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eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,232
I was reading that "Persona 5 is overrated" thread and remembered how many GOTY press lists it was on. Then I remembered how it displayed some of the most horrible, 1950s-era homophobic attitudes I've seen in a game. They treated gay men both as a joke and as dangerous sexual predators of boys. And yet press outlets lavished praise on the game. Gave it Game of the Year. I'm not singling Persona 5 out here, but can you imagine a film winning an Oscar in 2017 which treated gay people like predators and jokes? And yet that is what is happening in the game industry. The Game Awards, SXSW Gaming Awards, IGN, Polygon, Gamespot, Giant Bomb, Eurogamer, EGM, DualShockers, and others all gave Persona 5 either a GOTY, an award in a specific category, or presented it on their best of the year lists. I don't remember any of these press outlets even mentioning the homophobia in the game as they showered it with praise. NOTE: This is just one game, but we can all think of other games with similarly prejudiced attitudes (and please feel free to discuss those in this context).

What does that say about our industry? That we overlook marginalization and demonization of minority groups because we like the rest of the game, or gloss it over because it's our favorite IP? This blame goes all the way around -- on the studios who make sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or racist content, on the press who award these works with accolades, and on the purchasers of this content and the communities who defend the works (or the "culture"). We're all responsible for this, and I think it's past time we have and uphold a higher standard for creative works in this medium. Kids are playing these games, kids who are in these often-marginalized minority groups. They should not be told they are a public menace, revolting, or a joke by a game. No one should.
 
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Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,107
When you like something you're more reluctant to acknowledge that it has done something wrong. I don't think this is specific to video games. It applies to actors, musicians, etc.
 

Boogie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16
When you like something you're more reluctant to acknowledge that it has done something wrong. I don't think this is specific to video games. It applies to actors, musicians, etc.
yeah but the difference here is that these problems are in the games, this isn't exactly an 'art' vs 'the artist' thing
 

Filament Star

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,817
That's just such an infinitesimally small part of the game that even though everyone might acknowledge it as bad not everyone thinks it's worth dwelling on or docking the game for.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Yeah, how people can just ignore the really disgusting shit in P5 and call it perfect or GotY feels like people that lack a lot of empathy.

I really like P5, but the homophobia and really gross objectification of Ann after her sexual harassment isn't forgivable or overlookable. Things like this should always be a thing that knocks a point off.

That's just such an infinitesimally small part of the game that even though everyone might acknowledge it as bad not everyone thinks it's worth dwelling on or docking the game for.
Ann's objectification happens throughout the entire game.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Mostly because other mediums care more about narrative, while that scene in P5 is a small portion of a 100 hour game. Not defending it, I think Hashino games have lots of terrible stuff. The new Catherine is disgusting to me.
 

Interficium

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,569
A lot of shit in Japanese games gets glossed by the western media because they're huge fans of "the culture" and assume the unsavory parts are just "part of the culture."
 

srtrestre

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,970
Persona 5 is having a rough day today.

As for the topic, I haven't played the game yet, but this isn't the first time I heard about its homomphobic content. Disappointing stuff.
 

bluexy

Comics Enabler & Freelance Games Journalist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
14,517
Just for clarification -- is the underlying assertion here that art can't be great if it's problematic?
 

capnjazz

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
991
Byrgenwerth
Yeah, how people can just ignore the really disgusting shit in P5 and call it perfect or GotY feels like people that lack a lot of empathy.

I really like P5, but the homophobia and really gross objectification of Ann after her sexual harassment isn't forgivable or overlookable. Things like this should always be a thing that knocks a point off.


Ann's objectification happens throughout the entire game.

Ann's objectification and sexual harassment are presented as awful things in the game, because they are awful things in the real world. I'm not sure having two homosexual characters presented as a joke would qualify as homophobic, but that's just from my perspective. All they did was casually flirt with Joker and Ryuji to try to make them uncomfortable, they might not have even found them attractive and we're just goofing around. That's actually how I took that scene.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
Pretty sure I remember GB talking about that stuff. I could be mistaken though.

Regardless, it's true that it doesn't come up nearly enough in reviews. I love P5, but I'm not blind to all of the gross shit in it.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Mostly because other mediums care more about narrative, while that scene in P5 is a small portion of a 100 hour game. Not defending it, I think Hashino games have lots of terrible stuff. The new Catherine is disgusting to me.
Isn't Hashino the dude that admitted for the first 25 years of his life he thought girls physically couldn't be just friends with boys? and some other reaaaaaally shut-in/nerdy leagues of skeevy?
 

Deleted member 42221

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
2,749
My cynical answer is that critics either want to avoid a backlash (I remember Gamespot's GTAV review getting a lot of shit for even suggesting that game was misogynistic, which is barely scratching the surface), or are aware of the problems but don't care enough to call them out. As I said in the Bioshock Infinite thread, the gaming press is somewhat maturing, but they're more talking the talk than walking the walk - they're performative and retrospective with criticism of bad content - not immediate.

I don't trust any outlets that give games like Persona 5 and GTAV perfect scores.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,877
Some people don't think that stuff is a problem.

Some people do, but it doesn't concern them enough to critique it deeply.

Some people who might have a problem with it haven't played the game.

People also do critique this stuff, but maybe you've missed it. I wonder if Waypoint did, for example, since this sort of critique of video games is right up their alley.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Isn't Hashino the dude that admitted for the first 25 years of his life he thought girls physically couldn't be just friends with boys? and some other reaaaaaally shut-in/nerdy leagues of skeevy?
Yeeep. Persona 2, before him, had a gay character that was treated really well. It's kinda sad to see this happening in the IP then.
 

JCX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
795
All your faves are problematic, so it comes down to which sorts of bad representation ruin experiences for you.

Aside from Sojiro's general "no homo" attitude, I didn't notice the homophobia in p5. It's such a small part that I often forget it's in there until threads like this.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Ann's objectification and sexual harassment are presented as awful things in the game, because they are awful things in the real world. I'm not sure having two homosexual characters presented as a joke would qualify as homophobic, but that's just from my perspective. All they did was casually flirt with Joker and Ryuji to try to make them uncomfortable, they might not have even found them attractive and we're just goofing around. That's actually how I took that scene.
Im a homosexual, do not tell me what is or isn't homophobic. They are gay predators preying on underage boys multiple times in the game, both with heavily exaggerated and effeminate mannerism and which are reacted to with terror as if they were freaks.

Even if they weren't clearly predatory, they are still exaggerated gross and toxic gay stereotypes that I'm sick of and are homophobic.

Ann is objectified by the game itself with Ryuji at multiple points skeeving on her by looking up her skirt(literally right after her ordeal), the MC and Ryuji forcing her to strip for Yosuke, and Ryuji looking down her shirt.

Yeeep. Persona 2, before him, had a gay character that was treated really well. It's kinda sad to see this happening in the IP then.
I was super interested in P2, but then the writer of that came out and said it was an experiment to attract fujoshis/yaoi fans and not actually for gay people, and I immediately lost any interest in that writer's works.

I'd rather just no gay mentioned at all than what they've given.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
The cynical part of me says it's because in the end it doesn't affect them - the majority of critics are generally white straight men, so while they can admit some stuff is bad, it's not going to take them out of the game like it would for LGBT/women. It's easiar to sidestep. They can still have fun - the ones that aren't going to have fun don't write the reviews.
 

Deleted member 39587

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 6, 2018
2,676

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Great work can be, and often is, problematic. We can recognize that and still consider them great.
 

Cheezeman3000

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 5, 2018
1,092
Does one piece of an entire work of art ever take precedence over the work as a whole? Does every movie that is nominated for an award not have similar issues here and there?

OP I think you're stretching a bit and are doing the artform a disservice to discredit the entire work because of one part of it you don't like.
 

capnjazz

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
991
Byrgenwerth
User Banned (3 Days): Aggressively attempting to dictate the terms of homophobia
Im a homosexual, do not tell me what is or isn't homophobic. They are gay predators preying on underage boys multiple times in the game, both with heavily exaggerated and effeminate mannerism and which are reacted to with terror as if they were freaks.

Even if they weren't clearly predatory, they are still exaggerated gross and toxic gay stereotypes that I'm sick of and are homophobic.

Ann is objectified by the game itself with Ryuji at multiple points skeeving on her by looking up her skirt(literally right after her ordeal), the MC and Ryuji forcing her to strip for Yosuke, and Ryuji looking down her shirt.

I don't give a shit what you are, do not tell me how to interpret things. I told you how I saw the scene, if you saw it differently and choose to see malice behind everything, that's fine.
 

Heisenberg726

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,068
While it's treatment of homosexuals does mar the final product, the entire package of Persona 5 is amazing and absolutely deserving of its praise and GOTYs
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
I don't give a shit what you are, do not tell me how to interpret things. I told you how I saw the scene, if you saw it differently and choose to see malice behind everything, that's fine.
Heterosexuals(or any non-homosexual) are not allowed to determine or interpret what literally every homosexual has complained about being homophobic as not. Everything isn't about you. That's all I'll say about this.
 

yungronny

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
1,349
I'm gay and I looked past that stupid shit because the game was otherwise great. In my opinion!
 
Nov 1, 2017
257
I specifically remember an article about P4, in which Naoto and Kanji were lauded for their reactions and representations. and the story was applauded by representations of societal norms and pressures to act a certain way. Maybe these characters were more complex in their story.

I think it's more to do with the theme of the game. in P4, you were reaching out to the truth, showing people who people really were afraid to be, then helping them accept who they were proudly.

in P5, the theme is emancipation, so overthrowing those who are under the heel of a dominating force, then and forcing that force to confront the wake of their own actions. Every character does this in some way.
 

SlimeKnight

Member
Jan 2, 2018
250
Yeah, every time I bring up how the blatant homophobia in the game (among other issues) really sours my opinion of it, I am immediately told, "It's not a big deal or a deal breaker, get over it."

Uh, as a gay man, a game trying to stereotype me and people of my community as sick pedophiles who chase around and hit on straight men all day is a major deal breaker and unacceptable. Also how it goes out of its way to mock and ridicule Lala Escargot for not conforming to gender norms.

It's pretty clear that these characters were only put into the game to make jokes at their expense. There are good things about the game and I finished it, but this turned me off so much that I am actually considering not buying any more Atlus games after this.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,861
Yeeep. Persona 2, before him, had a gay character that was treated really well. It's kinda sad to see this happening in the IP then.

Such a shame too, offering a diversity of characters isn't even a risk, it's just regular storytellling. It's otaku culture setting everyone back for no reason.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
I think it says a lot more about the Japanese gaming industry.

LGBTQ character portrayals are handled much better in the west.
Honestly I'll always be suspect of Japan games when it comes to LGBT portrayals until the majority of them are atleast on the level of Yoko Taro. His characters aren't perfect but Emil being canonically gay and not a gross stereotype is still great.
 

capnjazz

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
991
Byrgenwerth
Heterosexuals(or any non-homosexual) are not allowed to determine or interpret what literally every homosexual has complained about being homophobic as not. Everything isn't about you. That's all I'll say about this.

I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to do that, in fact I'm doing it right now. It's kinda like how I'm not white but there are tons of white people with pro-diversity messages. Are you saying they're not allowed to speak on my behalf? "Everything isn't about you." You should probably take your own advice.
 

yungronny

Banned
Nov 27, 2017
1,349
I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to do that, in fact I'm doing it right now. It's kinda like how I'm not white but there are tons of white people with pro-diversity messages. Are you saying they're not allowed to speak on my behalf? "Everything isn't about you." You should probably take your own advice.
Lol, this. Dude is apparently representing all us homos.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
Yeah, every time I bring up how the blatant homophobia in the game (among other issues) really sours my opinion of it, I am immediately told, "It's not a big deal or a deal breaker, get over it."

Uh, as a gay man, a game trying to stereotype me and people of my community as sick pedophiles who chase around and hit on straight men all day is a major deal breaker and unacceptable. Also how it goes out of its way to mock and ridicule Lala Escargot for not conforming to gender norms.

It's pretty clear that these characters were only put into the game to make jokes at their expense. There are good things about the game and I finished it, but this turned me off so much that I am actually considering not buying any more Atlus games after this.
It made me take a like multi month break, lol. And holy shit, I completely forgot about Lala. Tried to avoid them as much as possible after the predators because I just did not want to see what they'd do there.
 

lambdaupsilon

Member
Apr 17, 2018
1,212
Honestly I'll always be suspect of Japan games when it comes to LGBT portrayals until the majority of them are atleast on the level of Yoko Taro. His characters aren't perfect but Emil being canonically gay and not a gross stereotype is still great.
anime and manga too
it's insanely hard to find girl/girl romance that's not either male gazey or teases that lead to nothing
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to do that, in fact I'm doing it right now. It's kinda like how I'm not white but there are tons of white people with pro-diversity messages. Are you saying they're not allowed to speak on my behalf? "Everything isn't about you." You should probably take your own advice.
White people trying to tell you how something that is clearly racist isnt racist is what you are doing right now dude. And people like you are adding to the problem, giving blind defense and turning a blind eye. Which makes you homophobic.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
I think people can enjoy stuff with problematic aspects and still criticize them. Gets harder when it's a huge part of the story or focus of the game.

I think it says a lot more about the Japanese gaming industry.

LGBTQ character portrayals are handled much better in the west.
They are talking about reception (fan and critical) in the west too, not just the developers.

Also, the west has problems with this stuff too. People pretty much are giving Detroit a pass and ignoring David Cage's toxicity.
 
Oct 27, 2017
920
There's probably a slight tendency to overlook this kind of content, but it's improving. The industry and audience are gradually maturing in this regard, but we still have a ways to go.

I don't think Persona 5 is a particularly strong example however. Like others have said, the homophobic scenes are about 2 minutes out of a 100 hour game, so I don't blame people for not letting such a small portion of the game color their entire opinion.
 

Deleted member 12833

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,078
Even if on Era I feel like there is some silent agreement where it is okay for this crap in Japanese games, but if it's a western game then we see topics just digging for there to be a controversy.....see sad dad
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
anime and manga too
it's insanely hard to find girl/girl romance that's not either male gazey or teases that lead to nothing
While not finished yet and could lead somewhere bad, I heavily recommend Magical Girl Ore! Nearly every main character(besides the main character Saki) Is clearly gay as hell, and it's also so far an interesting look at gender!
 

EekumBokum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
I don't know why a lot of outlets chose to ignore those unsavory elements. I was going to say it's because of an inability to criticize things you like, but that's more of a general populace thing. Outlets are meant to be critical and have been critical of aspects of that game, but what you mention was largely ignored for some reason.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Probably because while the game has those elements, the other points are really strong. You can do that while recognizing those points if they bother you. It's not wrong.

I think it says a lot more about the Japanese gaming industry.

LGBTQ character portrayals are handled much better in the west.

Of course they are, but I would say that that's more a problem on the country. There's no movement in the same size sphere like in the west and there's no one educating people about those questions (along to the fact that gay marriage isn't legal) so it's obvious that those visions will keep coming for years and years forth in some way or another for most of the content.

anime and manga too
it's insanely hard to find girl/girl romance that's not either male gazey or teases that lead to nothing

That's because yuri is mostly focused on male just like yaoi is focused on female.

A lot of shit in Japanese games gets glossed by the western media because they're huge fans of "the culture" and assume the unsavory parts are just "part of the culture."

It is definitely culture but not in the way that you portray. It's a different culture in that case because Japan (and Asia in general) is different of the West in many aspects including LGBT, feminism, work conditions and plenty of other things because of different things that happened in there in comparison to here, causing this big difference in thinking between those two sides.
 
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Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Isn't Hashino the dude that admitted for the first 25 years of his life he thought girls physically couldn't be just friends with boys? and some other reaaaaaally shut-in/nerdy leagues of skeevy?
Hashino is also on record having requested that the character designer make all the female characters look cute.
My cynical answer is that critics either want to avoid a backlash (I remember Gamespot's GTAV review getting a lot of shit for even suggesting that game was misogynistic, which is barely scratching the surface), or are aware of the problems but don't care enough to call them out. As I said in the Bioshock Infinite thread, the gaming press is somewhat maturing, but they're more talking the talk than walking the walk - they're performative and retrospective with criticism of bad content - not immediate.

I don't trust any outlets that give games like Persona 5 and GTAV perfect scores.
I'm sure this is a lot of it considering how much harassment critics and publications get whenever they don't just validate certain people's opinions. People get so carried away making individual things like part of their identity that they can't compartmentalize any of it. Criticism of part gets perceived as criticism of the whole, which gets perceived as personal attacks.
 

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
It has problematic elements and I hate that they're there, but they're like 10 minutes of a 105 hour long game.

This isn't me making an excuse. Hashino needs to rethink his approach to what content he includes in his games, especially since he's starting to put more social commentary in his titles, and since his games are getting more international traction. But those 10 minutes, while awful and anachronistic, are not representative of my 105 hours of experience with Persona 5.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
Just for clarification -- is the underlying assertion here that art can't be great if it's problematic?
Not at all. I believe the question is regardless of how great the art may be, should we really be rewarding it if it contains content like that? Does it being great art really justify overlooking it and lavishing it with awards anyway? Shouldn't we have higher standards instead, and those type of things be disqualifiers if anything, instead of being overlooked?

That's more of what the gist is here, I think--not whether the art is otherwise great or not, but rather, regardless of whether it is or isn't, whether we should be rewarding such art regardless and overlook such details and content, or if we should stop doing that and instead call that out and if anything take awards off the table for it, because of the very real effects that kind of content has which certainly shouldn't be overlooked at all.
 

skillzilla81

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,043
I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to do that, in fact I'm doing it right now. It's kinda like how I'm not white but there are tons of white people with pro-diversity messages. Are you saying they're not allowed to speak on my behalf? "Everything isn't about you." You should probably take your own advice.

Swing and a miss. White people can have pro-diversity messages, and non-LGBTQ can be advocates, but it's a bad look for white people to say, "That's not racist," as we've seen happen several times the past month or so. And a bad look for somebody who is not LGBTQ to say what is or isn't a problem for those people.
 

Giudecca

Member
Oct 27, 2017
315
A lot of shit in Japanese games gets glossed by the western media because they're huge fans of "the culture" and assume the unsavory parts are just "part of the culture."

This. Cultural barriers are always the elephant in the room for this type of stuff. And Japanese devs don't honestly care about the criticism from Western folks because it's just a secondary market to many of them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
It's easier to overlook something when it doesn't personally discriminate against you. It was also brief.

I can look at that moment and go "wow, that's a bit over the top" and then keep playing.
Breath of the Wild approached a similar line, some people wrote about it, but to me, it was one section that was questionable, I played through it and moved on.