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Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Japanese developers often get a free pass for their backwardness.

It's less of a pass since unlike the western publishers/developers, Japan is a complete different country where they can't influence, ask or interview the people that works on it like they do here in the west. It also don't have the same movements on the same size that we have in the west and a bunch of things related to it be it same sex marriage approval in the law (in the case of jp), trans questions, feminism and others that are small compared to here (tbf, that's also true in asia in general) so you'll be seeing it much more on that side too. Anyway, we'll be criticizing them for decades and decades until something happens in Japan in the same way that happened in the west, which I find extremely unlikely.
 
Oct 25, 2017
969
Yeah, I think as great of a game it might be, it's not for me. I am a huge single story, adventure gamer, and I feel like I need to experience all these great single players game. I've played a lot of them going back to SNES, PS one days all the way to MGS 5, Last Guardian etc. but not everything that is great is for me.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Not to defend those scenes as they are quite bad with the only silver lining being that they, in total, last like a minute in a 100 hour game, but it always upsets me slightly that Lala almost always seems absent from these conversations. I loved Lala, and I thought she was portrayed well, and I only had positive feelings towards her by the end.

It feels like she just gets brushed to the side in favor of solely talking about those two shitty scenes, and I find that kind of unfortunate.

Regardless, while I love the game, I really hope they take some backlash to heart. P5 has some inconsistent and even down right shitty writing at times with these scenes included. I can only assume they thought it a harmless joke, but I hope they somehow realize that it's not okay even as a throwaway line.
Because the average gay man does not double as a drag queen(or a trans man? I cant remember what Lola is, I avoided them after seeing the predators) People focus on that because youre forced to see these homophobic caricatures multiple times, meanwhile you don' have to see Lola ever. Saying the game does one good thing does not "make up for" this unrelated bad thing it also des.
 

enMTW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
894
The treatment was horrid and offensive, but par for course as far as Atlus goes. Catherine, for instance, is hands down the most sexist (and homophobic) even remotely mainstream work of last generation. I've kind of come to expect it. I'm not comfortable with the homophobia, but I've come to expect it.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
You can still think a game is great even if it's got bad stuff in it. There have been multiple threads on persona's more problematic parts before.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
The worst part about Atlus' homophobia is that P4 or Golden almost did great with the cut Yosuke social link having him reveal he's closeted and in love with you. That woulda put the characters homophobia into context and actually justified the writing.

Instead we just get mocked for the entire game for no reason lol
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
Because the average gay man does not double as a drag queen(or a trans man? I cant remember what Lola is, I avoided them after seeing the predators) People focus on that because youre forced to see these homophobic caricatures multiple times, meanwhile you don' have to see Lola ever. Saying the game does one good thing does not "make up for" this unrelated bad thing it also des.

Did I ever say it made up for it? I'm just saying that the presumably trans/drag character is handled well, and if you do the confidant you see much more of them than the gay men. It doesn't make up for it, but it's often ignored, and I think it's still a worthy thing to make note of in these conversations.
 

MsMuerta

Member
Nov 8, 2017
622
Lala is such a non character, though.

I just need a P5 Crimson that adds her as the Aeon Social Link.
 

banter

Member
Jan 12, 2018
4,127
Confession time:

While playing the game last year, I didn't even think about those two guys and how they were a negative portrayal of homosexual people.

Or about the objectification of Ann.

None of that crossed my mind at all.
I honestly think that this is how most view the game because most people don't take the portrayal of a few characters as being representative of an entire people! IMO people who see it otherwise are seeing it because they are looking for it to be that way, hence why...
But thinking about it now, yeah, it's pretty bad. I greatly enjoy everything else about the game though, and still think it's overall a fantastic game.
...because you were looking for it at that point.

Yes, when a game's only representation of a certain culture is negative, it's easy for you to think "wow, that makes our culture look bad". But that's hardly a portrayal saying that the entire culture is that way and I don't think it should be looked at as such. Do you want the developers to make more gay characters to randomly come in so that you can see that they aren't all sexual predators or something? Because honestly, unless you just expect there to never be a bad character of said background, that's the only way you won't get that feeling unless you just accept the fact that it's just that character(s).

As for the objectification of Ann... the objectification of women is very prevalent in society as a whole and to have it included in a game that is heavily social (character interactions, building relationships, etc) is merely being socially accurate.
 

Thuddert

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,298
Netherlands
It won't definitely go away, but I still have hope that since Hashino isn't on P6 that it'll atleast just not have gays at all.

Hashino as a person and head writer just does so much damage literally anyone is better.
Persona 5 is definitely his last work in that series, as he's moving on to that new rpg fantasy project. There's also the catherine remaster that team is working on, which is also worrisome.

Despite these issues arising Atlus games
do explore themes other games tend to avoid. As for why these issues get glossed over, I think it's because in general it's low on the priority list unfortunately.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,270
Because people that play games don't generally care. A game can have a ton of shitty prejudiced garbage in it, but if it does something neat in gameplay (or God help you if it's a franchise with a decent sized fanbase), then it'll get a pass.

Hop into the early pages of the "Why women have a problem with sexualized designs" thread and you'll see some handwaving. And that's typically for straight cis female characters. Forget about more marginalized groups.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Did I ever say it made up for it? I'm just saying that the presumably trans/drag character is handled well, and if you do the confidant you see much more of them than the gay men. It doesn't make up for it, but it's often ignored, and I think it's still a worthy thing to make note of in these conversations.
Why would anyone bring up an unrelated trans character when talking about the game's homophobia problems. The thread is literally about pointing out its problems in a sea of it getting praised. Saying "it did ___ good" isnt adding anything to the actual conversation. Sure, they're ignored, but thats not the point.
 
Nov 1, 2017
809
I've been on the other site and this one for like a decade. The responses to this thread don't jive with what i've seen in the past. Kinda interesting...
 

MsMuerta

Member
Nov 8, 2017
622
The original version already had transphobic jokes, and now they're doubling down on it? Yikes.

This is Rin, the character I'm talking about.

catherine-full-body-ps-vita_ps4_315928.jpg


This render is quiiiiite telling.

And here's Vincent's reaction to their naked body - especially their covered genitalia:

SFGN_Catherine.jpg
 
Dec 18, 2017
356
More often than not, it's much the same reason other media can blunder into insensitive content: lack of visibility or awareness of marginalized groups. Which is tough, because media is often how we get the voices of marginalized groups out to people who would otherwise never encounter them.

On that note, I have to say I'm extremely uncomfortable with the term "trap". Unless I'm missing something, it borders on slur territory. But do correct me if I'm missing something cultural here.
 
Oct 24, 2017
2,420
The transphobia is disgusting, yeah.
More often than not, it's much the same reason other media can blunder into insensitive content: lack of visibility or awareness of marginalized groups. Which is tough, because media is often how we get the voices of marginalized groups out to people who would otherwise never encounter them.

On that note, I have to say I'm extremely uncomfortable with the term "trap". Unless I'm missing something, it borders on slur territory. But do correct me if I'm missing something cultural here.
It's literally slang for transwomen "trapping" straight men who believe they have a vagina. It's gross and 99% of transwomen don't like it.
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
I had to hold my nose throughout those scenes in Persona 5 - they made me groan and really took me out of the moment from what seemed to be an otherwise well-written game, excluding some pretty terrible things they do with Ann's character after her whole arc.

Didn't stop me from pretending that MC and Ryuji had their own little low-key romance going on though.
 

MsMuerta

Member
Nov 8, 2017
622
On that note, I have to say I'm extremely uncomfortable with the term "trap". Unless I'm missing something, it borders on slur territory. But do correct me if I'm missing something cultural here.

It's definitely a slur, and I apologize if I offended anyone, but it's also the quickest term to explain a certain type of transphobia present in some of Japanese media.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,208
As a minority, none of this stuff is really glossed over by me; it all exists within the realm of "aww, c'on son" as I play. Points are docked, but unless it's outright horrible (and the gameplay is bad) I don't harp on it too long.

I also don't harp on it too long because for the past 25 years or so, gaming outside of sports titles was seen largely as a nerdy white boy thing. The games we play and have played are still largely being produced by those "nerdy white" guys. There's a whole yelling at a wall thing. Not to mention that I'm still a straight male even if I'm a minority, so there's not the heavy emotional attachment to certain things beyond portrayals of black people.

The shitty homophobic gay joke will get less of a reaction out of me than a shitty portrayal of a black person, even though I'm consciously aware of and make note of both being horrible during the course of a playthrough. That whole "straight male privilege" thing.

Not to mention, story heavy games or games with proper characterization beyond some snippets of dialog before you're funneled into the next shooting or platform jumping gallery are still not focused on in the mainstream by non-gamers and even some elements of the gaming industry; it's just Madden, Destiny, and Overwatch and variants of that. Except for when GTA comes out.

There's no real focus on characters and story, so shitty portrayals in games aren't picked up on like they are in comics, music, and movies.

So, things not being focused on + people locking on to shitty portrayals of things that resemble them more than things that don't + majority white male makeup of the hobby and the industry that fuels it make it hard for things to get focus. And if they do get focus, they don't get the focus they should.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,559
I'm of the assumption that Rin is going to be completely neuter, but the fact that they're presenting it the way that they are means they know what people think and are playing it for laughs.
 

banter

Member
Jan 12, 2018
4,127
User Warned: For this post, and others within the thread. Downplaying harmful stereotypes.
The transphobia is disgusting, yeah.

It's literally slang for transwomen "trapping" straight men who believe they have a vagina. It's gross and 99% of transwomen don't like it.
That's because 99% of trans-women don't do that and therefore they don't like being depicted as such. So to use it as a blanket term for trans is bad, but in the case of Rin it seems to be accurate. (not justifying what they're doing as I don't know the context of the character nor have I played the original game) My point is, as with my previous post, that there are people (albeit very few) out there like that and that's what is being portrayed and it shouldn't be seen as a reflection on the entire culture/people.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,208
It's definitely a slur, and I apologize if I offended anyone, but it's also the quickest term to explain a certain type of transphobia present in some of Japanese media.
Trap related transphobia doesn't exist exclusively to Japanese media, it's westernized, too.

I remember people spamming Admiral Ackbar gifs in "rate this woman out of 10" threads across a multitude of forums back in the day. Plus everytime someone referenced Thailand or Brazil, same sort of dialog was used.
 
Dec 15, 2017
1,354
I dont like much for boundaries in art based on who it may or may not offend, but if its sleezy perpetuating of untrue stereotypes like gay people being pedophiles, etc. Just to paint them in a poor light, that's crossing the line.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,559
I dont like much for boundaries in art based on who it may or may not offend, but if its sleezy perpetuating of untrue stereotypes like gay people being pedophiles, etc. Just to paint them in a poor light, that's crossing the line.
Do you feel criticism is a boundary?

If so, why is that only limited to subject material of offensiveness and not, say, game design?
 

MsMuerta

Member
Nov 8, 2017
622
Trap related transphobia doesn't exist exclusively to Japanese media, it's westernized, too.

I remember people spamming Admiral Ackbar gifs in "rate this woman out of 10" threads across a multitude of forums back in the day. Plus everytime someone referenced Thailand or Brazil, same sort of dialog was used.

Yeah, I've seen that term being used to refer to some Western white models too, so it's not exclusive to Japan.

However, in some otaku circles it's seen as a normal term, something you can use freely when talking about anime rather than people. I remember that controversy with certain Drag Race girls being paid to promote Nutaku games - a site that provided many eroge featuring "women that will threaten your anal integrity" (I believe that's what they said) - ... on the same Trans Visibility Day. :/
 

lauregami

Member
Apr 25, 2018
120
That's because 99% of trans-women don't do that and therefore they don't like being depicted as such. So to use it as a blankey term for trans is pretty bad, but in the case of Rin it seems to be accurate. (not justifying what they're doing as I don't know the context of the character nor have I played the original game)
This goes back to the issue of P5 and the gay male predators, though. The characters are created with a harmful stereotype in mind. The same phenomenon seems accurate to this character Rin because the people who created Rin think that trans women are only trying to "trap" men into "being gay". So the trans woman character they created reflects that stereotype, and they use it as an example to enforce it, not combat it.

Further, from my experience, as a trans woman, the 1% of people in our community who make an attempt to "reclaim" slurs like "trap" are Blaire White types wanting to justify their own discriminatory thinking and doing it as a way to save face to their peers who will think that way of them no matter what. It's not "reclamation", it's compromise.
 

banter

Member
Jan 12, 2018
4,127
This goes back to the issue of P5 and the gay male predators, though. The characters are created with a harmful stereotype in mind. The same phenomenon seems accurate to this character Rin because the people who created Rin think that trans women are only trying to "trap" men into "being gay". So the trans woman character they created reflects that stereotype, and they use it as an example to enforce it, not combat it.
So basically you don't want any sort of negative stereotypes to be used in conflicts of games whatsoever because they reinforce negative stereotypes?
 

Deleted member 21411

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,907
I honestly forget about atlus having this problem until I replay their games, and it's gone as far back as shin megami tensei 3 as far as I know. It's disappointing, it doesn't ruin any of the games for me but it does bitter the taste. There's a reason it's so much easier for me to say I love Yoko Taro then say "I love persona" because I can morally agree with that work.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,208
Yeah, I've seen that term being used to refer to some Western white models too, so it's not exclusive to Japan.

However, in some otaku circles it's seen as a normal term, something you can use freely when talking about anime rather than people. I remember that controversy with certain Drag Race girls being paid to promote Nutaku games - a site that provided many eroge featuring "women that will threaten your anal integrity" (I believe that's what they said) - ... on the same Trans Visibility Day. :/
Got dayum, that's pretty fucking tasteless.

But porn (and porn categories in general) tend to be pretty crass and tasteless, even in spite of the fact that it's porn and inherently possessing tasteless elements. All you have to do is look at any porn site in general to see what they call their trans categories, for example, let alone the shit you find in other categories that cater to minority participants.
 

greenwell

Member
Jan 12, 2018
461
The majority of the gaming community aren't marginalized and therefore will ignore discriminatory content because it doesn't affect them. I mean, look at some of the replies in this very thread.

So basically you don't want any sort of negative stereotypes to be used in conflicts of games whatsoever because they reinforce negative stereotypes?
You do realize these negative stereotypes impact real people lives in a harmful way, right.
 

Viale

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
Why would anyone bring up an unrelated trans character when talking about the game's homophobia problems. The thread is literally about pointing out its problems in a sea of it getting praised. Saying "it did ___ good" isnt adding anything to the actual conversation. Sure, they're ignored, but thats not the point.

They're not exactly equivalent, but I do see them often lumped together under LGBT problems in general where I feel Lala would apply. As far as sea of praise go, maybe I've been on reset too long as P5 constantly feels shat on on this site with this problem among others being brought up constantly. It's a problem worth pointing out definitely. I was just expressing that I found it unfortunate that I rarely see Lala brought up within these conversations because while it doesn't make up for the bad portrayal, I still think it's noteworthy and should be brought up more as a character we like to the developers.

That's all I was really trying to say :/
 

lauregami

Member
Apr 25, 2018
120
So basically you don't want any sort of negative stereotypes to be used in conflicts of games whatsoever because they reinforce negative stereotypes?
It relates back to the thing I talked about earlier, to the way the camera lens (and by proxy the people controlling that lens) portrays the people and the narrative it is following.

It'd be different if you could actually develop a relationship with the trans woman in a way that the main character of Catherine realizes his previous stereotypes of trans people are harmful. But given the screenshots above, I don't trust Atlus with that level of tact. It looks like they are using the trans character as a punchline and nothing more, and even with further development, the fact that the company is relying on a punchline that, even outside of its harmfulness, has been run into the ground really does cause people to question the writers' intent.

I can't stop people from using stereotypes, but it doesn't mean I can't call it out when I feel like those elements are used to strengthen the stereotype in general, and cause even more harm to the people affected by that stereotype, instead of being used to illustrate the harm a character's endured.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
Teen boys being horny is normal. Noticing your friend as being attractive is normal. Unapologetically leering up your friend's skirt as she's trying to sleep is fucking lecherous.
Sometimes they really are lecherous, some of my classmates in highschool. They've known better now, but man they did shit that, as a horny teen boy myself, can't approve.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
I'm not sure how you could make the argument that the homophobic content in P5 is glossed over. It's 0.1% of the game but is brought up frequently by multiple posters in every discussion of it. Do you think it needs to be talked about even more? I'm just not sure what else there is to say about it other than, yeah, those two scenes are pretty shitty and unfunny.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
They're not exactly equivalent, but I do see them often lumped together under LGBT problems in general where I feel Lala would apply. As far as sea of praise go, maybe I've been on reset too long as P5 constantly feels shat on on this site with this problem among others being brought up constantly. It's a problem worth pointing out definitely. I was just expressing that I found it unfortunate that I rarely see Lala brought up within these conversations because while it doesn't make up for the bad portrayal, I still think it's noteworthy and should be brought up more as a character we like to the developers.

That's all I was really trying to say :/
It's pobably not brought up since she's unfortunately easily ignorable. I only saw her once when doing the reporters SL1, and never really went back.
 

banter

Member
Jan 12, 2018
4,127
You do realize these negative stereotypes impact real people lives in a harmful way, right.
Only if you view them as a portrayal as an entire culture/people, which is ridiculous IMO. I do realize that not many people have the same mindset as me in this regard. If you think someone is going to play P5 and assume all gays are sexual predators going after their sons based on how they were depicted in the game... I just don't see it. But it may be a thing. Negative stereotype reinforcement is a thing, I'm not denying that! But the people who do harmful things and think these ways aren't going to have their "I should do something about this" moment because of their portrayal in P5 as they will have been indoctrinated into that way of thinking for years already. This is a very "thin line to cross" topic though as some stereotypes carry a lot more weight than others and so it's difficult to be able to say some should be allowed and others shouldn't. Catherine's trap thing is definitely a more dangerous stereotype IMO because trans are probably the most under-represented people in gaming/media so the mere act of there being a trans person in a game may be someone's first exposure to one, so I can see how there could be danger there. I still think anyone who would base their view of an entire people based on a character(s) in any form of media is ridiculous but maybe I'm being ignorant to people's shortsightedness?
 

ultra bawl

User requested ban
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,137
The writers don't exactly provide us with a view of gay men in any other context. All we get are homophobic representations of them. And in both instances, the tone of the scenes of sexual predation is one of comedy. I think the game is clear about its treatment of gay characters. This is the way gay men were viewed in America in the 1950s. As comic relief and as dangerous deviants. I don't see any shades of grey in P5's presentation of gay characters. And there's not many shades of grey in their treatment of Ann, either.
I just want to make myself clear, because I think you think I'm making excuses for something I hate in gaming - I agree with you about the series' queerphobia. Persona 5 is homophobic, and its exclusion of gay representation beyond those characters is a huge problem. What I was noting was that the party themselves aren't shown to explicitly agree with the game's views on gay men (though this is purely through omission and isn't a plus point in the game's favour), an important distinction for me because Persona 4 fails to do even that and that to me is a big deal and one that was more frequently glossed over by straight audiences before people started looking back on it after 5. As a queer person, it baffles me that 4's cast are lauded as being the best set of super friends who everyone loves spending 50+ hours with because that's a game where your best friend is explicitly homophobic and the game tacitly agrees with him and brushes his views off as funny instead of harmful. He's never called out on it, and honestly I dislike most of the characters for that reason. I've brought this up before and people excuse it as "just how teenagers are" or even support its sloppy inclusion in the game as "an important aspect of high school life that must be included for realism's sake in a game about teenagers with stands." I'm glad people recognise and dislike the cartoonish homophobia in 5, but I wish people would also recognise the harm in the more blithe approach to homophobes the previous entry had.
Lala is such a non character, though.

I just need a P5 Crimson that adds her as the Aeon Social Link.
Agreed, because as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I think what we do see of Lala shows them to be one of the more responsible and thoughtful adults in the game, and their position in society would fit in with the game's themes.

But let's be real it'll be a cute tsundere Marie type who turns out to be a mythological figure with a connection the endgame.

Edit: disappointed but not surprised the new character in Catherine is potentially going to be a 'trap' representation of a non-cis character again. I haven't been following the marketing so didn't realise. That sucks a lot.
 

Zatoichi

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,073
Ireland
Diversity in the gaming press has no bearing on this issue as I will say the majority of the game buying public won't care.

There in lies the real issue.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,487
I was reading that "Persona 5 is overrated" thread and remembered how many GOTY press lists it was on. Then I remembered how it displayed some of the most horrible, 1950s-era homophobic attitudes I've seen in a game. They treated gay men both as a joke and as dangerous sexual predators of boys. And yet press outlets lavished praise on the game. Gave it Game of the Year. I'm not singling Persona 5 out here, but can you imagine a film winning an Oscar in 2017 which treated gay people like predators and jokes? And yet that is what is happening in the game industry. The Game Awards, SXSW Gaming Awards, IGN, Polygon, Gamespot, Giant Bomb, Eurogamer, EGM, DualShockers, and others all gave Persona 5 either a GOTY, an award in a specific category, or presented it on their best of the year lists. I don't remember any of these press outlets even mentioning the homophobia in the game as they showered it with praise. NOTE: This is just one game, but we can all think of other games with similarly prejudiced attitudes (and please feel free to discuss those in this context).

What does that say about our industry? That we overlook marginalization and demonization of minority groups because we like the rest of the game, or gloss it over because it's our favorite IP? This blame goes all the way around -- on the studios who make sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or racist content, on the press who award these works with accolades, and on the purchasers of this content and the communities who defend the works (or the "culture"). We're all responsible for this, and I think it's past time we have and uphold a higher standard for creative works in this medium. Kids are playing these games, kids who are in these often-marginalized minority groups. They should not be told they are a public menace, revolting, or a joke by a game. No one should.

Thank you for making this topic OP, this is something that has bothered me for a long time. I don't really have anything more to add, you've communicated really well my malaise and if this industry wants to be taken more seriously, it's this sort of criticism that should be front and centre in gaming reviews, not relegated to blogs and forum posts. Then again when Carolyne Petit attempted that with the misogyny in GTA5 she was met with the most awful abuse and harassment so I can understand why some critics don't want to touch this.

Us gamers, ay?
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
there is socially backwards stuff in Persona 5, 4, and 3. And i totally acknowledge that. And i also totally acknowledge that they are still great games despite that.

Maybe its me just being pedantic, but if we're speaking out about socially damaging stuff in video games like GTA and trying to get games shamed over that, or implying they dont deserve scores for those elements, there would not be many games i enjoyed in this industry, just for visceral violence alone as just an example

Of course, that is not to say i don't care about things like transphobia, overt sexism and the portrayal of social attitudes in games. But saying reviewers are ignoring those things by not starting movements with their reviews is going too far
 
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