Which game did "the cycle of violence" better -- TLOU 2 or RDR 2? [Open Spoilers]

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I recently finished a New Game+ for TLOU 2 after having finished Red Dead Redemption 2. They're both excellent games, and I noticed that they both focus on a central theme relating to the cyclical nature of violence.

In Red Dead Redemption 2, we see the consequences of Dutch's violence being passed over to Arthur, the consequences of Arthur's violence being passed over to John, and the consequences of his violence being finally passed down to his son Jack.

In TLOU 2, we see the consequences of Joel's violence being passed down to Abby, and the consequences of Abby's violence being passed down to Ellie.

They both show people growing increasingly numb to the consequences of their actions, growing tunnel-visioned in the pursuit of what can only be defined as revenge.

In Red Dead Redemption 2, this was portrayed through Dutch's spiral into vengeful violence following the death of his closest allies (including Hosea, most of all.)

In TLOU 2, this was portrayed through Ellie, as she lost almost everyone she loved pursuing revenge for the loss of Joel.

Which game do you think portrayed this theme of the cycle of violence better -- TLOU 2 or RDR 2?

If I had to choose, I'd say that it was Red Dead Redemption 2 that did this the best. TLOU 2's pacing really dragged it down for me. During the first half of the game, I was exhilerated and constantly at the edge of my seat. As soon as the second half started, the game's pacing came to an abrupt halt, really pulling me out of the experience. Red Dead Redemption 2 did slog at times, but it committed to its pace. Every mission and cutscene seemed meticulously crafted, and its engrossing atmosphere better lent itself to the plot's slow burn. It was perhaps this atmosphere that also made Red Dead Redemption 2's plot sequences seem more authentic to me -- Dutch's spiral into madness felt more realistic than Ellie's.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think. I linked a poll above.

Edit:
Assume I'm talking about the overarching stories of RDR1/2 and TLOU1/2. Should've clarified that in my post, sorry.

 

[Chromie]

God of War

Kratos, well, he became the God of War. He wanted so much to change. Kratos gave Baldur many many chances during the times when he had a choice between killing his mother and how he ended it. Kratos as much as he pretended not to, cared for Freya both because he understood Freya because she was a parent and because of how she cared for and saved his son. He also understood Baldur, being unable to escape the rage of his parents' crimes against him, but he knew that it was necessary to break the cycle of patricide he identified in Baldur. He feared Atreus would end up falling into that cycle.

 

[Kard8p3]

RDR2 felt more like people waging war against the passing of time and the evolution of society, more than the cycle of violence.

 

[Nameless Hero]

Neither of them, it's Spec Ops The Line.

Unlike Ellie Walker comes in with nothing but good intentions but his heroism backfires again and again and again because the world isn't as simple as "good choice, bad choice". So you literally watch this character go insane over the course of the game.

 

[Deleted member 58846]

RDR2 felt more like people waging war against the passing of time and the evolution of society, more than the cycle of violence.

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Yeah, this. I never got the impression it was a commentary on the cycle of violence in any sense.

 

[spman2099]

I don't actually identify that as a primary theme in RDR2.

 

[Linus815]

RDR 2 enhances RDR 1's tragedy with Jack succumbing to the same life, but ultimately RDR 2 is more about fighting an impossible to win battle.

 

[TheJackdog]

I don't actually identify that as a primary theme in RDR2.

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yeah, did not get this from red dead.

 

[Garlador]

Xenoblade Chronicles.

The battle between the Bionis and Mechonis lasts through centuries all the way down to their descendants.

And that's the plot... for MOST of the game, at least. To get revenge. Eye for an eye. "I won't rest until I kill every last one of you."

... It takes a turn.

 

[Protome]

This SMBC comic did it better than either tbh

Also I agree that it's largely not the main focus of RDR2, so I guess TLOU2 by default?

 

[Wise]

That couldn't have been the main theme of RDR2? Well not according to me anyways, never thought of that when playing it

 

[Kalentan]

I never got the impression that was part of RDR2.

 

[bing]

Neither of them, it's Spec Ops The Line.

Unlike Ellie Walker comes in with nothing but good intentions but his heroism backfires again and again and again because the world isn't as simple as "good choice, bad choice". So you literally watch this character go insane over the course of the game.

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Spec Ops: The Line did do this really well. I played it after someone recommended it on Era, really harrowing and surprisingly well written for a game that didn't have much of a lasting pop-culture impact.

I don't actually identify that as a primary theme in RDR2.

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I played Red Dead Redemption 1 and 2 back-to-back, so I suppose that may have been a reason that I associated that theme so closely with the game. When viewing their overarching story, especially the final epilogues of both games, the impacts of the main characters' violence is examined through the vessel of others. In the first game, this was Jack, and in the second game this was John.

 

[Uzupedro]

Red Dead Redemption is about, well, redemption, I don't think the focus is on the cycle of violence and internal hatred.
Dutch was crazy and greedy, Arthur was a sad person inside, most of their attitudes made them bad people but it was nothing personal, the closest you can talk about is John's revenge against Micah, but it's far from the focus of the game, so much so that RDR1 is about John's redemption and only in the end he is punished for his mistakes (and wasn't even fair).

 

[Linus815]

It's not the main theme but it is present.

"Revenge is a fools game", as Arthur says multiple times. If John stayed on his ass like Abigail begged him to, then the Pinkertons likely never would've found them, and the events of RDR 1 could have been avoided, and Jack may have actually had a chance at a normal life.

However, as I said above, this is mainly explored in the epilogue, and as such, it kinda connects wtih RDR 1 more.

 

[Addleburg]

RDR2 felt more like people waging war against the passing of time and the evolution of society, more than the cycle of violence.

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Yeah, I didn't play RDR2 and really note that it was especially about the cycle of violence. I mean violence begets violence - that's something we see in tons of media, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they portray it in super fleshed out ways.

TLoU2 had its issues, but the game focuses so intently on mirroring these characters against one another, the passage of time, and how these vengeful characters contrast against those who are more easily able to prioritize their future over being stuck in their muddy past. I think it blows RDR2 out of the water when it comes to exploring those themes. But again, I don't necessarily feel that RDR2's central theme was about the cycle of violence, but more about Arthur weighing loyalty to his friend against doing what he knew to be just in his heart.

 

[Doomguy Fieri]

The game you are looking for is SUPERHOT.

 

[Belthazar90]

Neither of them, it's Spec Ops The Line.

Unlike Ellie Walker comes in with nothing but good intentions but his heroism backfires again and again and again because the world isn't as simple as "good choice, bad choice". So you literally watch this character go insane over the course of the game.

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That game is just so unexpectedly good in so many ways, I went in expecting nothing when they gave it for free on PS+ and was blown away. Definitely underrated.

 

[Vex]

I feel rdr1 did the whole cycle of violence thingy well imo. I mean, you literally play as the son of your murdered dad right after he dies to avenge him.

 

[effin]

For me TLOU2 was obviously more tightly focused on this theme, and yet despite that I think I actually preferred how RDR2 handled it.

 

[fanboy]

Between those two games its not even a competition lol. Tlou 2 is on another level (i loved rdr 2 and its story/characters).

 

[Kill3r7]

RDR2 felt more like people waging war against the passing of time and the evolution of society, more than the cycle of violence.

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[Rover_]

TLOU2 and it's not even a contest.

RDR2 is a spaghetti western about the dying age of wild west.

 

[FakePlasticTree]

Red Dead Redemption is about, well, redemption, I don't think the focus is on the cycle of violence and internal hatred.
Dutch was crazy and greedy, Arthur was a sad person inside, most of their attitudes made them bad people but it was nothing personal, the closest you can talk about is John's revenge against Micah, but it's far from the focus of the game, so much so that RDR1 is about John's redemption and only in the end he is punished for his mistakes (and wasn't even fair).

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Then he son grows up to be just like him just to take revenge on his murderer, sp I guess you could say there is a cycle of revenge and violence going on in Red Dead

 

[TheGhost]

RDR2, better story and characters in regards to that. TLOU2 had better combat

 

[Sordid Plebeian]

RDR1 did it better than RDR2, but I'd still say TLOU2

 

[Betty]

TLOU2 is more about the cycle of revenge.

But either way TLOU2.

 

[monmagman]

TLoU 2 for me...having two perspectives and seeing Ellie tear through all Abby's friends hit home much harder.

 

[Uzupedro]

Then he son grows up to be just like him just to take revenge on his murderer, sp I guess you could say there is a cycle of revenge and violence going on in Red Dead

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I agree, it just isn't the main focus of both games.
John and Jack's revenge( and how it affect them) are very short passages in the arch of these characters.

 

[FakePlasticTree]

I agree, it just isn't the main focus of both games.
John and Jack's revenge( and how it affect them) are very short passages in the arch of these characters.

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Oh there are definitely several themes like redemption, it's a story of change, it's a story about a clash of ideals, it deconstructs the western outlaw. But at the heart of it there is violence. If the game had decided to end at the point where Marston reunotes with his family, then I might have thought differently. Marston himself spends the entire game murdering people to get both his family and his own freedom, ultimately he gets murdered for his trouble because in Ross' eyes he is no better than the fellow gang members he was set out to hunt. Because of this Jack decides to abandon his father's wishes for a better future and thus he perpetuates the cycle of violence by killing Ross.
The game doesn't even try to glorify Jack's action, it just cuts to credits the moment Ross is shot dead left in a river
Ultimately, Jack's revenge was the final step to Jack entering the outlaw lifestyle that his father fought so hard to Escape. He throws it away in favor of revenge, ignoring that John's final sacrifice was meant to make sure that Edgar Ross would finally leave his family alone. Spoiler for the Last of Us 2.

Spoiler

Pretty similar to how Abby lets Ellie live in the Last of,Us Part 2.

Having said that, I do agree that the story isn't just about revenge it's also about refusing to adapt to change, which is also reflected in Jack's actions, as well as trying to Force your ideals on the world the way Dutch does. I do think there is some fun comparisons and discussions to be had between Red Dead and Last of Us 2. Even Red Dead 2 ends with revenge as well.

 

[GattsuSama]

Voted other because I haven't beat RDR2 and I think this whole cycle of violence thing was a bit overblown.

The game had to say more about specific revenge in the protagonists stories than some cycle of violence. Maybe I misunderstood the whole thing as I expected it to play out more in your actions than the story but even then other than the 6-8 people you killed that were directly named NPC in the story the others were just canon fodder.

When I heard the talk about cycle of violence I though it was about you as the player having to deal with killing NPCs. I get that the deaths were graphic and made you care at first but as I expected they grew old. The grew into repetitive actions in a video game and as such you get desensitized about them. Killing the Nth NPC or dog did not matter after a number of hours.

I did like the story a lot and a bunch of it having to deal with violence and revenge was top notch, but it is not what I expected from this cycle of violence.