So I went back and checked for you because this is getting ridiculous.
psychowave did indeed say "excessively", which is absolutely NOT synonymous with "inherently".
Your roommates are mistaken. It happens.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Your roommates are mistaken. It happens.
I think a lot of the trouble with writing in games is that developers don't actually hire competent writers. Its one of those things a lot of people think is easier than it actually is, and so you end up with all this shitty, generic "lore" with no real nuance or subtext to it, wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle.
Also, with regards the checkboxes, there's this modern obsession with "tropes" that just does my head in. It's a very...technical approach to writing, as if stories are a machine you can disassemble and reassemble in a slightly different form.
Stories should come from the heart, the soul. They're not machines.
/rant
I forgot about that one, lol. I meant Fei and Elly.
You prefer to believe your roommates' flawed, context-less interpretation, over what she clarifies herself? I mean, believe what you will but she already clarified what she meant so kindly drop this.
I've always wondered how much of stuff like that was a matter of movements of vocal minorities that just wouldn't have staying power because they didn't truly reflect the attitudes of the time.
I couldnt find something that would directly relate but the closest thing I could find is that American culture's view of pre/non-marital sex has gotten way more positive as time went on
https://journalistsresource.org/stu...ericans-attitudes-sex-reviewing-40-years-data
http://theconversation.com/making-up-our-minds-attitudes-towards-sex-are-changing-42994
granted that might not be directly relevant to how people see sexual media but it does seem to show that people are more okay with sex than in the past
Yeah, it's likely a nurture thing. I grew up without a consistent parental figure and just had to figure things out on my own, and wound up effectively raising my brother and sister -- none of us turned out well, so socialization of all sorts was very difficult to get a move on. I don't actually know how to relate to anyone, really. That socialization, I suspect, is much more nurture than nature. I'm given to understand that's one of the reasons preschool tends to work so well.
Well, these statistics are certainly encouraging. Thanks for this!I've always wondered how much of stuff like that was a matter of movements of vocal minorities that just wouldn't have staying power because they didn't truly reflect the attitudes of the time.
I couldnt find something that would directly relate but the closest thing I could find is that American culture's view of pre/non-marital sex has gotten way more positive as time went on
https://journalistsresource.org/stu...ericans-attitudes-sex-reviewing-40-years-data
http://theconversation.com/making-up-our-minds-attitudes-towards-sex-are-changing-42994
granted that might not be directly relevant to how people see sexual media but it does seem to show that people are more okay with sex than in the past
Also seems to vaguely indicate that same-sex relationships are (even if only slightly) becoming more accepted.
Odd that people simultaneously see extramarital affairs as even less acceptable now though. Like, I still think this indicates that there's something else going on with how people feel regarding sexual relationships. It's certainly not that they are entirely open to them. Unsure how to parse that exactly.
I think its really easy to think that things were better back in the day cause samples are self selected and may not really reflect reality. Because of this I'm immediately skeptical of whatever people mention in trends that don't necessarily match conventional research and wisdom. Its definitely important to look to our past and try to bring the positive attitudes forward so we can also benefit from them but claiming that things are worse now doesn't help things much imo.
Though another line of thought is that Americans are more sexually regressive than other countries in the west/Anglosphere which the study that was in the second article about Australians seems to agree with. They said 87% were okay with pre/non-marital sex vs the 62% in the US
Well, America still lives with a highly puritan belief system, which is taken from the people who basically invaded the country, hundreds of years ago now. So Australia being more open about sex doesn't surprise me (as Australia was formally founded as a penal colony). The difference between literal vs self-inflicted outcasts.
During the great migration I realised that I had very few threads that I could honestly claim to be invested enough in to get an early invite to RestEra... This thread is like an oasis at times and I find myself compelled to read every single page which hasn't really happened before.
If nothing else I think this thread has proven insightful, useful and constructive. And I mean pissing off reddit and getting trolls banned is just a bonus.
EDIT: Also holy shit XC2 is out tomorrow. The whole character design back and forth literally killed my hype.
If nothing else I think this thread has proven insightful, useful and constructive. And I mean pissing off reddit and getting trolls banned is just a bonus.
EDIT: Also holy shit XC2 is out tomorrow. The whole character design back and forth literally killed my hype.
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Yeah I think overall it's my most active thread so far. It can't be overstated how insightful it's been.
And as for Xenoblade 2... I do want to play it, but I debating whether I REALLY want to or "need" to play it at launch considering how meh I'm about it at the time for the same reason.
It's been an absolutely fascinating thread so far, with a lot of really good discussions, especially since things calmed down a little. Even if it's kind of turned into a general meta discussion thread at this point and meanders off the immediate topic periodically, I feel like it's been pretty productive in its discussions (and hope that those lurking agree).
I bought a Switch, took a day off work, am finishing up my housework and adult duties in advance, and am highly considering compromising my sleep schedule to wake up the moment it unlocks so that I can pump a full long weekend into it completely unhindered or distracted by anything except (too little) food and sleep. No level of anime stupid can keep me away from a Takahashi game. His stuff was formative for me. I am a tween playing Xenogears for the first time again this weekend, hotpants and breast physics be damned.
User Warned for explicitly and wilfully disregarding thread's topic to post in said topic to 'ignore' said topic
I just ignore it.
Obvious bait, but... why are you in here, then, starting shit, if you "just ignore it"?
Do you have an end goal?
I'd want to say there was a specific creator whose work always resonated with me, but after spending some time looking at the creators of those early Square games, I have to say that after Chrono Trigger, my appreciation for their work declined sharply. Still, if I had to point someone out, it would probably be, weirdly enough, Masato Kato. His writing in Chrono Trigger and beyond has a really specific charm that I'm still quite fond of.
I didn't start any type of shit, please take your trolling else where.
You came into a thread specifically about women's views on sexualised characters just to say you ignore them. Seems like starting shit to me.
Man, I was so tired that I collapsed since my last message.
Yeah, I already have XC2 pre-loaded onto my switch. I've wanted this game for a long time and though the increased sexualization of the rare blades has grated on me, it currently isn't enough for me to cancel the order. I do understand why it would be enough to cancel one's hype for the product though, especially since the people on this site (let alone others) have done everything to push away anyone who had issue with the designs. I am going to be playing this with a far more critical eye though in comparison to the other Xenoblade Chronicles games though, just to see the dissonance between the storytelling and the costumes.
While this is true, I was more talking about Dissida in its prequel 012, which tries and downplays Jecht's abusiveness and turn him just into a well-meaning father who made some bad choices in if life. I think FFX does do a better job as a whole with Jehct but since Dissidia is supposed to be these characters canonocally ripped from a certain moment in time, I thought it wasn't great for them to skip over some of that stuff and just have him focus on him being a badass.
I honestly cannot remember the direct comparison to a main character, but I do know that during this period (starting in the late SNES era) that Square Enix was starting to do this trend of breaking habits of the JRPG stereotype. The last couple of SNES games by Square are pretty good examples of this Otred from Live-a-Live is similar to Cloud in that he also suffers an event that you don't discover until later in the series that rips apart the idea of him being a player's avatar. See also FF Tactics, another PS1 game that tries to subvert the standard hero archtypes by throwing them into a crapsack world.
Another amusing thing to note was how far they were originally going to go with the parody of Cloud as an avatar of the player. In the original, Serpheroth is secretly controlling Cloud from the moment you start the game and in this version, Cloud is in fact a separate body of Sepheroth after an event so he could manipulate events directly without actually being there or revealing his hand. He was supposed to be even more of a stereotypical avatar and would have used the moments where you make choices as proof that he had no control over his body. This was before the idea of Jenova or Zach really came into focus so the big dream sequence in Disc 2 or 3 (I honestly can't remember) was also about him becoming his own person, but also a point where you stop controlling his dialogue and he starting to become his own character. Due to a lot of changes, this was scrapped but a lot of it kind of remains in the final product.
Yeah, I already have XC2 pre-loaded onto my switch. I've wanted this game for a long time and though the increased sexualization of the rare blades has grated on me, it currently isn't enough for me to cancel the order. I do understand why it would be enough to cancel one's hype for the product though, especially since the people on this site (let alone others) have done everything to push away anyone who had issue with the designs. I am going to be playing this with a far more critical eye though in comparison to the other Xenoblade Chronicles games though, just to see the dissonance between the storytelling and the costumes.
While this is true, I was more talking about Dissida in its prequel 012, which tries and downplays Jecht's abusiveness and turn him just into a well-meaning father who made some bad choices in if life. I think FFX does do a better job as a whole with Jehct but since Dissidia is supposed to be these characters canonocally ripped from a certain moment in time, I thought it wasn't great for them to skip over some of that stuff and just have him focus on him being a badass.
I honestly cannot remember the direct comparison to a main character, but I do know that during this period (starting in the late SNES era) that Square Enix was starting to do this trend of breaking habits of the JRPG stereotype. The last couple of SNES games by Square are pretty good examples of this Otred from Live-a-Live is similar to Cloud in that he also suffers an event that you don't discover until later in the series that rips apart the idea of him being a player's avatar. See also FF Tactics, another PS1 game that tries to subvert the standard hero archtypes by throwing them into a crapsack world.
Another amusing thing to note was how far they were originally going to go with the parody of Cloud as an avatar of the player. In the original, Serpheroth is secretly controlling Cloud from the moment you start the game and in this version, Cloud is in fact a separate body of Sepheroth after an event so he could manipulate events directly without actually being there or revealing his hand. He was supposed to be even more of a stereotypical avatar and would have used the moments where you make choices as proof that he had no control over his body. This was before the idea of Jenova or Zach really came into focus so the big dream sequence in Disc 2 or 3 (I honestly can't remember) was also about him becoming his own person, but also a point where you stop controlling his dialogue and he starting to become his own character. Due to a lot of changes, this was scrapped but a lot of it kind of remains in the final product.
I just realized we all missed a great opportunity with a "I don't know how much you know about breasts (I'm an expert)" joke a couple of days ago :/
shut up it's still a great meme
I haven't finished 2 yet, but I'd say so. They all play about the same. I enjoyed 1 just as much as Beyond.
Sometimes memes are dead and need to be revived. This is one of those times.
Ah, gotcha. I've only seen parts of those games, so I thought they were supposed to take place after their respective games or something like that. I feel like most spinoff games have serious issues with flanderizing characters, so I guess I'm not surprised :/
I still dont know if I was right in thinking a woman's breasts would jiggle if she got hit hard from the side. One lady agreed that's what happens but one persons isn't a consensus.
Anyway I apologize to you for my disrespect in how I talked to you though all that, which was wrong.
As for making what I said into a meme, go ahead. Even my friends started a different channel on discord for all the dumb shit I say. I say dumb shit all the time, I am basically a walking meme at this point. lol.
If I'm not wearing bra, yes, they move if I lightly hit them on the side. But the problem is that she was wearing tight clothes (which should restrict some movement on its own) and the way they moved was not natural.
Ah cool, thanks! If they're on par with Beyond I'm definitely hyped to check them out.
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Yeah, the Dissidia try to both expand on the story elements in their respective games but a lot of characters fall flat. The only really good character arcs are the FF1 characters and the FFIV characters.
Also, who here's depressingly not surprised that the thread Llyrwenne had to be locked due to the utter rush of people barging in just to express how much they do not care. At this point, I do not know how we are every going to get any conversation rolling. It seems like everytime someone makes an OP about the subject, a deluge of trolls need to ruin it so discussion never starts. We are always stuck on stage one. I don't know if, or even how, we're ever going to move on and actually discuss the issues when we have to stop just to fight for the belief that these issues exist.
I'm sorry this had to happen again. I can't even imagine how some of you may feel. I still want to hold on onto the (sadly very few but still) people that said that this thread helped them a lot with their views. I don't want to think everything is useless, even if it may feel like it.
I'm not sure why people feel the need to make drive by posts.
You would think if you used this forum, you'd be prepared to see threads like that and be able to handle not posting in them if they bother you that much.
Some people disagree and want to have a (kind of) reasonable conversation, but there are others literally trying to silence peoples voices.
You would think if you used this forum, you'd be prepared to see threads like that and be able to handle not posting in them if they bother you that much.
Some people disagree and want to have a (kind of) reasonable conversation, but there are others literally trying to silence peoples voices.
This is what I don't get. Like do these people not know the inciting incident that helped create this forum?
I think the only way any of us have found to make progress is to just beat our heads against the brick wall to move it that millimeter forward and tag out for someone else when the headaches kick in or the blood gets in our eyes. There's no real winning. If you hang out exclusively where more nuanced discussion happens you're just giving dudes more reason to claim that no women play games anyway, but why the hell should anyone want to keep abusing their poor skull, either?
It's interesting that this community is maligned for being so allegedly oppressive and militant in its 'agenda' when it's so overwhelmingly clear that the only difference is that discussions take ten pages to fully toxify instead of three posts. And mind you that's not a knock against the mods, my god the opposite if anything. It's a hell of a fight being fought there.
One always hears that if you've lived a life of privilege equality feels like oppression, but we're not even talking about equality here--we're talking about basic recognition that some people might feel a way about a thing, and even that's dismissed. I recognize that people don't want their OTs and hype-cycle threads to have their buzz dulled by our dour asses, but we can't even get a reasonable thread dedicated to the damn topic to survive without having to be temporarily locked to dish out moderation.
If the prevailing opinion is that games are to be assessed only as children's toys are assessed by children themselves, and not as literature, film or art are, then what does that say about the greater community?
I'm not going to answer that myself, but I'd love it if more people would take a minute to think about it.
EDIT: Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to make a reductive borderline shitpost about the different types of -dere archetypes in the Anime Thread because god dammit you can do that and also still want to have serious conversations sometimes in appropriate settings, people. I like to have fun too. I'm not a sexless buzzkill who wants to remove all fun from your video games. :|
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I only noticed that discussion thread get bumped up for the lock but I wanna say in addition to having a wonderfully, but sadly ignore, OP these threads have been a good way to to see who's opinions are worth ignoring when it comes to more serious topics around here.
Yeah true that. It's definitely been revelatory to see people's true colors. I have never put anyone in my ignore list but it's useful to know who's worth my time and who isn't.
They're not making a ruling just cleaning the shit. It will be up later.
Wouldn't be too surprised if a bunch of us are already on multiple ignore lists because of this thread XD
How I feel right now. The whole context of this.
Seriously, though, I do think it's a great analogy: this isn't something we're going to change overnight. It likely isn't going to change in our lifetimes, either. What we can do, however, is chip away at that proverbial wall, and encourage those who follow us to do the same, so that one day, no matter how long it may take, that wall comes tumbling down.
How I feel right now. The whole context of this.
I had this idea where trying to discuss things like this and change people's minds is like trying to chisel away an iceberg with a toothpick. I would have laughed when I saw this if it weren't so true and depressing.
I just want to repeat what I said earlier in the thread. Threads like this one (and Llyrwenne's that's temp locked) have helped to change my way of thinking. It would be nice to see more men post in here and give some encouragement. I know there has to be lots of people from the community (old place and new) who have had the same experience I have had. I know it can feel like that Doctor Who episode from BorkBork's gif, but these discussions help.
I missed that thread, will check it out now.
Some people have just already made up their minds, entirely shutting off any discussion on the topic. To the point that they seem to take pride in it? It's pretty gross and not at all the vibe I get from this site's administration which is a weird kinda juxtaposition.
Not implying the mods are responsible or that they should be doing more, they're doing any amazing job, it's just strange that these people can't read the room I guess?
Some people have just already made up their minds, entirely shutting off any discussion on the topic. To the point that they seem to take pride in it? It's pretty gross and not at all the vibe I get from this site's administration which is a weird kinda juxtaposition.
Not implying the mods are responsible or that they should be doing more, they're doing any amazing job, it's just strange that these people can't read the room I guess?
I kept going back and forth about posting in this thread for a while now, but always thought that my wall of text will probably get ignored and overlooked by trolls anyways. I realized though that there are many people that keep coming back here and really read all the posts, so I guess I will post my little story after all.
A little bit of an introduction, I am a 21-year old male from Germany now and have been saying I want to one day make games since I was in Kindergarten. I thought my chances of breaking into the industry were highest if I went to a uni in Japan, applied for it and was all set to go live halfway across the globe. As part of my preparation I participated in a "language exchange", and luckily directly fell in love with one of my study partners in Japan.
And now to get more ontopic:
When I was in highschool I would also drool over sexualized character designs, like so many other boys my age, it was completely normal to me. It didn't help that my mom was always in a very high position in her work, so I never felt that women would be at a disadvantage in any way, I mean my mom made a huge career with a not so great school degree. My now fiancée and living a while in Japan with her has completely opened my eyes, though. I have heard crazy horror stories from her, was with her when she herself got sexually harassed at work and simply saw the effects of obectification of women on a woman's psyche. It made me open my eyes and realize that there are just so so many small things which all come together to create this large picture of sexualization and objectification, from things like "Chikan" which happens way too frequently in Japan to things like my SO being told on her first day at her new office that she should "keep her distance from the vice president as he is known to like women a bit too much", yet no one spoke up. I thought they didn't speak up because they were weak when I was young, but in that moment I realized that they didn't speak up out of so many reasons, for my SO it was fear for example. You have this person in a position of power forcing himself onto women with the chance that when they do speak up he would simply fire them. This might sound "anti-japan" now, but the fact is that that last example actually happened when she had to move to the US for her job and that was how she was greeted at the new office halfway across the globe from home.
Anyways, I'm getting offtopic and I guess I just wanted to share that, but seeing my fiancée suffer so badly due to this subconscious behavior men often have towards women was bad, like really really bad. It made me hate teenage me especially looking at those trashy games I bought and played when I was younger. And even though she was not a big gamer when I met her, my passion for games made her fall in love with them, too. And in my honest opinion it can't be that she sees a female character design in a big game and in her words feels "uncomfortable" seeing it. My personal biggest issue with these designs is that they are an incredibly easy to see symptom of this big issue that our society has, and yet so many people ignore it, or they even say "I love boobs in my games", not seeing that this might not be the root of the way many men treat women, but a symptom, one we can actually fix and get rid of if we were vocal enough. I am incredibly grateful for the many things she made me learn and understand in these past 3.5 years, and I truly hope that at one point more people realize just how deep this issue is, and to be able to one day fix the root of this we have to start with something, and rejecting designs like this would be a great first step to also increase inclusion in our hobby. Being able to share my hobby with my SO is one of the greatest pleasures in life, and I really hope that at one point no character design will make her uncomfortable anymore.
Anyways, that's my story. Anyone that made it through the end, thank you for reading, and let's all work together to make that hope come true.
A little bit of an introduction, I am a 21-year old male from Germany now and have been saying I want to one day make games since I was in Kindergarten. I thought my chances of breaking into the industry were highest if I went to a uni in Japan, applied for it and was all set to go live halfway across the globe. As part of my preparation I participated in a "language exchange", and luckily directly fell in love with one of my study partners in Japan.
And now to get more ontopic:
When I was in highschool I would also drool over sexualized character designs, like so many other boys my age, it was completely normal to me. It didn't help that my mom was always in a very high position in her work, so I never felt that women would be at a disadvantage in any way, I mean my mom made a huge career with a not so great school degree. My now fiancée and living a while in Japan with her has completely opened my eyes, though. I have heard crazy horror stories from her, was with her when she herself got sexually harassed at work and simply saw the effects of obectification of women on a woman's psyche. It made me open my eyes and realize that there are just so so many small things which all come together to create this large picture of sexualization and objectification, from things like "Chikan" which happens way too frequently in Japan to things like my SO being told on her first day at her new office that she should "keep her distance from the vice president as he is known to like women a bit too much", yet no one spoke up. I thought they didn't speak up because they were weak when I was young, but in that moment I realized that they didn't speak up out of so many reasons, for my SO it was fear for example. You have this person in a position of power forcing himself onto women with the chance that when they do speak up he would simply fire them. This might sound "anti-japan" now, but the fact is that that last example actually happened when she had to move to the US for her job and that was how she was greeted at the new office halfway across the globe from home.
Anyways, I'm getting offtopic and I guess I just wanted to share that, but seeing my fiancée suffer so badly due to this subconscious behavior men often have towards women was bad, like really really bad. It made me hate teenage me especially looking at those trashy games I bought and played when I was younger. And even though she was not a big gamer when I met her, my passion for games made her fall in love with them, too. And in my honest opinion it can't be that she sees a female character design in a big game and in her words feels "uncomfortable" seeing it. My personal biggest issue with these designs is that they are an incredibly easy to see symptom of this big issue that our society has, and yet so many people ignore it, or they even say "I love boobs in my games", not seeing that this might not be the root of the way many men treat women, but a symptom, one we can actually fix and get rid of if we were vocal enough. I am incredibly grateful for the many things she made me learn and understand in these past 3.5 years, and I truly hope that at one point more people realize just how deep this issue is, and to be able to one day fix the root of this we have to start with something, and rejecting designs like this would be a great first step to also increase inclusion in our hobby. Being able to share my hobby with my SO is one of the greatest pleasures in life, and I really hope that at one point no character design will make her uncomfortable anymore.
Anyways, that's my story. Anyone that made it through the end, thank you for reading, and let's all work together to make that hope come true.
How I feel right now. The whole context of this.
Yeah, I don't think you could make a better analogy than this.
"You can do it! Fight! Fight!"
Sorry, my sister and I started watching Cheer Boys the other night, so it's the first thing I thought of.
But I wanted to say I check out this thread practically everyday. It's great to see these kind of discussions and learning viewpoints I hadn't considered before (it's not like I had a bad sexist view before though, far from it). I offer my two cents here and there, but I try to avoid "me too" posts in general , and feel a lot of the other posters can communicate what I'm feeling much more eloquently than me.
As I've said before, there's this whole "locker room" culture when it comes to guys admiring women, that I never really got on board with, and feels so alien to me at times. Sleazy co-workers going "Hey look at that girl's ass!" "Look at those BOOBS!" Just never feels right to me. Sure, I've had those "Wow she's gorgeous!" thoughts every so often, but it feels better to keep it to myself. I think with games it's very similar. When you have certain designs or lewd camera angles, it's like the game becomes that sleazy coworker/friend who has to point out how nice a girl's body is. Can't I just admire her in my own way? I don't need you to "remind" me Mr Video Game, what I need to be attracted to. Kthx. And I feel like that's where a lot of guys like me can relate.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Thank you for your entire post but I wanted to highlight this part because that's usually how the dismissals happen, with fallacious comparisons to Jack Thompson ("anime boobies don't make men sexist!" etc.) and the likes. It's not like Jack Thompson said, no. But it doesn't mean media has no influence on culture and vice-versa.
Thanks for sharing your story, I found it an interesting read. And yeah, we tend to be pretty ignorant of the issues some women endure especially when we were young (cant say I was precisely perfect too when I was younger), that's why it's so important to hear and see their issues.
This continues to still be a pervasive problem. It's also part of the reason why the "it's just games, stop being so serious!" line of bullshit persists. Games will never be taken seriously if the people who participate in them can't see them seriously. But even more than that, if what is created and sold to mass audiences can't even make it past the, frankly, low bar of simply being somewhere above juvenile, no audiences outside of people who love and play games will analyze them either. And without that community, a community interested in games for their merits beyond being "just games", games will continue to remain a media that might best be described as infantile.
Video games need vocabulary that they simply do not have yet, and right now most of what it uses is stolen from film, because it has not yet developed a language that allows more creators to break out of filmic confines. A large part of that is because the people who might otherwise see video games as a burgeoning medium instead see it as either unapproachable or not worth the investment required to scrape past all of the sludge video games currently carry with them. Thus, we do not get a better, more developed way of talking about games, or if we do the terms themselves are generic and not unique to games (flow is one of the most often thrown around).
Ludonarrative dissonance is a usable, recognizable term, but also not nearly as penetrable as something like auteur theory, and much more difficult to integrate, whereas the concept of the auteur drew people to it. In spite of the increased use of ludonarrative dissonance, games have not become more aware of the disconnect between the narrative promoted by the play and the narrative promoted outside of it. The narrative outside of play remains filmic in nature, while the narrative of play remains completely separate. And it's difficult to get these sorts of things to change if we still aren't at the level where a larger community of individuals are willing to take and discuss video games and play as being artistic. To do that, we need to be willing to a) be conscious of the sludge in games and b) willing to accept responsibility for how that promotes the media to the larger world.
But maybe that is the issue. Maybe the people who come in and shout about it really do just want them to be toys, enjoying them as eternal 15 year-olds. Even so, it's already clear that many want video games to be something else, something more; and once people see those possibilities and start moving towards them... well, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. People simply have to learn that it's not just a medium for them anymore. All that anger and vitriol is simply fear of not being catered to, but no media, if it wants to continue to be relevant, can survive like that. It's a self-destructive tendency, where the fan squeezes the work they love into irrelevancy because they refuse to see its flaws or have an open discussion about it.
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Eyup. I still watch anime and I'm even playing FGO (despite the game's female cast having something like a 40-60 ratio of awesome and 'wtf is this shit' designs), it's not like I'm totally isolating myself from the things I consider problematic. The thing is that I wish that the devs could do better - I genuinely think that they aim pretty low a lot of the time and there's no reason to hold them to such low standards, but that doesn't mean I can't loosen up and have fun in other contexts.
I grew up mired in 4chan's culture (which has actually changed measurably over time) and it's not like it's left me entirely - I just don't put up with so much of the bullshit anymore. I can only hope for the same for so many of the people still afflicted with that senseless myopia.
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