Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,984
This may or may not be a stealth Babylon 5 thread but I wish to talk about one of the major arcs in the show and how I believe it handles the rise of fascism with nuance, without patronising its audience and directly confronting agendas we face today and not just in the past.

With that being said, there WILL be spoilers below:

Babylon 5 starts as your typical science fiction show with the trappings of international diplomacy and a vague threat of an ancient species. Before I go on, I know the shadow war is great, but I am simply highlighting the point that that Babylon 5 seems like standard science fiction from the outside looking in. However, in the first episode (not the pilot film) the presidential election is mentioned in passing and ends with the outcome of that election. We also soon learn that there is disgruntled factions within the Earth Alliance, mostly from the Psi-corp (we will come back to them) and Martian colony, and we also learn that some of our major characters were born on mars and have an allegiance to it.

The Psi-corp are a government organisation built to those with telepathic abilities, be it through recruitment, imprisonment or the use of drugs so pacify the population. Through the Psi-Corps we can see how humanity has already institutionalised the discrimination of its own people and they have used those persecutors to oppress their own. The weird thing is that most people seem uneasy with the current situation but oblige out of allegiance to their military uniform.

As for military allegiances, we see the main human characters tipping between their loyalties to Earth against increasing threats to the galaxy and the degrading intergity of the Space UN (I know it isn't called that).

A very brief run down of the choices that you can easily link to our current world is Earth refusing to assist a persecuted alien people from genocide and even aligning with the imperialist oppressors at a later point, the creation of the night watch - a government organisation that is created to snitch on others and send to re-education- and a general distain for poverty. Speaking of which, I always liked the below scene because it mirrors almost EXACTLY how the right-wing talk about homelessness today:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imMGchI1EWY&ab_channel=JerryThompson

I should also say that that this is all done with the backdrop of a presidential assassination, with the vice-president taking his place and instituting increasingly draconian measures.

To avoid this becoming overly wordy, I will skip forward.

Eventually Mars and other colonies revolt againt President Clark, and the regime respond by carpet bombing Mars and other colonies. These attacks prove to be the pivotal act that pushes our core cast to beak away from Earth and declare begrudging independence. Clark dispatches ships the Babylon 5 to depose its leadership and create a military outpost, creating the seeds for a civil war and eventual final confrontation. Before that confrontation can happen, our main protagonist is captured by the Earth government and tortured both physically and mentally in a deeply Orwellian way, which on its own may seem cliché, but when it acts as another building block to what we have seen so far, we can see clearly how far the state has degraded while we focused on a station distanced from the changes.

The reason why this all works is because everything occurs in the background until it doesn't. Our heroes tolerate just enough, out of history and loyalty, that it allows fascism to seep in rather than being tacked at an earlier point. It tells a story where fascism isn't just something we can ignore in anther region because it eventually spreads and has consequences for everyone. Finally, and ost alarmingly, many of the things I mentioned are happening today in many democratic nations. The wheel is turning and we tolerate just enough, and before we know it the fascists control every area of our lives and we've lost any power to combat it.

Anyway, that's me... Got any other examples?
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
24,901
🫡 B5 is the go to for sci-fi, well done. One of the standout moments for me was when Earth look for loyalists and they ask them to wear armbands.
Now as a 13, 14 year old kid this went over my head. But watching it today, it hits like a ton of bricks.

"50 credits extra a week to do what I already do?" and that's how it starts...

PRxA64wl.png


Fight Club had elements? Absolute loyalty.
 
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Soap

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,984
🫡 B5 is the go to for sci-fi, well done. One of the standout moments for me was when Earth look for loyalists and they ask them to wear armbands.
Now as a 13, 14 year old kid this went over my head. But watching it today, it hits like a ton of bricks.

"50 credits extra a week to do what I already do?" and that's how it starts...

PRxA64wl.png
Yeah, exactly.

I also like how their are dissenters to the idea but they STILL do it. Those implementing the policy wash their hands of any misgivings and elect to push all that responsibility onto the government.
 

NextGen

Banned
Aug 5, 2024
1,068
The Man in the High Castle by Philip K. Dick. Amazon show based on it is pretty good too.
 

beat

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,465
The second half of Transmetropolitan has a pretty good through line about the President taking more and more power, mostly in subplots until it becomes the climax of the series. I think Ellis wrote The Smiler as a take on Tony Blair more than any American pol, but it's still apt. Though, as most 'rise of fascism' fiction does, it tends to frame the rise of fascism as "one guy seizing power" more than "a lot of society willingly goes along with it", because most fiction wants to personalize things rather than zoom out to movements in societies.
 

Lihwem

Member
Mar 17, 2020
746
Pretty much, but still a great story.
I'll be honest, I didn't like the book that much. I can see why it's praised as being great, but I didn't resonate with it for some reason. I think the writing with a lot of short sentences put me a bit off. I know that was done to portray the influence of Japan over the world, and that's pretty clever in itself, but I think that annoyed me a bit over the book - probably why haikus are only a few sentences long and not novel-sized hahaha.

Also, book spoiler, the twist towards the end where he goes to that other dimension where Germany didn't win WWII, which is basically our dimension, I think that's pretty smart in retrospect but somehow I didn't get it completely when I read it, so there might be some ego and frustration weighting on my opinion of the book haha.
 

Huskman

Member
Jan 21, 2019
722
I haven't finished it yet, but Tom King's Animal Pound is a modernization of Animal Farm though it's in graphic novel form.
 

Chomp_Shark

Member
Oct 30, 2017
29
Sweden
I also thinks Animal farm is the best answer. But I justed read V for Vendetta again, a story not far from the trutht what we see now rising in Europe.
 

Navidson REC

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,567
It starts in medias res, but arguably Andor provides snapshots of the process (e.g. the changes in sentencing/punishments and arbitrary application of the law) and how resistance can develop in tandem.

God I love that show.

Animal Farm is a fantastic mention.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,595
Which is a form of fascism.
ehhhhhhh not sure on that

Thats the sort of conflation the right loves to make to remove any culpability for right wing extremism. It's where you get extremism in the name of liberty is no vice nonsense.

Fascism is almost always distinct in that while it is always unique in the cultural and political cleavages it manifests around, it is almost always in large part a reactionary movement anchored around anti-leftism


As for the OP, Animal Farm is great when it comes to totalitarianism, but for fascism specifically(which is often take the form of totalitarianism), I am actually struggling to name one that I think does it justice, but that probably speaks more about me than there not being one.

EDIT: The problem I have with people saying Animal Farm is that fascism almost always comes to power two ways: Through the existing political system or a military coup. Animal Farm is explicitly a story about revolutionary totalitarianism and I think that is something that even today, even in this thread, people do not respect enough and that is IMO one reason why the threat of today's fascist parties and leaders seems to be too focused on external revolutionary acts and not focused enough on internal political rises that erode institutions and systems of checks and balances. Its the one thing the focus on Project 2025 has gotten right about what we should be focused on with fascism. Which is not Jan 6th, but a weak right wing party rallying behind a autocratic leader that comes to power through the process and then shuts the door behind them.
 
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Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,280
ehhhhhhh not sure on that

Thats the sort of conflation the right loves to make to remove any culpability for right wing extremism. It's where you get extremism in the name of liberty is no vice nonsense.

Fascism is almost always distinct in that while it is always unique in the cultural and political cleavages it manifests around, it is almost always in large part a reactionary movement anchored around anti-leftism


As for the OP, Animal Farm is great when it comes to totalitarianism, but for fascism specifically(which is often take the form of totalitarianism), I am actually struggling to name one that I think does it justice, but that probably speaks more about me than there not being one.

EDIT: The problem I have with people saying Animal Farm is that fascism almost always comes to power two ways: Through the existing political system or a military coup. Animal Farm is explicitly a story about revolutionary totalitarianism and I think that is something that even today, even in this thread, people do not respect enough and that is IMO one reason why the threat of today's fascist parties and leaders seems to be too focused on external revolutionary acts and not focused enough on internal political rises that erode institutions and systems of checks and balances. Its the one thing the focus on Project 2025 has gotten right about what we should be focused on with fascism. Which is not Jan 6th, but a weak right wing party rallying behind a autocratic leader that comes to power through the process and then shuts the door behind them.
I don't consider it conflation. Totalitarianism can have different flavors. At its root, it's a form of fascism. It just isn't directly hostile and military backed in the same way. It's a difference without distinction to the people living under either boot at the end of the day.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,595
This is actually a good example and cant believe I didn;t think of it when I thought David Simon's adaptation of it was brilliant and one of the better examinations of fascism I've seen. Also severely underrated as far as miniseries go.

One that actually does illustrate how fascists are rarely revolutionaries, they tend to be populists appealing to a right-wing base that rise through weakened political institutions and right-wing parties that come to see their alliance with fascists as a necessity to power. Though I do think the novels original ending ends up being a bit ridiculous and fantastical and like a lot of American fiction weaves in an unearned sense of exceptionalism that pacifies an audiences sense of actual danger to these forces.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,595
I don't consider it conflation. Totalitarianism can have different flavors. At its root, it's a form of fascism. It just isn't directly hostile and military backed in the same way. It's a difference without distinction to the people living under either boot at the end of the day.
No its not

You have the relationship inverted

You are placing fascism at the root and calling things like communist totalitarianism, or totalitarianism itself a branch of the tree of fascism. Thats simply not a healthy way of framing it, nor is it really accurate. Fascism often ends up totalitarian, but not every totalitarian government is fascist. In fact most arent.

And yes the distinction matters cause what you are doing is why people like Trump will casually and without pushback claim they are fighting the forces of communism and fascism and much of America, especielly on the right, dont blink an eye or find the conflation preposterous, which it is. Why you get people conflating Bernie Sanders' populism as being in the same wheelhouse as Trumpism. Why you have a tortured cottage industry of right-wing historians trying to frame Nazism and post WWI fascism as a left-wing movement when fascism is explicitly organized around extreme anti-leftism and is a conservative ideology amongst those in the dominant social and ethnic populations of a country.
 
Mar 21, 2018
2,455
While the book begins with the machine in full swing, I always found the parts describing how Gillead came to be in The Handmaid's Tale chilling in its plausibility.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
65,277
The first couple of Dune novels aren't necessarily about fascism itself but features many of the same facets you'd see in the real world such as the cult of personality, the ensuing crackdown on dissent and centralization of power and so forth. It being presented as the hero's journey in the first novel just makes the ensuing horror hit all the harder.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,357
🫡 B5 is the go to for sci-fi, well done. One of the standout moments for me was when Earth look for loyalists and they ask them to wear armbands.
Now as a 13, 14 year old kid this went over my head. But watching it today, it hits like a ton of bricks.

I seem to recall Straczynski saying that he was worried the armbands were too on-the-nose, but when a lot of the fan reaction he saw was like your reaction at age 14, he realized he made the right choice being anvilcilious.
 

axlp

Member
Jun 25, 2024
276
Stalinism is just not fascism, sorry.

Sinclair Lewis's It Can't Happen Here is often referenced but seldom read these days, which is too bad, it's quite good.

Bertolucci's The Conformist is easily one of the best films about fascism's rise you'll ever watch. Salò as well but that is... not for everyone.

Surprisingly, The Grand Budapest Hotel is one of the better modern US movies on the subject.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,039
You are placing fascism at the root and calling things like communist totalitarianism, or totalitarianism itself a branch of the tree of fascism. Thats simply not a healthy way of framing it, nor is it really accurate. Fascism often ends up totalitarian, but not every totalitarian government is fascist. In fact most arent.

And yes the distinction matters cause what you are doing is why people like Trump will casually and without pushback claim they are fighting the forces of communism and fascism and much of America, especielly on the right, dont blink an eye or find the conflation preposterous, which it is. Why you get people conflating Bernie Sanders' populism as being in the same wheelhouse as Trumpism. Why you have a tortured cottage industry of right-wing historians trying to frame Nazism and post WWI fascism as a left-wing movement when fascism is explicitly organized around extreme anti-leftism and is a conservative ideology amongst those in the dominant social and ethnic populations of a country.

This is an excellent explanation of fascism. Totalitarian, authoritarian governments do not equal fascism.

Stalinism is just not fascism, sorry.

And this is a succinct framing. Animal Farm isn't about fascism, even though what happens in the book (Boxer being a pretty good example, I think) could easily happen IN a fascist rise to power. And did.
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,280
No its not

You have the relationship inverted

You are placing fascism at the root and calling things like communist totalitarianism, or totalitarianism itself a branch of the tree of fascism. Thats simply not a healthy way of framing it, nor is it really accurate. Fascism often ends up totalitarian, but not every totalitarian government is fascist. In fact most arent.

And yes the distinction matters cause what you are doing is why people like Trump will casually and without pushback claim they are fighting the forces of communism and fascism and much of America, especielly on the right, dont blink an eye or find the conflation preposterous, which it is. Why you get people conflating Bernie Sander's populism as being in the same wheelhouse as Trumpism. Why you have a tortured cottage industry of right-wing historians trying to frame Nazism and post WWI fascism as a left-wing movement when fascism is explicitly organized around extreme anti-leftism and is a conservative ideology.
I guess I need to study deeper on the subject.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
65,277
This is an excellent explanation of fascism. Totalitarian, authoritarian governments do not equal fascism.



And this is a succinct framing. Animal Farm isn't about fascism, even though what happens in the book (Boxer being a pretty good example, I think) could easily happen IN a fascist rise to power. And did.

I think what some people are stating is that a lot of these governments whether they be fascists, communists or even something like religion based tend to all turn out rather similar in the end. Its one of those conversations people need to discuss whether they're talking about the forest or the tree's as otherwise everyone starts talking past each other.
 

TissueBox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,103
Urinated States of America
No its not

You have the relationship inverted

You are placing fascism at the root and calling things like communist totalitarianism, or totalitarianism itself a branch of the tree of fascism. Thats simply not a healthy way of framing it, nor is it really accurate. Fascism often ends up totalitarian, but not every totalitarian government is fascist. In fact most arent.

And yes the distinction matters cause what you are doing is why people like Trump will casually and without pushback claim they are fighting the forces of communism and fascism and much of America, especielly on the right, dont blink an eye or find the conflation preposterous, which it is. Why you get people conflating Bernie Sanders' populism as being in the same wheelhouse as Trumpism. Why you have a tortured cottage industry of right-wing historians trying to frame Nazism and post WWI fascism as a left-wing movement when fascism is explicitly organized around extreme anti-leftism and is a conservative ideology amongst those in the dominant social and ethnic populations of a country.
That was about communist totalitarianism.

Oh right. This is true, actually. 'Fascism' has evolved to a catch-all term nowadays but its roots are in Mussolini, not Stalin, after all. Animal Farm dwells more on the other side of the spectrum.

If the question was more about works that illustrate the general rise of extremism and radicalism and the mosaic of systemic hypocrisies that emerge in its wake, which can also be applied to the machinations of movements such as fascism, true fascism, then yes, Animal Farm would more than qualify.

(And can still indeed impart a few valuable lessons to any society in an ideological chokehold.)
 
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Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,907
I think it fumbles the execution of its ideas but, it does have a really solid theory of how fascism takes hold.
The one thing to me is that it downplays the importance of othering a marginalized group. It gets there at the end when Palpatine blames the Jedi and everyone rallies around anti-Jedi sentiment, but real fascism would be more deeply rooted in racism and xenophobia than the prequels portray.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,039
I think what some people are stating is that a lot of these governments whether they be fascists, communists or even something like religion based tend to all turn out rather similar in the end. Its one of those conversations people need to discuss whether they're talking about the forest or the tree's as otherwise everyone starts talking past each other.

I think this is an important thing to say and be cognizant of, for sure. Animal Farm itself communicates that in the end, the pigs are just like the humans, power corrupted them just like it does everyone.

In this case I think it's important to distinguish between the two since a right wing talking point literally is "well the nazi's were socialists" and "socialism" is thrown around a term that makes even people on the left bristle. You have the House of Representatives in 2023 passing a resolution on the horrors of socialism that a LOT of Dems voted for. The left gets demonized far more than the right, and lumping in a story of how a leftist revolution goes horribly wrong as a matter of course helps feed the narrative (not intentionally in this thread, I believe) that leftism is horrible, all while the right is trying to legislate folks out of existence.
 
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Soap

Soap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,984
Oh, I also forgot to mention that Years and Years is great up until the rushed ending. Everything leading up to the the final 30 minutes or so is a really good way of lambasting a Katie Hopkins style populist and what it would mean if they had any power.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,595
I think what some people are stating is that a lot of these governments whether they be fascists, communists or even something like religion based tend to all turn out rather similar in the end. Its one of those conversations people need to discuss whether they're talking about the forest or the tree's as otherwise everyone starts talking past each other.
Sure, but failing to understand the distinctions and very real differences leads to the sort of broken immune system to the current rise of fascism we see in places like America and parts of Europe.

Where Americans are completely braindead about authoritarian or illiberal governance is in every facet unless it takes the form of the Star Wars Empire end state that everyone can agree is bad. Often done in the sort of Alex Garland way where context and reality-rooted causation is deliberately excised from the project and the result is a half of America that doesn't bat an eye at interpreting "The Antifa Massacre" as an act of aggression by ANTIFA and sees no issue with that sort of deliberate obfuscation device to focus on the thing we all know is already bad.

I mean wouldn't it be great if we could avoid such a faith as the end result we all agree is bad? Yes it would, thats why we need to understand why fascism and communism are not interchangeable and why Bernie Sanders and Trump are not cut from the same populist cloth. Why it's silly to look at Stalinism and scream fascism or see people speak of economic revolution and evoke Hitler. Why it's absurd that right wingers call the expansion of LGBTQ rights or prosecuting Trump as reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Why when people say Trump and Project 2025 is a threat to democracy they are often flat footed or struggle to envision a version of fascism that looks more like Hungary or Louisiana under a Huey Long for rich white people than the Empire from Star Wars....and why neither of them feels very real to a vast majority of people, even ones not allied with Trump. Where "Never Again" is just an empty slogan without any real actionable meaning to most people, as we see as so many of those lessons are blatantly ignored in places like Gaza.

We can all agree we don't want an America thats depicted in the film Civl War, but hard to avoid that when no one cares to develop the accurate language and immune system to recognize it correctly and reject it before we get to that end state.
 
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Navidson REC

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,567
ehhhhhhh not sure on that

Thats the sort of conflation the right loves to make to remove any culpability for right wing extremism. It's where you get extremism in the name of liberty is no vice nonsense.

Fascism is almost always distinct in that while it is always unique in the cultural and political cleavages it manifests around, it is almost always in large part a reactionary movement anchored around anti-leftism


As for the OP, Animal Farm is great when it comes to totalitarianism, but for fascism specifically(which is often take the form of totalitarianism), I am actually struggling to name one that I think does it justice, but that probably speaks more about me than there not being one.

EDIT: The problem I have with people saying Animal Farm is that fascism almost always comes to power two ways: Through the existing political system or a military coup. Animal Farm is explicitly a story about revolutionary totalitarianism and I think that is something that even today, even in this thread, people do not respect enough and that is IMO one reason why the threat of today's fascist parties and leaders seems to be too focused on external revolutionary acts and not focused enough on internal political rises that erode institutions and systems of checks and balances. Its the one thing the focus on Project 2025 has gotten right about what we should be focused on with fascism. Which is not Jan 6th, but a weak right wing party rallying behind a autocratic leader that comes to power through the process and then shuts the door behind them.
Thank you for these insightful and measured posts (as usual). I have to agree with you that my application of the term was not precise enough. You raise very important points.
 

KingK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,037
Not exactly the start/rise, but Andor is genuinely one of the best fictional examinations of fascism out there. The fascism had already begun by then, but the show expertly portrays the day to day under the "early years" of a fascist regime as it further entrenches itself and sheds the remaining vestiges of the liberal democracy it originated from. Best Star Wars ever made, and probably the most blatantly anti-fascist piece of mainstream/mass market fiction out there. I'm still surprised Disney allowed it to exist. One of my favorite shows ever.

Animal Farm is great, but Nola is correct in pointing out the important distinction that it's not really fascism. Fascism is a more distinct form of authoritarianism and I don't think we should lump them all together, as they have different contexts in how they manifest to begin with (even if the end state has many similarities).

The prequel trilogy.
Seriously, this might be one of the better answers. Incredibly flawed execution, but the actual plot points and storyline are a pretty solid portrayal of the rise of fascism within a democratic framework.

Most importantly, it leads into Andor.

It starts in medias res, but arguably Andor provides snapshots of the process (e.g. the changes in sentencing/punishments and arbitrary application of the law) and how resistance can develop in tandem.

God I love that show.
Yep, Andor gets so, so much right about this subject and goes so much harder than I would have ever expected from a Disney funded thing.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,900
The one thing to me is that it downplays the importance of othering a marginalized group. It gets there at the end when Palpatine blames the Jedi and everyone rallies around anti-Jedi sentiment, but real fascism would be more deeply rooted in racism and xenophobia than the prequels portray.
While it's not emphasised enough, the separatists are largely alien denomination, and the fact they are so demonised and actually right in that democracy has eroded in the republic is a plot point in the prequels but I would say it's better portrayed in other media rather than the films like for example the novel of Revenge of the Sith or the clone wars tv series
 

grang

Member
Nov 13, 2017
11,442
ehhhhhhh not sure on that

Thats the sort of conflation the right loves to make to remove any culpability for right wing extremism. It's where you get extremism in the name of liberty is no vice nonsense.

Fascism is almost always distinct in that while it is always unique in the cultural and political cleavages it manifests around, it is almost always in large part a reactionary movement anchored around anti-leftism


As for the OP, Animal Farm is great when it comes to totalitarianism, but for fascism specifically(which is often take the form of totalitarianism), I am actually struggling to name one that I think does it justice, but that probably speaks more about me than there not being one.

EDIT: The problem I have with people saying Animal Farm is that fascism almost always comes to power two ways: Through the existing political system or a military coup. Animal Farm is explicitly a story about revolutionary totalitarianism and I think that is something that even today, even in this thread, people do not respect enough and that is IMO one reason why the threat of today's fascist parties and leaders seems to be too focused on external revolutionary acts and not focused enough on internal political rises that erode institutions and systems of checks and balances. Its the one thing the focus on Project 2025 has gotten right about what we should be focused on with fascism. Which is not Jan 6th, but a weak right wing party rallying behind a autocratic leader that comes to power through the process and then shuts the door behind them.

No its not

You have the relationship inverted

You are placing fascism at the root and calling things like communist totalitarianism, or totalitarianism itself a branch of the tree of fascism. Thats simply not a healthy way of framing it, nor is it really accurate. Fascism often ends up totalitarian, but not every totalitarian government is fascist. In fact most arent.

And yes the distinction matters cause what you are doing is why people like Trump will casually and without pushback claim they are fighting the forces of communism and fascism and much of America, especielly on the right, dont blink an eye or find the conflation preposterous, which it is. Why you get people conflating Bernie Sanders' populism as being in the same wheelhouse as Trumpism. Why you have a tortured cottage industry of right-wing historians trying to frame Nazism and post WWI fascism as a left-wing movement when fascism is explicitly organized around extreme anti-leftism and is a conservative ideology amongst those in the dominant social and ethnic populations of a country.

Sure, but failing to understand the distinctions and very real differences leads to the sort of broken immune system to the current rise of fascism we see in places like America and parts of Europe.

Where Americans are completely braindead about authoritarian or illiberal governance is in every facet unless it takes the form of the Star Wars Empire end state that everyone can agree is bad. Often done in the sort of Alex Garland way where context and reality-rooted causation is deliberately excised from the project and the result is a half of America that doesn't bat an eye at interpreting "The Antifa Massacre" as an act of aggression by ANTIFA and sees no issue with that sort of deliberate obfuscation device to focus on the thing we all know is already bad.

I mean wouldn't it be great if we could avoid such a faith as the end result we all agree is bad? Yes it would, thats why we need to understand why fascism and communism are not interchangeable and why Bernie Sanders and Trump are not cut from the same populist cloth. Why it's silly to look at Stalinism and scream fascism or see people speak of economic revolution and evoke Hitler. Why it's absurd that right wingers call the expansion of LGBTQ rights or prosecuting Trump as reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Why when people say Trump and Project 2025 is a threat to democracy they are often flat footed or struggle to envision a version of fascism that looks more like Hungary or Louisiana under a Huey Long for rich white people than the Empire from Star Wars....and why neither of them feels very real to a vast majority of people, even ones not allied with Trump. Where "Never Again" is just an empty slogan without any real actionable meaning to most people, as we see as so many of those lessons are blatantly ignored in places like Gaza.

We can all agree we don't want an America thats depicted in the film Civl War, but hard to avoid that when no one cares to develop the accurate language and immune system to recognize it correctly and reject it before we get to that end state.
Thanks for these posts, I learned something today