Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Mezentine]

Yeah, the designer for this must be a really creepy misogynist pervert

Oh,wait.......

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As discussed previously women are entirely capable of creating sexist work, although the discussion of if she herself is sexist is one we should stay away from. Regardless "it was made by a woman!!" is not a discussion ending trump card

 

[Dust]

No one should be generalizing, for example my GF loves 2B and DoA girls, while she hates Life is Strange girls (calls them plain and annoying, wanted to murder Chloe).

Girls also have different tastes and look for different things (she likes pretty/sexy characters).

 

[CannonFodder52]

Yeah, the designer for this must be a really creepy misogynist pervert

Oh,wait.......

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That's not a good gatcha'

This discussion is uncomfortable because imo it has undertones of "well, people will always keep buying games with degrading representations of women in them, and there's nothing you can or should do about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

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Yea, the free market argument is fairly obnoxious. It really only serves to shout down posters in this thread.

 

[Amiibola]

EDIT after mod warning: It was really not my intention to offend nor mock anyone. I'll stay out of the thread from now on. If someone wants to reach me about it, please use MPs

This doesn't make a lot of sense unless you have figures showing the growth in women playing games is driven by them being consumers of these particular sort of fetishy fanservice japanese games

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This, and the niche hentai artists are the kind of hyperbole i'm talking about. Risque designs doesn't make a game a fetishy fanservice game. Taking on Xenoblade 2, wich is the hot topic today, i can't help but thinking that maaaaaybe those are really the designs the artists had in mind, gross or don't, and Monoloth/Nintendo wanted to respect that, and maybe, just maybe there's no ulterior motives behind them. As far as i read about the game it seems to be well written and there's not much focus, if any, on sexualizing the characters whatsoever, wich would contradict the claim of a game and characters designed to pander only a determined demographic.

You know, there's a spanish twitter account created by the right-wing forum forocoches posing as a feminist twitter account and dedicated to post ridiculous and overblown statements with objective of hurting the cause. This thread reminds me to that account sometimes, to the point of making me question the validity of some claims.

This discussion is uncomfortable because imo it has undertones of "well, people will always keep buying games with degrading representations of women in them, and there's nothing you can or should do about it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

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There's also the claims that imply that only sexist otakus buy those games, wich maybe should be taken in account too.

 

[psychowave]

Exactly why I hardly find myself with enough interest to post in the thread more often.

I mean, gosh, if you folks pushing that mindset want me to quit gaming forever, you're certainly on the road to doing so. That kind of makes you an asshole, though. Marginalizing already-marginalized voices by reminding us of how marginalized we are is... a dick move, isn't? Can't we agree on that much? There's no need to try to reinforce my powerlessness in the face of greater market forces or what-have-you. It's just rude. It's like kicking people while they're down - no one with any heart is going to do such a thing, so why are you going into this thread specifically do to that? Do you not realize how poorly that reflects on your character?

I wanted to talk about how much the design reflects the characterization and how there is actually a direct line between the qualities and aspects of a design and the characterization itself, but right now I just feel emotionally exhausted and what to go... play some video games that don't have this shit in it. Good thing I have Dark Souls for that, eh?

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If it helps at all, I'm exactly in the same situation as you :/ It hurts to see people who aren't affected by the issue be like "welp people still buy these games soooooooo". Like, I get it. Most people are fine with degrading women, and the ones that aren't put up with it because there's almost no video games out there that don't do it in some way. Thanks for the reminder though lol

 

[MetalLord]

As discussed previously women are entirely capable of creating sexist work, although the discussion of if she herself is sexist is one we should stay away from. Regardless "it was made by a woman!!" is not a discussion ending trump card

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She is a freelancer designer, the guest blade designers were given free reign to do wherever they want,if they were forced to make sexual deisgns every blade would look creepy,the same designer also made this :

 

[SieteBlanco]

Eh? The ridiculous XBC2 design was by the designer of Sheryl from Macross Frontier? It doesn't make it any less ugly, but she was probably going for some sort of "elaborate flashy pop star" sorta look.

 

[Mezentine]

This, and the niche hentai artists are the kind of hyperbole i'm talking about. Risque designs doesn't make a game a fetishy fanservice game. Taking on Xenoblade 2, wich is the hot topic today, i can't help but thinking that maaaaaybe those are really the designs the artists had in mind, gross or don't, and Monoloth/Nintendo wanted to respect that, and maybe, just maybe there's no ulterior motives behind them. As far as i read about the game it seems to be well written and there's not much focus, if any, on sexualizing the characters whatsoever, wich would contradict the claim of a game and characters designed to pander only a determined demographic.

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I picked the word "fetish" very specifically here because it does seem to be the aesthetic a ton of these outfits draw from. You could take this (slightly NSFW) outfit, make it purple and give her a sword and she could stand alongside a lot of these designs. I mean, hell, how far off is that from Pyra's design when you remove all the techno-junk on her costume?

 

[Chaparral]

That's not a good gatcha'



Yea, the free market argument is fairly obnoxious. It really only serves to shout down posters in this thread.

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'Free market is god! It allows me my anime titties!' is what the free market argument boils down to. And indeed it is obnoxious and has a very specific point to discredit otherwise sound arguments.

 

[psychowave]

I picked the word "fetish" very specifically here because it does seem to be the aesthetic a ton of these outfits draw from. You could take this (slightly NSFW) outfit, make it purple and give her a sword and she could stand alongside a lot of these designs. I mean, hell, how far off is that from Pyra's design when you remove all the techno-junk on her costume?

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Hell, Pyra's outfit is arguably more fetishy than this, lol.

'Free market is god! It allows me my anime titties!' is what the free market argument boils down to. And indeed it is obnoxious and has a very specific point to discredit otherwise sound arguments.

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"If the free market allows for it then there's no point in criticizing it!"

 

[Chaparral]

Hell, Pyra's outfit is arguably more fetishy than this, lol.



"If the free market allows for it then there's no point in criticizing it!"

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See, I honestly believe that the free market argument should probably be added to the commandments in the OP.

Fake edit: I mean it's already there in a way with 'don't buy the game' but it should probably be including this specific argument as well.

 

[Mezentine]

Hell, Pyra's outfit is arguably more fetishy than this, lol.

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lol I was trying to find stuff I could safely link to on this forum

 

[incogneato]

This, and the niche hentai artists are the kind of hyperbole i'm talking about. Risque designs doesn't make a game a fetishy fanservice game. Taking on Xenoblade 2, wich is the hot topic today, i can't help but thinking that maaaaaybe those are really the designs the artists had in mind, gross or don't, and Monoloth/Nintendo wanted to respect that, and maybe, just maybe there's no ulterior motives behind them. As far as i read about the game it seems to be well written and there's not much focus, if any, on sexualizing the characters whatsoever, wich would contradict the claim of a game and characters designed to pander only a determined demographic.

You know, there's a spanish twitter account created by the right-wing forum forocoches posing as a feminist twitter account and dedicated to post ridiculous and overblown statements with objective of hurting the cause. This thread reminds me to that account sometimes, to the point of making me question the validity of some claims.

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I think labeling Xenoblade 2 as a "fetish game" is off the mark primarily because it puts it in the same lane as something like Huniepop or Sengoku Rance, literal video games that are meant to titilate the presumed straight male player. Also, Xenoblade 2's sexualized character designs are not inherently bad if the sexualization is balanced with other non-sexualized depictions of women in the game, or if the developers aim to go for something more than using sexualized video games characters as mere props.

But, the issue that many are taking here is that depictions of sexualization are often blatant and do not do anything to further explore fully realized depictions of female sexuality. A woman's sexuality in a video game is often used as windowdressing to titilate the presumed straight male player without any regard for any other demographic. Because women, as I posted before, have a sizable demographic in the single-player RPG franchises, it is important to keep them in mind when making design decisions.

Now, I haven't played Xenoblade, and I fully intend to so I can equip myself with more knowledge on whether there's more to the game than sexualized depictions of women, but I think we should avoid hyperbole going forward in order to not muddle the conversation. And, we should avoid shouting down on other people as well when most are merely venting their concerns.

 

[PCPace]

I'm only into Chapter 3 so far but the interesting thing to me has been that while the main blade and some other blades have had sexualized designs, the characters themselves aren't sexualized at all in terms of character, how they talk, or how other characters react to them.

 

[psychowave]

See, I honestly believe that the free market argument should probably be added to the commandments in the OP.

Fake edit: I mean it's already there in a way with 'don't buy the game' but it should probably be including this specific argument as well.

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Yeah. It's turning the discussion from how women feel about this (i.e. what the discussion was meant to be) into men talking about how welp people still buy these games so w/e

 

[incogneato]

I'm only into Chapter 3 so far but the interesting thing to me has been that while the main blade and some other blades have had sexualized designs, the characters themselves aren't sexualized at all in terms of character, how they talk, or how other characters react to them.

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Are there sexualized male blades? I've only seen instances of sexualized female blades so I assumed that blades only took on feminine visual representations of themselves.

 

[Laiza]

If it helps at all, I'm exactly in the same situation as you :/ It hurts to see people who aren't affected by the issue be like "welp people still buy these games soooooooo". Like, I get it. Most people are fine with degrading women, and the ones that aren't put up with it because there's almost no video games out there that don't do it in some way. Thanks for the reminder though lol

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Thanks for that. Yeah, this thread is a great reminder that we're not alone in being affected by these things, despite how the rest of the forum (and really, the entire gaming community) tends to be...

I'm only into Chapter 3 so far but the interesting thing to me has been that while the main blade and some other blades have had sexualized designs, the characters themselves aren't sexualized at all in terms of character, how they talk, or how other characters react to them.

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That's what I wanted to touch on earlier - the fact that the way the characters are dressed is seemingly completely divorced from their characterization, in a way that can pull you out of the experience if you stop to actually question it all. Why is she wearing this outfit, and why is no one pointing out the weirdness of it all when no one else (that isn't a rare blade) is dressed that way? It's jarring and is quite revealing of the developers' priorities in that regard.

 

[Mezentine]

Are there sexualized male blades? I've only seen instances of sexualized female blades so I assumed that blades only took on feminine visual representations of themselves.

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There's one, arguably two sexualized male blades and a handful of heavily armored male ones as well. To my knowledge the majority of the rare blades are female, and a good chunk of them are designed in the way we're criticizing

You can see more info here: http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Blade

 

[Chaparral]

Yeah. It's turning the discussion from how women feel about this (i.e. what the discussion was meant to be) into men talking about how welp people still buy these games so w/e

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Then again, it's always a cycle with this thread considering there are always going to be someone looking to specifically derail and shit up the thread with bogus talking points, or trying to lead the debate down a malicious road. It's like whack a mole in a way.

 

[Amiibola]

I picked the word "fetish" very specifically here because it does seem to be the aesthetic a ton of these outfits draw from. You could take this (slightly NSFW) outfit, make it purple and give her a sword and she could stand alongside a lot of these designs. I mean, hell, how far off is that from Pyra's design when you remove all the techno-junk on her costume?

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Again, hyperbole. You can take any desing an take off junk until it adjust to your claim. I get what you mean, but i don't think the exaggeration is neccesary

Then again, it's only the designs what we're talking about here? So far i know those are inadequate, but, maybe it's just me, a character it's no only its looks, but also how it is written. Let's take Eliie from TloU for example, would it be such a good character if her role were basically a damsel in distress? Isn't RE4's Ashley main issue the fact that she's basically useless?

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Yeah, the designer for this must be a really creepy misogynist pervert

Oh,wait.......

Click to shrink...

Man, you sure got us. I mean, no way a woman could internalize misogyny and/or contribute to the issue of media representation in a negative way regardless, right? ...right?

 

[PCPace]

Are there sexualized male blades? I've only seen instances of sexualized female blades so I assumed that blades only took on feminine visual representations of themselves.

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I only have five blades so far, and two I unlocked that aren't story blades were generic commons with non sexualized designs. The other two I have are a cute non sexy girl robot and a tiger. The non party blades have had one sexualized female one, an alien looking one, and a kind of pixieish female one. I'm not really that far in the game.

 

[Eolz]

This thread isn't about changing it, it's about explaining why we want these things to change and helping people get an understanding of that reasoning.

A single thread on a niche discussion forum like this is obviously not going to lead to developers changing much of anything, that much is certain. We can, however, hopefully get some folks on the fence up to speed with why we're so off-put by these kinds of designs.

A thread specifically about activism would be a much more appropriate venue for this type of argument.

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how is it relevant to criticism of design?

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It's not entirely revelant, but those past pages went into a different direction than just design criticism, and people were engaging that discussion. Hence my post which was relevant at that time (didn't know that we were back to another topic now).
As said in the first quote, this is indeed a bit hard to focus on only one part of a wider discussion in such a big thread. There's enough examples for that in those past 123 pages. But there's still valid points in understanding the wider market to have better criticism than just "i like/don't like it", as this allows to have a better and wider point of view on what is happening and why things need to evolve and/or why X didn't/won't change.

 

[Amiibola]

I think labeling Xenoblade 2 as a "fetish game" is off the mark primarily because it puts it in the same lane as something like Huniepop or Sengoku Rance, literal video games that are meant to titilate the presumed straight male player.

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You DO realize you used two erogames as examples, don't you?

 

[SieteBlanco]

You're all completely ignoring the crux of what I wrote, even if I clarified it pretty succinctly. Nobody can do much about sales, but the critical and general reception of something like Persona 5 or Nier Automata or even Fates is a different thing. Even if people did make fun of the designs of the Nohrian female characters, I'm sure the "petting mini-game" made more noise during the pre-localization period, before we even knew it was completely cut.

 

[Mezentine]

Again, hyperbole. You can take any desing an take off junk until it adjust to your claim. I get what you mean, but i don't think the exaggeration is neccesary

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I don't know how to react to this other than to think that you're being disingenuous if you think that's hyperbole. Again, for reference, Pyra, and the image I linked

you really do not find their designs reasonably similar?

 

[Dary]

Plenty of people ready to jump to the defence of the artists, so few willing to ask the simple question that is: if they were given free rein over their design, why did so many default to "sexualised women"? Or, indeed, sexualised girls...

 

[incogneato]

Thanks for that. Yeah, this thread is a great reminder that we're not alone in being affected by these things, despite how the rest of the forum (and really, the entire gaming community) tends to be...


That's what I wanted to touch on earlier - the fact that the way the characters are dressed is seemingly completely divorced from their characterization, in a way that can pull you out of the experience if you stop to actually question it all. Why is she wearing this outfit, and why is no one pointing out the weirdness of it all when no one else (that isn't a rare blade) is dressed that way? It's jarring and is quite revealing of the developers' priorities in that regard.

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I agree. I think sexy designs are fine if it reflects who that character is and if the developers make a genuine attempt to explore her character's sexuality. I don't know of any meaningful video games that fully expresses female sexuality positively from the top of my head.

There's one, arguably two sexualized male blades and a handful of heavily armored male ones as well. To my knowledge the majority of the rare blades are female, and a good chunk of them are designed in the way we're criticizing

You can see more info here: http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Blade

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Interesting, thank you. I'm just wondering who finds these types of designs sexy, though? They seem to be caricatures of female bodies moreso than genuine attempts to titilate anyone. I've noticed whenever a male character is sexualized, their designs are equally just as ridiculous and not as "sexy" in the traditional sense like Voldo from the Soul Calibur series.

You DO realize you used two erogames as examples, don't you?

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Yes... I agreed with you that we shouldn't use the term fetish game because it puts the game in the same lane as an actual fetish game. Doing this only makes it more difficult to analyze the impacts of overt sexualization in games that are not intended to just be a porno...

 

[MetalLord]

Man, you sure got us. I mean, no way a woman could internalize misogyny and/or contribute to the issue of media representation in a negative way regardless, right? ...right?

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No, the funny about this is that people were saiyng the anatomy dont make any sense, that whorever created this have never seen a pair of boobs in his life and in this end the creator have a pair of boobs

 

[Ogodei]

I do feel like Nintendo's deliberately encouraging these things, although Monolith Soft was on the "waifu" train long before the Nintendo buyout. That stuff was all over Xenosaga.

 

[captainpat]

No, the funny about this is that people were saiyng the anatomy dont make any sense, that whorever created this have never seen a pair of boobs in his life and in this end the creator have a pair of boobs

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She just did char design she didn't model it.

 

[Eolz]

I picked the word "fetish" very specifically here because it does seem to be the aesthetic a ton of these outfits draw from. You could take this (slightly NSFW) outfit, make it purple and give her a sword and she could stand alongside a lot of these designs. I mean, hell, how far off is that from Pyra's design when you remove all the techno-junk on her costume?

Click to shrink...

I don't know how to react to this other than to think that you're being disingenuous if you think that's hyperbole. Again, for reference, Pyra, and the image I linked

you really do not find their designs reasonably similar?

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I'm sorry but no. This is hyperbole.
Compare the heel size, how much of her torso is covered, the difference in design, accessories, etc.
It sounds like those posts comparing this character to a stripper in another thread.

 

[psychowave]

tbh fetish lady is more tasteful than Pyra because you can't see her actual thong

 

[Opa-Pa]

Really says something that I find that IRL lady's outfit more tasteful than Pyra's lol. Not to mention she actually looks like an adult too.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'm only into Chapter 3 so far but the interesting thing to me has been that while the main blade and some other blades have had sexualized designs, the characters themselves aren't sexualized at all in terms of character, how they talk, or how other characters react to them.

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I'm still on chapter 2, but I already like Nia quite a bit. I know the whole catgirtl thing is a take it or leave it kinda thing for many, but I still got a laugh at

Spoiler

her reaction to the towns Wanted poster of what they thought she looked like, which appeared to be literal humanoid cat.

 

[Alkaiser]

That argument doesn't work at all. There are lots of women actively participating in and enjoying mediums despite whatever negative messages about women those mediums might be disseminating. In other words, female participants aren't waiting for things to look the way they want them to look exactly before getting into the game. Also, participation does not equal or signify equity, equality, sensible representation, or anything else. It just means there's more interest or more desire to participate.

More women in video games could imply a number of things, but I don't think you can make the jump to "it flies in the face of the idea that these trends are problematic to female gamers" for those reasons. They can participate in greater numbers and want better representation at the same time. Arguing counterwise is akin to arguments people make about socialism: "you want socialism but you own an iPhone! good luck with that!" it's a too simplistic argument that ignores a whole host subtler details, among them the reality of starting from the currently existing situation (in socialism, that's capitalism; in video games, it's a field where poor representations of women exist all over the place). It also ignores entirely the number of men who agree with women and find these representations problematic too. In fact, it seems like an end run around the problem altogether. Market forces =/= human experiences.

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Well said.

 

[Morrigan]

Posters like Pablo Mesa and Velezcora need to exit this thread.

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This is unnecessary and you should probably apologize.

 

[Mezentine]

I'm sorry but no. This is hyperbole.
Compare the heel size, how much of her torso is covered, the difference in design, accessories, etc.
It sounds like those posts comparing this character to a stripper in another thread.

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Pyra is also literally in a 2 inch microskirt and each of her breasts is held in a perfectly contoured top

 

[Amiibola]

I don't know how to react to this other than to think that you're being disingenuous if you think that's hyperbole. Again, for reference, Pyra, and the image I linked

you really do not find their designs reasonably similar?

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Ok, i have to admit, i didn't noticed Pyra's nude sides and short shorts, but part of my point still stands. You can take as much as you want from any design to adjust it to your claim. I don't think it's actually fair.

Plenty of people ready to jump to the defence of the artists, so few willing to ask the simple question that is: if they were given free rein over their design, why did so many default to "sexualised women"? Or, indeed, sexualised girls...

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Well, you literally called them (and i copypaste) niche hentai artists. To have a proper debate, you have to keep the BS to the minimum, otherwise, man or woman, feminist or sexist, you will be called out. I think it IS fair.

 

[CannonFodder52]

No, the funny about this is that people were saiyng the anatomy dont make any sense, that whorever created this have never seen a pair of boobs in his life and in this end the creator have a pair of boobs

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I don't think the main takeaway people had, was that the artist doesn't understand the human anatomy.

 

[Mezentine]

Ok, i have to admit, i didn't noticed Pyra's nude sides and short shorts, but part of my point still stands. You can take as much as you want from any design to adjust it to your claim. I don't think it's actually fair.

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Did you see the designs I posted on the last page? Or many of the others in the game? Many of which feature various combinations of heels, thigh-highs, barely concealed breasts, almost-a-thongs, straps that lace across bare skin?

 

[rras1994]

I'm sorry but no. This is hyperbole.
Compare the heel size, how much of her torso is covered, the difference in design, accessories, etc.
It sounds like those posts comparing this character to a stripper in another thread.

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Really says something when people are trying to argue she doesn't look like a stripper cus of "accessories". She has a weird thong thing, a hella lot of bare skin, and a weird form of stockings and suspenders. If it looks and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

 

[Alkaiser]

That's not a good gatcha'



Yea, the free market argument is fairly obnoxious. It really only serves to shout down posters in this thread.

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This exactly.

 

[Morrigan]

Okay, I missed this (so many reported posts), but:

You know, there's a spanish twitter account created by the right-wing forum forocoches posing as a feminist twitter account and dedicated to post ridiculous and overblown statements with objective of hurting the cause. This thread reminds me to that account sometimes, to the point of making me question the validity of some claims.

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Tthis is a really, really gross thing to say, and incredibly insulting to all the women who have posted sincerely in this thread. I'm warning you officially for this and I hope you realize why.

Let's take Eliie from TloU for example, would it be such a good character if her role were basically a damsel in distress?

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...Do you think people wouldn't have a problem with Ellie if she were sexualized?

There's zero reason we can't criticize both bad writing, and bad visual designs.

 

[Mezentine]

I'm not even saying she "looks like a stripper", that's a phrase I'm trying to stay away from. I'm just very specifically saying that a lot of the designs pull elements from what you could reasonably expect to find in a fetishwear shop. That's not any sort of judgement about that kind of outfit (lets not get into my personal sexual interests), I'm saying that it detracts from these character designs, and many character designs in many games. It communicates something about what the developers think I want to see in contexts that are ill-fitting, immersion breaking, and often crass feeling

 

[Amiibola]

Did you see the designs I posted on the last page? Or many of the others in the game? Many of which feature various combinations of heels, thigh-highs, barely concealed breasts, almost-a-thongs, straps that lace across bare skin?

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I did. And i agree with you in that regard. My issue with you statement is

I'm not even saying she "looks like a stripper", that's a phrase I'm trying to stay away from.

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Well, you basically did. You just used other words.

 

[Eolz]

tbh fetish lady is more tasteful than Pyra because you can't see her actual thong

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Really says something that I find that IRL lady's outfit more tasteful than Pyra's lol. Not to mention she actually looks like an adult too.

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Outside of the adult comparison (which is inherent to the artstyle, most of the characters in this game look too young for their ingame age), seriously? The one with stripper heels, less clothing (leather only) and fetishistic accessories (fishnets+garterbelt, chains, ...), is more tasteful than just your typical anime character where the main issue is...

Pyra is also literally in a 2 inch microskirt and each of her breasts is held in a perfectly contoured top

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... having a thong coming out of hotpants (not a microskirt) and the usual terrible "clothing is glued to the breasts"?
I'm all for criticism, but can we avoid the bad jokes at least? There's plenty wrong with Pyra's outfit without having to invent fake arguments and how a dominatrix stripper outfit (sorry if she's not, not going to reverse google search that) is more tasteful than one covering most of her body outside of the sides of her tummy and the top of her thighs.

 

[Khanimus]

tbh fetish lady is more tasteful than Pyra because you can't see her actual thong

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Through the skirt, no less

 

[Mezentine]

Well, you basically did. You just used other words.

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No, I'm trying not to make a joke about how she looks like a sex worker. I'm trying to make an argument about how, regardless of how I feel about these sorts of outfits in contexts where they are appropriate, they are tonally jarring and actively offputting in my sprawling mass market JRPG about friendship anime boy and his quest to save the world

 

[Amiibola]

Okay, I missed this (so many reported posts), but:

Tthis is a really, really gross thing to say, and incredibly insulting to all the women who have posted sincerely in this thread. I'm warning you officially for this and I hope you realize why.

...Do you think people wouldn't have a problem with Ellie if she were sexualized?

There's zero reason we can't criticize both bad writing, and bad visual designs.

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I'll look it up, and i'm sorry if someone got offended, it really was not my intention.