What's funny is, as I've gotten older, I think I follow the trail of opinions in succession.
Bonus cringe video: https://www.facebook.com/TheHoldernessfamily/videos/2143602559195493/
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Where do you fall in this "Baby, It's Cold Outside" brain expansion meme?
- Thread starter uncelestial
- Start date
What's funny is, as I've gotten older, I think I follow the trail of opinions in succession.
Bonus cringe video: https://www.facebook.com/TheHoldernessfamily/videos/2143602559195493/
I'm a mix of the first and last box. I don't love the song but I also don't care to psychoanalyze the lyrics of a super old song.
Mostly the second to last one, with a pinch of the first one. If that conversation between a man and a woman was playing out in the real world I don't think the man could responsibly have sex with the woman all things considered.
But I also kind of just like the song.
Edit: Actually, I don't even know how much I agree with the fourth one. I guess it makes valid points, but really what it's arguing is there isn't much inherently wrong with the material, especially in it's time, but pragmatically we should be weary of it because it can be misconstrued by modern audiences. I disagree that the criticism comes from a misconstruing of the song; the song is already iffy. If the man has to engage in beyond a certain threshold of coercion to have sex for a woman, it's not OK. It doesn't really matter after a certain point if the arguments being made have to do with external factors like social approval. He's made it difficult to know from an outside observer to know whether or not the woman is genuinely consenting, regardless if it's because mother/father/grandma wagging their finger or other factors.
I think the conversation should really be about how willing should we be to let this kind of material exist even if it presents problems.
But I also kind of just like the song.
Edit: Actually, I don't even know how much I agree with the fourth one. I guess it makes valid points, but really what it's arguing is there isn't much inherently wrong with the material, especially in it's time, but pragmatically we should be weary of it because it can be misconstrued by modern audiences. I disagree that the criticism comes from a misconstruing of the song; the song is already iffy. If the man has to engage in beyond a certain threshold of coercion to have sex for a woman, it's not OK. It doesn't really matter after a certain point if the arguments being made have to do with external factors like social approval. He's made it difficult to know from an outside observer to know whether or not the woman is genuinely consenting, regardless if it's because mother/father/grandma wagging their finger or other factors.
I think the conversation should really be about how willing should we be to let this kind of material exist even if it presents problems.
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I'd like to see your explanation on this one.
Yeah i think it is kind of a tone deaf song that was written to appeal to westerners to raise money for charity and done in a hamfisted way.
But some of the lyrics are more pointed and spot on.
Like they could have picked a better way than a Christmas song to raise money/awareness for West Africa starvation etc but is it realy worse than the really bad Its cold Outside?
OP
OP
More problematic definitely seems like "Do They Know It's Christmastime?" which is basically the Missionary National Anthem.
But my least favorite Christmas song is def JUST HEAR THAT RING TING TINGSLGDIHWEROIUFHEUIOVHFUHfh3triu23riuhvfffuck offf
But my least favorite Christmas song is def JUST HEAR THAT RING TING TINGSLGDIHWEROIUFHEUIOVHFUHfh3triu23riuhvfffuck offf
That song is a banger and I will hear no further slander of Midge Ure
"Context is important" followed by "to most modern listeners" makes it seem like they don't really care about the context, and this is just a "I want what I want" sort of thing. Which, fair. But be honest about it.
Ah yes once something has been around long enough we can never examine it, question it or look to be better. It just becomes canon and we should never touch it.
Okay cool.
Three and five and this whole thing is kind of stupid as taking lyrics at face value usually is and probably why we got people who play songs like "I'll Be Watching You" or Good Riddance/Time of Your Life at weddings.
EDIT:
The lyrics are rapey when applying a modern context when you're either ignorant or ignore it within context of the performance and artist intent with the era it was written in. Frank Losser wrote it over 70 years ago as a duet with his wife as a closer of their night of entertaining guests, signifying it was time to leave and with Neptune's Daughter where it got popularized, the scandalous nature of unmarried men and woman (more scandalous towards women) spending the night with each other, which in the song at points the roles get reversed. It's also not really a Christmas song.
EDIT:
The lyrics are rapey when applying a modern context when you're either ignorant or ignore it within context of the performance and artist intent with the era it was written in. Frank Losser wrote it over 70 years ago as a duet with his wife as a closer of their night of entertaining guests, signifying it was time to leave and with Neptune's Daughter where it got popularized, the scandalous nature of unmarried men and woman (more scandalous towards women) spending the night with each other, which in the song at points the roles get reversed. It's also not really a Christmas song.
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I mean, you hit it on the head. It's tone deaf and dumb, leaving aside the fact I don't think it's a particularly good song beyond that. You can raise aid for needy causes without producing a song that talks about Africa like it's all one big hellhole.
Not to mention that it isnt even actually a christmas song - so it really has no place to be played in the holidays other than the fact that it indeed does get cold in parts of the Northern Hemisphere.
It is just a bad song.
I guess I should of just said that it is bad for different reasons. At least they were trying to do good. Best intentions, road to hell, best laid plans and all that aside.
They do hint at what a lot of people in West Africa were dealing with it was just done poorly and in that pop music radio format, which isn't always the best. I think the thing that really gets me as adult that remembers when the song came out is that there are no West African musicians. Like geldorf just couldnt get off his ass and do more than the minimum.
It is just a bad song.
I guess I should of just said that it is bad for different reasons. At least they were trying to do good. Best intentions, road to hell, best laid plans and all that aside.
They do hint at what a lot of people in West Africa were dealing with it was just done poorly and in that pop music radio format, which isn't always the best. I think the thing that really gets me as adult that remembers when the song came out is that there are no West African musicians. Like geldorf just couldnt get off his ass and do more than the minimum.
The issue with the 3rd one is that it relies on the interpretation between what the woman is saying and what she really means.
Now don't get me wrong, it's not unlikely that this interpretation in this specific case is absolutely spot on, but it still keeps the idea alive that "no" might just mean "yes"
So with regards to OP's question. I'd say ... 2, 3, 4, 5 ... never 1, really.
Now don't get me wrong, it's not unlikely that this interpretation in this specific case is absolutely spot on, but it still keeps the idea alive that "no" might just mean "yes"
So with regards to OP's question. I'd say ... 2, 3, 4, 5 ... never 1, really.
I mean I guess I agreed with all 5 as I read em. I think the only time I even hear xmas music is if I'm in a store.
This is the first time ive come across something aging negatively not because it was always a problematic piece of trash & its become outdated, but because we are ill informed on the context its written in. Its actually really progressive & harmless.
Anyone think of any other examples of this kinda thing happening?
Anyone think of any other examples of this kinda thing happening?
Last Christmas (I Gave You My Heart) is the word song because if you replace the word "Christmas" with any other holiday, it's no longer a Christmas song. Other than a vague statement regarding "wrapping a gift", there's nothing else in the song that makes it a Christmas song, other than the word itself.
I'd say I fall into a mixture of #3 and #5. Context is important and the song isn't a "rape anthem" even though the lyrics sound really, really weird and creepy nowadays. Personally, though, I just don't like Christmas music all that much, so if others like or dislike it for whatever reason, I'm not all that bothered.
I think the song needs to be sung with a certain amount of charisma which is basically never present. The Rod Stewart/Dolly Parton version is one of the few examples that have it. It sounds like they're portraying a couple who are both into the idea of her staying, and are beating around the bush getting there. When she ad-libs "you really know how to wear a gal down, don't ya", it sounds like she's happy about having been "convinced" the whole time. All her responses during the song sound like she's flirting just as much as he is and they're both trying to get to the same destination.
Most of the time, the song is performed stiffly and with no chemistry between the two parts. There's no subtext that she's on the same page as him, and it comes off as though she's really wanting to leave and he's really begging and pressuring her not to. This one by Barry Manilow and KT Oslin sounds like that to me:
Most of the time, the song is performed stiffly and with no chemistry between the two parts. There's no subtext that she's on the same page as him, and it comes off as though she's really wanting to leave and he's really begging and pressuring her not to. This one by Barry Manilow and KT Oslin sounds like that to me:
Hey yall did you know the 16th century holiday classic Greensleeves is actually about woman, and the man who presumes she is a prostitute???
How's that for your out of context problematic holiday soundtrack???!
How's that for your out of context problematic holiday soundtrack???!
It's a rapey song. She says she wants to go let her go. Kids hear this shit. We teach our kids not to peer pressure people and also not to give in to peer pressure and this song has both.
Thank you! I hate that song
Thank you! I hate that song
The whole thing is fucking stupid if you ask me, the whole planets gone off the fucking deepend over an ancient song.
It's just a flirtatious song whose language of its era hasn't aged well to modern ears.
At least it's not Wonderful Christmastime.
At least it's not Wonderful Christmastime.
Lyrics like "Tonight thank god it's them, instead of you"?
Yep I sure am glad that people in West Africa are living in poverty.
It also frames issues surrounding poverty as "it's just food poverty", when it's really rooted in post-colonialism and continued capitalism. Lack of access to education, healthcare, and sustained warfare.
It's patronising, and it's written to make the listener feel better about themselves for giving a shit around Christmas, rather than to communicate any kind of truth.
They keep trotting it out, even though it's so obviously dated.
Seeing millionaires sing it is particularly galling. Especially tax evaders like Bono.
Edit:
Just found this fantastic twitter thread
https://twitter.com/kelechnekoff/status/940515755342385152
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