thinking is that while I would like the gaming industry as a whole to be as inclusive as possible, and alienate as few people as possible, I would hate for every individual game to be held to this standard. That would lead to a bunch of homogeneous family games, which is the last thing anyone wants for this industry. I think there's room in this industry for games to target a variety of demographics at the "exclusion" of others, including horny young men.

TLDR: "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"

 

[Omnistalgic]

Unfortunately, the fact that it's in gaming (a form of entertainment) means it's still proliferate in even more unacceptable circumstances such as business, politics, and even government which laughably should be the highest level of decency and professionalism.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but with our wallets.

Click to shrink...

I keep seeing this yet we have literal evidence of critique leading to developers becoming more aware of systemic sexism and adapting their design based on, among other things, Anita Sarkeesian's video series. Change comes from spreading ideas as much (if not more) as sales.

Btw you can both enjoy sexy women in games AND critique them and be mindful of their effects on perpetuating sexism at the same time. Crazy stuff! And no, it doesn't make you a hypocrite because your private relation to sexuality is your own, but it also does wonders to do some self-reflection and realize where it all comes from instead of using it as an excuse to maintain the status quo. Your eroge games won't go anywhere, I promise.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but with our wallets. Threads like these are stimulating and cathartic, but whether they yield any meaningful change is doubtful. You have to personally forgo games like MGSV and FFXV, rally boycotts against them, and/or protest with negative user reviews and hope that sales are impacted. That is how you get the attention of developers and, perhaps more importantly, publishers. Purchasing and playing these games and then complaining that you weren't the target demographic is unlikely to affect any meaningful change .

Not to pick on you as I see this feminist platitude echoed everywhere, and maybe I'm insulated, but do even hardcore misogynists really seriously entertain this patently absurd idea, though? This always struck me as a straw man stemming from one-dimensional stereotypes about male sexuality. Just because men enjoy "BEWBS" doesn't mean we reduce women to their breasts and nothing more. Even a character as obscenely sexualized as Quiet is clearly more than a set of breasts in MGSV given her significance to the story and the gameplay. There are certainly an inordinate number of individual shots and animations that pander to the male gaze, but to suggest that Quiet reinforces this absurd notion that she, and other women, exist solely for male titillation and pleasure seems like a stretch.

Not sure about FFXV, but if you've played MGSV you'd know it's a game that also features telekinetic children who fly, a man who is perpetually on fire, and other supernatural elements. The MGS series has always been only partially grounded in reality; each mainline entry has also been rife with elements of science fiction, fantasy, and, yes, pervy fan service from Kojima. In this context, Quiet, while an admittedly extreme example of sexualization, was par the course for MGS and Kojima, and hardly as immersion breaking as you make her out to be. This criticism feels like cherry picking to me as a longtime fan of the series.

That's awful, and I understand if these experiences have made you pretty jaded. I hope I haven't come across as this abrasive or cliched. My thing with sexualized female character designs is, quite simply, that I enjoy them and, in some instances, they enhance the game for me. I can appreciate that you don't enjoy them and get it if you want to judge me for doing so. But, my thinking is that while I would like the gaming industry as a whole to be as inclusive as possible, and alienate as few people as possible, I would hate for every individual game to be held to this standard. That would lead to a bunch of homogeneous family games, which is the last thing anyone wants for this industry. I think there's room in this industry for games to target a variety of demographics at the "exclusion" of others, including horny young men.

TLDR: "ohmygod why are you trying to take away my BEWBS"

Click to shrink...

Not to pick on you directly, but for my own interests as I've been rabbiting on about psychology and biology, and as one individual who as outright admitted to enjoying sexualised content (I bolded it in your post what you said), is it because it is visually stimulating? Like, would you prefer a love story roleplay (like some games attempt), or is it just a visually accented or highly stimulating design getting the internal wink wink in your head? I'm not criticising you, by the way, I'm just asking. Quite honestly most of the visual stimulation experiments and research around men understandably focus on porn, advertisements, male magazines and real-life depictions of women. I think it would be quite interesting if we could see more research done into fantasy, pixels, and video games. Fantasy is often tackled in research, but a lot of that has been around romance novels and women. Porn while obviously often acting/drama, still involves real people/real nudity, where as books are purely imagination. I think sex dolls and AI are currently taking the limelight for research right now though.

To be more specific if you'd elaborate is it the fact skin is often on display, such as boobs, sometimes only with a tiny nipple covering and outfits that are skin tight? Or do other aspects of the character like VA come into play, hair colour, hair style, and so on? A combination of all, from nudity to finer details like hairstyle and accent? For an example, I'm currently playing Mass Effect Andromeda and while Suvi's accent seems "normal" to me, as I'm British, I've seen quite a few online exoticize her accent because to say, Americans, or some Europeans, a Scottish accent might stand out and add to the fantasy. It's something different/unique to some as due to geographical location some things like accent stand out. I mean her character model by typical average beauty standards is still quite "ideal" for many men. Although the irony in Andromeda for anyone who has played it is Suvi bats for the other team lol. No luck thirsty male gamers.

If you don't want to answer anyone else is free to answer. Hey, maybe if I spend more time doing actual research and work into child psychology around sex education, I'll do more myself on how video games play a part and it's not all just about porn, lads mags and nude pictures of women on the internet. Especially as graphics quality increases in video games and we reach uncanny valley. It's reaching a point where some games could look like a genuine porn video from a few feet away. It isn't real people though, even if visually it looks to be. That's what makes gaming interesting to discuss and debate, and why if you ask me many men are still titillated as "effeciently" as they are by gaming graphics compared to real nudity.

However, that also plays into why I call some anime and gaming depictions unethical when it involves child like appearances. That's another topic though.

 

[DerpHause]

I keep seeing this yet we have literal evidence of critique leading to developers becoming more aware of systemic sexism and adapting their design based on, among other things, Anita Sarkeesian's video series. Change comes from spreading ideas as much (if not more) as sales.

Click to shrink...

Fundamentally your both right on a certain level. In order for wallet voting to work devs and publishers need to know why people aren't buying. Alternatively, if devs/publishers believe financial incentives favor those elements they won't move away from them save when they've made a specific point in being receptive.

 

[Waddle Dee]

I can't even really imagine what it must be like to be a woman. The amount of blatant sexism in games/movies/everything must be really overbearing and mentally draining after a while. If it were the other way around I'm sure I would be exhausted with all these pieces of "entertainment" telling me I'm not hot enough and don't live up to some sort of standard.

As a man, I can only eye roll at the pervasive fanservice culture we live in. It's getting better, but not by much. I think the games industry would actually do better financially if games were more open to different types of people and had less sexist stuff in them. Some companies have proved that making more inviting games that are less hostile towards women can be huge successes (Nintendo is a good example of this, but they still have their misfires such as their waifu Fire Emblem games).

 

[Asbsand]

What I'm curious about is the origin of that contrast between male and female characters in the dev process.

You mentioned Quiet - but was that Kojima falling short in creative execution? Was it Konami saying female nudity sells more copies? Or was it focus testers recommending a scantily clad female character?

I guess what always confuses me is when characters become unnecessary sexualized in the production cycle. Maybe if we can pinpoint some type of commonality across multiple games, we'll be able to understand where those decisions originate?

Click to shrink...

There were those horror stories about EA/BioWare during their ME3/DA2 years and honestly, even me as someone who generally doesn't care too much about these kinds of things when I'm just playing a game, I found it distracting with the overemphasized boob sizes on main female characters in this era... and it was all fans could talk about too. The first thing that comes to mind when I think about a character like Bethany who was the MC's sister in DA2 was fans fawning over her boobs and honestly they were drawing attention to themselves. Even her writer criticized this claiming that it wasn't in her own notes that the character should've looked anything like that, so you can bet it was either some EA marketing level stunt or some modelers who thought "women should look super sexy, right, can't have it any other way!"

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Probably not the answer you're looking for, but with our wallets.

Click to shrink...

Restricting your purchase habits without voicing why you aren't buying something is not effective. There are a million reasons why a game may not sell. If you don't voice why you don't like something or wont purchase it no one will know. Literally female representation and minority representation in gaming has only improved because people voiced a desire for these things. They didn't magically change because the male dominated gaming sphere totally realized hyper sexualized women and only males in leading roles was the wrong approach.

 

[Brotherhood93]

I am the opposite. I love sexualized characters or whatever they want to call when they go light clothes, I love that they are sexy. A female character with big tits or a good ass along with a good design for my wins points

Click to shrink...

Yeah, this is kinda the point I was trying to make. I don't like sexualised characters but others do, I'm not sure if there's anything inherently wrong with that. I'd be interested to see if there's any studies between exposure to sexualised characters and sexist behaviour, I must admit I am pretty ignorant as to whether they exist or not, but part of me feels like those who blame misogyny on depictions of female characters are similar to those who blame real-world violence on violent video games. Most people are old enough and mature enough to know the difference between a sexy video game character and a real human being although I can also see the argument that it can warp people's perception of reality when the women are sometimes only there for titillation, especially for younger, adolescent players. It's not a simple issue to dissect that's for certain because everybody seems to have differing opinions on what is or isn't acceptable/tasteful.