• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oct 27, 2017
3,731
Speaking of Cunt

RecentMerryArgali-max-1mb.gif


Hey old guys!

Was cunt seen as such a bad insult in the 70's and 80's. I could swear the first time I heard it was "the worst thing you can call a women," was in a year that both Curb Your Enthusiasm and 30 Rock did episodes surrounding the word. I kind of feel that at some point in the mid 2000's everyone suddenly agreed to make it the n-word for womens.

Pretty much unmentionable. If you said it or heard it you'd be shocked or cause shock. Brits love it though.

Irish here.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
Not really because calling someone straight a faggot still suggests there is something negative about being gay, in order for it to be an insult.

Calling a man a bitch is saying he's acting like a bitch, not acting like a female and generally isn't taken that way.

Calling a man a bitch is literally saying he's acting like a woman. As an insult. So yeah, it's fucking sexist.

Really?? Maybe it's a place thing then. here in the UK there would be no difference. If anything asshole would be more offensive.

Lmao I'm a British woman, and yes, bitch is more offensive than arsehole.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I'm not entirely sure about how it works.

I was banned from a forum when I was younger because I started an argument with a black guy who insisted that he had full right to refer to white women as "white bitches" and a mod came in and banned me for "not understanding culture".

It's one of those things I'd rather not touch if possible, but if I were forced to choose between the hip hop artist's right to say the word and a woman's right to feel offended, I'll go with the second.
 

Moosichu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
898
It's something that I have been trying to remove from my lexicon - it can just be hard because so many (men and women) around me use it so casually. It's a problem with a society though, not just this particular genre of music.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,453
Yeah this is the same argument for calling people a faggot. People use faggot as meaning idiot, stupid etc. You can't use that argument for bitch and not for faggot. Calling a man a bitch is implying a negative female trait.

Maybe I'm wrong then and I'll fully own it if so, I'm not into offending anybody. But i genuinely very rarely see it used in regards to feminine traits these days, even in hip hop.

I've been called a bitch playfully by women before and never took it to mean I'm acting feminine, just that I'm being a dickhead. If they called me a faggot I actually would take that to mean I'm "acting gay" not that that's a thing.
 

Real Hero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,329
I'm not entirely sure about how it works.

I was banned from a forum when I was younger because I started an argument with a black guy who insisted that he had full right to refer to white women as "white bitches" and a mod came in and banned me for "not understanding culture".

It's one of those things I'd rather not touch if possible, but if I were forced to choose between the hip hop artist's right to say the word and a woman's right to feel offended, I'll go with the second.
that mod is fucked for suggesting calling women bitches is an important part of black culture
 

Ryuhza

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,426
San Diego County
I find I use "dick" more often with directed insults. Wonder what that says about me. :|

Also clown and doofus or doof.

Not that I'm a puritan. Most are punctuated with 'fucking' or 'motherfucking' or 'goddamned'. Sometimes just 'motherfucker' or 'son of a bitch.' Not bitch by itself so much.
 

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,345
I'm not entirely sure about how it works.

I was banned from a forum when I was younger because I started an argument with a black guy who insisted that he had full right to refer to white women as "white bitches" and a mod came in and banned me for "not understanding culture".

It's one of those things I'd rather not touch if possible, but if I were forced to choose between the hip hop artist's right to say the word and a woman's right to feel offended, I'll go with the second.

Yeah i dont believe you lol.
Being banned on a forum as a kid for something that is obv. wrong and offensive means you can never engage in any discussion about it ? You dont have black people or friends in your life you could ask about this ?

If you really continued your whole life based on a forum discussion, that using "white bitches" is essential to being black i feel sorry for you lol.
 

Moosichu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
898
Maybe I'm wrong then and I'll fully own it if so, I'm not into offending anybody. But i genuinely very rarely see it used in regards to feminine traits these days, even in hip hop.

I've been called a bitch playfully by women before and never took it to mean I'm acting feminine, just that I'm being a dickhead. If they called me a faggot I actually would take that to mean I'm "acting gay" not that that's a thing.

I noticed what you wrote earlier. From the UK as well, and bitch definitely is a gendered word here. The word which doesn't over here (but does in the US) is cunt.

The difference for me between words like asshole, dickhead, nob, etc.. and bitch, whore, pussy, slut, girl, etc. is that the former are use because of their vulgarity, whereas the latter are much more gendered (depending on context for some of them). The latter are specifically used as insults towards men and women to indicate that they have perceived undesirable feminine traits, where interestingly few if any such words exist to indicate perceived undesirable masculine traits. It's pervasive as well. The amount of times I've heard parents tell their children "don't be such a girl" and the like is disgusting.

Like most things involving humans interacting with humans, it is a very complex topic, and if "bitch" became taboo it of course wouldn't remove sexism overnight, (in the same way other slurs becoming taboo didn't remove racism, or homophobia). However, making the personal choice to stop using it, may be something worth striving for, even if it is a small thing.
 

Squiggely

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,142
I remember when I was in school in the early years, there was a rhyme girls would use.

A bitch is a dog
And dog is nature
Nature is beautiful
So thank you for the compliment

It was just the girls being girls, they owned that school and were very cute. Amazing I remember it.
 

Moosichu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
898
Strong argument there but no it isn't. Cunt is infinitely more offensive and female aimed than bitch and it's one of the most common insults here. Insulting each other is virtually the national pasttime and bitch is on the bottom of the scale.

Bitch is much worse than cunt over here. (Although again, it depends very much on where in the UK you live, your social groups, your community etc.) Cunt is a rude word, but it's not particularly gendered. Just like how calling someone a dick, a wank-stain or an arsehole isn't gendered either.

Bitch is definitely less severe as curse-word (it's more likely to be said on TV), but it is very much more of a slur (in my opinion).

But you can't call a woman a bastard, dick, or asshole. It just doesn't work.

Dudes recieve ALL the insults.

Yes you can. Lol.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,453
I noticed what you wrote earlier. From the UK as well, and bitch definitely is a gendered word here. The word which doesn't over here (but does in the US) is cunt.

The difference for me between words like asshole, dickhead, nob, etc.. and bitch, whore, pussy, slut, girl, etc. is that the former are use because of their vulgarity, whereas the latter are much more gendered (depending on context for some of them). The latter are specifically used as insults towards men and women to indicate that they have perceived undesirable feminine traits, where interestingly few if any such words exist to indicate perceived undesirable masculine traits. It's pervasive as well. The amount of times I've heard parents tell their children "don't be such a girl" and the like is disgusting.

Like most things involving humans interacting with humans, it is a very complex topic, and if "bitch" became taboo it of course wouldn't remove sexism overnight, (in the same way other slurs becoming taboo didn't remove racism, or homophobia). However, making the personal choice to stop using it, may be something worth striving for, even if it is a small thing.

Thanks for being the most thoughtful reply I've had haha. Everything you've said does make sense too. You're absolutely right about the difference between those two groups of words and I do get the distinction. I still believe bitch is the least offensive of that second group though simply because it's SO pervasive and has been used by all genders to insult all genders for decades. You're right "don't be such a girl" for a parent to say to their kids is absolutely awful. In regards to stopping using the word 'bitch', I haven't said that word out loud in over a decade. I would never use a word that could offend somebody, unless I'm being playful, and I'm just thinking out loud here discussing the use of the word. But that's just me, I rarely even call someone a dick. I still believe hip hop shouldn't be censored though and if a rapper wants to say it that's nobody else's business, outside of saying "That's offensive".

Bitch is much worse than cunt over here. (Although again, it depends very much on where in the UK you live, your social groups, your community etc.) Cunt is a rude word, but it's not particularly gendered. Just like how calling someone a dick, a wank-stain or an arsehole isn't gendered either.

Bitch is definitely less severe as curse-word (it's more likely to be said on TV), but it is very much more of a slur (in my opinion).

I guess what you said about the community and social groups and area is the real answer. I thought that earlier but didn't wanna say it because people would be like "ok it's offensive everywhere else but you can say it, sure" lmao. But in my real life experience of human interactions that has been the case. I've heard women call and be called the word bitch fuck knows how many thousands of times throughout school and university and the worldplace etc and genuinely never heard of anyone being offended by it in real life. That doesn't mean I'm saying I say it or that it's ok, just sharing experiences. I appreciate your distinction between the insult and slur and that's not something I've heard before but it does make sense.

What's your opinion on words that are a gendered slur but an even milder insult, like a kid calling their teacher a "hag" or something along those lines?


I think they were being sarcastic with this, or at least I hope so haha. Thinking you can't call a woman a dick is the exact form of mental sexism that has made this an issue.
 
Last edited:

Squiggely

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,142
The context that rap music uses it is derogatory to women in my opinion.

But meh, it's fine otherwise in the correct context.
 

Awesome Kev

Banned
Jan 10, 2018
1,670
I lived with a guy who's little brother referred to his girlfriend (his older brothers GF, not his own) as his bitch. Example, "What's up with your bitch?" or "Is your bitch coming with us tonight?" etc.

When used that way how is not a gender insult? There's no other way you can say that? I think these are the hip hop songs the OP is referring to, the ones where they're calling women their bitch or their bitches for no other reason than to be insulting and feel whatever sort of weird male dominance they need to make themselves feel good or look cool.

I understand using it to refer to someone who is being a bitch, man or woman. But I feel like a lot of people are getting away with this insult by disguising it as that instead of owning what they really mean by it.

EDIT: To clarify, the older brother's GF was not a bitch at all, she was really nice and cool
 

Birdo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
826
Rap has done lots of harm to our culture. Glamorised gang violence, turned women into commodities, normalise homophobia, promote a selfish consumer lifestyle to sell you Kanye West trainers or whatever. It is truly the vilest form of music and it is the musical equivalent of voting for Donald Trump
As a minority and rap listener, I kind of agree.

It's always been ironic to me how those on the left are so against misogyny, homophobia, and violence yet they're willing to turn a blind eye to hip hop culture. Name your top 5 favorite rappers and I guarantee at least one of them has said or done something that would cause anyone else to be reviled and yet, somehow they get a pass.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I'm not entirely sure about how it works.

I was banned from a forum when I was younger because I started an argument with a black guy who insisted that he had full right to refer to white women as "white bitches" and a mod came in and banned me for "not understanding culture".

It's one of those things I'd rather not touch if possible, but if I were forced to choose between the hip hop artist's right to say the word and a woman's right to feel offended, I'll go with the second.

Forums are private entities, you could be banned for saying the new God of War is shit and well, that's that. What are you going to do? Using a forum is like going through a jungle smeared with honey. It's human beings using tools in order to warn or kick off other human beings from a private platform because the human beings who have the control and power don't like/don't want said warned/banned person around. A big private party you can be thrown out of for any reason those in charge want. It just so happens if you poorly moderate a forum, you'll kill a forum and a dead forum = no one using it/no ad revenue.

Any use of "but this happened to me on a forum due to X" is pretty irrelevant. Forums have no real weight in determining how societies as a whole, function. 30,000 people use Resetera, globally/internationally, there are more than 30,000 people within a "few" miles in any big City in the UK.

It's why sometimes you see a topic on here, then you actually look at how millions are functioning in a society and you go, yeah, that's why whatever you've asked in this topic isn't how it's going "in the real world". Not being derogatory here, but everyone has to remember "internet culture" or "forum life", is what it is. A very specialized form of communicating with people on an internet-based platform which is pretty corded off from the real world and socializing how most of us do it the majority of the time.

Forums are fun, and diverse, but no, they're not always great representations of how an average society can actually function. They are often collections of like-minded people, aka people who actively seek out forums as a means of socializing, where vast numbers of the average population have nothing to do with forums, don't care about them and just want to live life, work, study and have fun. Music is often about dancing and having fun.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,453
As a minority and rap listener, I kind of agree.

It's always been ironic to me how those on the left are so against misogyny, homophobia, and violence yet they're willing to turn a blind eye to hip hop culture. Name your top 5 favorite rappers and I guarantee at least one of them has done or said something that would cause anyone else to be reviled but somehow they get a pass.

Because the only ways to not "turn a blind eye" are 1. Censorship which is much worse and doesn't work or 2. telling them what they're saying is offensive and that they shouldn't, which we do do. Some of them do learn and change, some don't give a fuck, which thanks to free speech is their right and none of our business.

At the end of the day hip hop is just one way we communicate with each other as a species and there are countless others, unless you wanna control and censor all of them there's no benefit to doing it to hip hop. Hip hop may be one of the most problematic but that's because it's people from some of the most oppressed areas of society talking about the reality they see. It's raw and real and if you want racism and sexism to stop being a part of it then stop the symptoms not the people talking about it. The only way I can think to solve it is hate speech laws but they will still allow the words in other contexts, and the US is aggressively against them anyway.
 
Last edited:

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,875
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
Then there is the fact most human beings, if we're generalising, just don't care. Not being dismissive just stating how it is. People have lives to live, work to go to, fun to have and ultimately music tends to fall into the fun category. Lots of younger listeners will like cursing, swearing and referring to each other as bad bitches, due to banter, and no one gets upset or offended. The intent is having fun, not literally trying to kill your friends and strangers. (no smart asses, the above in a social society doesn't apply to covering every word before some say to me does that mean I can say the N word for "fun" - different words have different histories and meaning, pay attention to this whole post).
Is that not a little bit of a cop-out though? Most people will agree it's a bad reason to start dropping N-bombs over, yet the dark history of women is easily glossed over? The violence and oppression towards women is as old as recorded history, manifested throughout virtually every culture, and still persists to this day in varying degrees in virtually every culture. It's uncomfortable to think about, but being thrust into slavery is still a very real threat for women even today. "Bitch" specifically was used to dehumanise and establish the subservient roles, and yet here we are talking about its fun-factor. I wonder if we had an n-word equivalent exclusively for black women, people would have little qualms using that one too.

It's something that I have been trying to remove from my lexicon - it can just be hard because so many (men and women) around me use it so casually. It's a problem with a society though, not just this particular genre of music.
It's indeed really difficult when your environment casually uses it. I went through this with the word "gay". Everyone in my environment used it as a synonym for "lame". Since we weren't native English speakers, people thought even less of the implications of the words we were using.
 

36 Chambers

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,345
Hip hop was about shedding light on communities and lives that didnt get represented otherwise. It wasn't about glorifying these things it was about being truthful to your environment. You can really tell who did and didn't grow up in lower class areas by these threads.
 

Birdo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
826
Because the only ways to not "turn a blind eye" are 1. Censorship which is much worse and doesn't work or 2. telling them what they're saying is offensive and that they shouldn't, which we do do. Some of them do learn and change, some don't give a fuck, which thanks to free speech is their right and none of our business.

At the end of the day hip hop is just one way we communicate with each other as a species and there are countless others, unless you wanna control and censor all of them there's no benefit to doing it to hip hop. The only way I can think to solve it is hate speech laws but they will still allow the words in other contexts.
Don't you think it's a little ironic how people on the left like to champion hip hop culture when it goes against nearly everything they supposedly stand for though? As for me (an Independent), I could care less but I find it humorous.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,453
Don't you think it's a little ironic how people on the left like to champion hip hop culture when it goes against nearly everything they supposedly stand for though? As for me, I could care less but I just find it funny as an Independent.

I don't think it personally does but I can understand why you think that. I've listened to hip hop all my life and grown up left wing partly due to it's influence, so I have no choice in the matter haha.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Is that not a little bit of a cop-out though? Most people will agree it's a bad reason to start dropping N-bombs over, yet the dark history of women is easily glossed over? The violence and oppression towards women is as old as recorded history, manifested throughout virtually every culture, and still persists to this day in varying degrees in virtually every culture. It's uncomfortable to think about, but being thrust into slavery is still a very real threat for women even today. "Bitch" specifically was used to dehumanise and establish the subservient roles, and yet here we are talking about its fun-factor. I wonder if we had an n-word equivalent exclusively for black women, people would have little qualms using that one too.

Nope, because the N word deserves no part of this topic and I already covered it earlier. There is no "N-word" for women. The N word is what it is and it has been used on the forefront of actual death, violence and systematic control/power/slavery on a global and institutionalised scale/death machine. Constant "comparisons" or "but what about the N word" in this topic are either ignorance or bordering on trolling.

Generic insults no matter what they are do not chart compared to the N word and its history, and most generic insults and swear words now have long histories of being socialized into everyone and anyone using them. Women calling men the words, men calling women the world, people calling their animals the words (my cat is a cunt because it breaks shit). Precisely because even if they are gendered words, they've never had any legit movements in the past of the deaths of thousands if not millions led by carefully targetted language such as that of certain racial insults.

I know forums are also often places of complete social awkwardnesssuch as "ex-employee didn't wave at me in a gas station and now I am so angry what do I do?" or "How do I clean my ass?", but at times the level of lack of critical thinking around reality borders on insanity. Most decent well rounded human beings know you don't call strangers cunts and bitches, nor do you run around naked in public with CUNT written across your forehead. Singing songs and having a bit of a laugh at some rude words is not the same as literally being a sociopath or psychopath. One thing that sends me off to the pits of hell on forums is hyperbole and black/white or what I want to start calling extremist thinking. You like a song with the word bitch, you hate women and must treat people poorly and you are empathizing with/normalizing serial killers. No. Stop it. Stop being soo dramatic and unreasonable anyone who makes completely ridiculous jumps like this from the get-go.

Remember how to have fun in life, you only have one life. Teach and educate people to respect others and know social boundaries, don't try and turn everyone into the most boring and personality-missing scrooges possible just to say "we done it, we reached peak no fun allowed on planet earth".

This topic honestly reads like "I don't like hip-hop, so I will be dramatic and infer hip-hop causes far more suffering and calamity in the word than it really does and set up a scenario where anyone disagreeing must be a misogynist". Some genres of music might use more coarse language than others, and it may be subjectively "immature", but it's music, it's supposed to be fun. Judge people on their actions and what they do, not always obsessing over humanity having some fun and being crass from time to time. I don't really know of much serious death or calamity because of hip-hop, it's the moral panic that keeps giving blaming rap for everything. If we just clean up rap music we'll fix society. Yeah, good luck with that.
 
Last edited:

Wolven Hammer

Member
Feb 26, 2018
1,548
Los Angeles, California
Nah, I was serious. I live in the U.S for reference.

I understand that people here for the most part have different social expectations than the norm. But try calling (don't actually do this, lol) a rude woman a "dick". It will sound wrong.

Maybe in other parts of the world it's different. Either way I'm not advocating the insulting of women by calling them bitches just because they're women. Night.
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,327
I don't think this is going to be a fairly popular opinion, but I stand by it. Lots of hip hop is rammed full of language and ideas that many on this forum would label as "problematic" if it was said in general speech. But IMO the double edged sword is that because the language comes from an oppressed minority it's given a pass, as if class and social status are an excuse for talking and expressing ideas like a cunt. I don't think it is, so I choose not to listen to rappers who speak like that. I don't think it's cool, it doesn't make me feel good to listen to it. There are plenty of erudite, clever rappers in the world to not have to listen to people who use gross words and ideas as a main part of their output.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,198
I guess this is part of the thread where someone says all hip hop isn't what you hear in top 40 radio or in the club dancing.

I say that after reading a post talking about hip hop being against everything on the left not too long after spending a bulk of yesterday listening to Digable Planets, a hip hop group whose albums are heavily influenced by communist ideas.
 

Birdo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
826
I guess this is part of the thread where someone says all hip hip isn't what you hear in top 40 radio or in the club dancing.

I say that after reading a post talking about hip hop being against everything on the left not too long after spending a bulk of yesterday listening to Digable Planets, a hip hop group whose albums are heavily influenced by communist ideas.
Who are your top 5 favorite rappers?
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,322
Nope, because the N word deserves no part of this topic and I already covered it earlier. There is no "N-word" for women. The N word is what it is and it has been used on the forefront of actual death, violence and systematic control/power/slavery. Constant "comparisons" or "but what about the N word" in this topic are either ignorance or bordering on trolling.

Generic insults no matter what they are do not chart compared to the N word and its history, and most generic insults and swear words now have long histories of being socialized into everyone and anyone using them. Precisely because even if they are gendered, they've never had any legit movements in the past of the deaths of thousands if not millions led by carefully targetted language such as that of certain racial insults.
Bitch mightn't be the direct equivalent of a specific racial slur, but your argument that that is because women haven't been oppressed as much is just wrong. Death, violence and systematic control are hallmarks of patriarchy.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Bitch mightn't be the direct equivalent of a specific racial slur, but your argument that that is because women haven't been oppressed as much is just wrong. Death, violence and systematic control are hallmarks of patriarchy.

Nope, didn't say that either. I didn't make any comments about the quantity of racial oppression versus gender-based oppression throughout history. I was discussing the evidence supporting the use of words/language alongside physical acts of oppression (such as violence). Nothing compares to the N word. I'm not saying that again.

This is why forums are really grinding me down and I probably need a break.
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,453
Either way I'm not advocating the insulting of women by calling them bitches just because they're women. Night.

You kinda are because if we can't call them normal insults because it sounds weird then we have to give them their own insults. The only thing anybody has against the word bitch is that it's gendered/woman specific.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,408
I'm not sure why people want to be able to say bitch and cunt so desperately. Like, is it really that hard to avoid using a word you know is offensive and used to insult an oppressed group?
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,198
Who are your top 5 favorite rappers?
I don't have one. But even if I did , naming something problematic they said wouldn't invalidate my post.

Don't paint with too broad of a brush. Hip hop culture, at its roots, doesnt go against nearly everything on the left, and the ideas expressed in many of the subgenres are leftist ideas like social justice, multiculturalism, civil rights, anti war, anti capitalism, anti government corruption, socialism, and pro choice.

 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,453
It's hilarious how some words are context sensitive and other words are not.

Nah it's not, that's how real life works. The N word is never acceptable because of it's history, even more so than the fact it's aimed at one race. Honkey is a racist word against whites but it registers low if not non-existent on the offensive scale because white people don't have centuries of history of being oppressed by it, and owned, beaten, killed and mutilated by people screaming it.
 
Last edited:

Birdo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
826
I don't have one. But even if I did , naming something problematic they said wouldn't invalidate my post.

Don't paint with too broad of a brush. Hip hop culture, at its roots, doesnt go against nearly everything on the left, and the ideas expressed in many of the subgenres are leftist ideas like social justice, multiculturalism, civil rights, anti war, anti corruption, and socialism.


Why not? If I named something problematic that someone who's not associated with Hip Hop culture said or did, I would have a whole bunch of people here telling me how much of a shitty person they are.
 

Squiggely

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,142
User Warned: Trolling. Downplaying women's concerns with regards to words with bad connotations towards women.
I'm not sure why people want to be able to say bitch and cunt so desperately. Like, is it really that hard to avoid using a word you know is offensive and used to insult an oppressed group?

What group might that be?

Oppressed Bitches and Cunts sounds like a nasty porn video
 
Status
Not open for further replies.