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What do people think of Harley Quinn being an Anti-Hero

PhoenixAKG

PhoenixAKG

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So DC has recently been trying to establish Harley Quinn as Deadpool like Anti-Hero. What are thoughts on this. I'm not sure how I feel about this as being the Joker's henchwoman for so long, she has a lot of crimes and blood on her hands, and I'm not sure if they can establish it in a way that doesn't make it feel like she's getting of scott free. I think Injustice is the most glaring example of this as despite helping the Joker murder Lois, Superman's unborn child, and basically EVERYONE in Metropolis she's more or less accepted by Batman's side with no issues despite playing a huge role in causing the problem in Injustice in the first place. In her ending she JOINS THE JUSTICE LEAGUE of all things. I mean she should at least in be jail or something.
 

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PlanetSmasher

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Never been a fan of it. At least in her own show they make it clear she's not a hero even after she breaks away from Joker.

But this constant push to sanitize her and make her into a heroine feels bizarre, like DC is so desperate for a distinct female character they'll use whatever they can find.
 
Xaszatm

Xaszatm

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Because comics are like wrestling in which you're supposed to forget about everything 6 months later. Especially in the Batman stuff where villains are supposed to be criminally insane and need to be treated. Really only the Joker is the one that's utterly irredeemable. Everyone else runs on the wrestling logic.
 
MrZaha

MrZaha

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I think she should be in arkham asylum serving her sentence since shes insane and all. I doubt shes served her sentence and the doctors have found her competent to be released.
 

Min

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Villains have been re-interpreted as anti-heroes in every generation. It doesn't bother me that there are artists who want to reinterpret the old text and redefine her character for a modern audience.
 
Jersey_Tom

Jersey_Tom

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I wouldn't take Injustice to be a huge part of her canon persona.

But yes, the general deal with Harley basically becoming a happy-go-lucky anti-hero is a bit off-putting. And she doesn't even have the base kind of morals a guy like Wade Wilson does who tries to not involve children in anything he does. Harley for instance helped convince a bunch of kids to murder their captors. She goes through with a plan to murder a bunch of kids and adults by activating bombs in video game systems that were given out to them.

The latter act alone should be considered irredeemable which the fact that she's at times shown alongside the Justice League or has positioning in "group photo" pics as being some sort of a hero is really jarring.

Harley is a villain leading on chaotic neutral. She shouldn't be held up as a potential "reformed" villain, ala Catwoman.
 

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Oct 26, 2017
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Eh, I don't mind. I'm more in it for the relationships that might be more of the same if she stayed the same, at least this way it can go in different directions. Jarring, yes but I can roll with it. I'm not super into her character or others so a very loose take.
 
Digital Dinosaur

Digital Dinosaur

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Harley Quinn by design almost kind of HAS to evolve into an anti-hero every time her story is told. Her origin is predicated on being someone who gets mindfucked by the Joker and turned into a psycho hench willing to go along with murder, while being constantly abused.

If she stayed that way, the character would becoming troubling in the long run. Harley reforming to some degree, is required to show that she understands the Joker was responsible for brainwashing her into total murderous nihilism and she wants to unscrew her mind.

Also if Batman is to have any influence on his foes, Harley is a prime candidate for being affected by Batman's sincere desire to reform and help the villains.
 
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

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Sad thing is, episodes like Harley's Holiday in BTAS show she has the potential to reform and is more misguided
shame TAS did nothing with that
 
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

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Why do people always ask this about Harley Quinn, yet not about other characters like Vegeta for example
 
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

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DiipuSurotu said:
Why do people always ask this about Harley Quinn, yet not about other characters like Vegeta for example
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I mean, first, death isn't taken as seriously in Dragonball and a more fantastical approach
Also, Vegeta has recently acknowledged his sins and has paid for them such as with Majin talk to Piccolo and in DB Super manga, he even says he''s going to hell recently
 
KoopaTheCasual

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DiipuSurotu said:
Why do people always ask this about Harley Quinn, yet not about other characters like Vegeta for example
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Because anyone engaged in an earnest discussion on Vegeta's 'redemption' understands he's still an awful person and that Dragon Ball characters are paper thin, not worth digging into meta-narrative discourse over.

Shonen characters are usually held to a much lower standard.

If you're implying sexism, there's probably some of that too.
 
Weiss

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It's fine in the comics because you can just pretend she wasn't an accessory to all of Joker's crimes. You're supposed to care more about the larger than life adventures than, like, her bodycount.

Injustice is full on bullshit enjoyed by bullshitters.
 
HardTimesFamilyPride

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Kai Dracon said:
Harley Quinn by design almost kind of HAS to evolve into an anti-hero every time her story is told. Her origin is predicated on being someone who gets mindfucked by the Joker and turned into a psycho hench willing to go along with murder, while being constantly abused.

If she stayed that way, the character would becoming troubling in the long run. Harley reforming to some degree, is required to show that she understands the Joker was responsible for brainwashing her into total murderous nihilism and she wants to unscrew her mind.

Also if Batman is to have any influence on his foes, Harley is a prime candidate for being affected by Batman's sincere desire to reform and help the villains.
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This is very well put.
 
Xaszatm

Xaszatm

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Also to be fair every Batman villain is pushed as being on the verge of redemption. Hell even The Joker is put on this role at times. The Killing Joke was all about trying to redeem the Joker even after he did something horrible (it's also why people were so iffy on Batgirl's role just being a victim in it than vanishing from the plot). And, to be fair, in most continuities the villains do try and reform to varying degrees of success. Really nowdays only the joker is portrayed as irredeemable.
 
grand

grand

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It's not that crazy. Harley was never portrayed as super evil in her debut and the animated series always showed her as being manipulated & in an abusive relationship. Harley joining the anti-hero group follows with her origins and supports Batman's belief in redemption.
 
EvilChameleon

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I would be real interested in seeing what crimes the Harley Quinn from "Batman & Harley Quinn" did, because by the end of that movie, she's hosting a Dr.Phil/Wipeout TV show.
 

JDSN

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I think it's a nice evolution to the character, although the tv show goes out of its way to show she is a horrible supervillian going through some shit.
 
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

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KoopaTheCasual said:
Because anyone engaged in an earnest discussion on Vegeta's 'redemption' understands he's still an awful person and that Dragon Ball characters are paper thin, not worth digging into meta-narrative discourse over.

Shonen characters are usually held to a much lower standard.

If you're implying sexism, there's probably some of that too.
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Yeah, there is some sexism in a lot of cases but it's not always the case I always see folks critique the likes of Mayuri and Orochimaru being redeemed
 
jph139

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I think it's a good thing. She's been a sympathetic characters since the BTAS days and always seemed to dance on the edge of redemption (Harley's Holiday, Harley and Ivy, Mad Love). Like, even in Return of the Joker you see that she ends up a normal old lady. From the start it was obviously that, deep down, she's not a bad person.

You can trot out all sort of stuff that she'd done as a "bad guy," but at the end of the day, she's a fictional character. Who she is, what she does, what she stands for, that's all malleable. I think it's good to have characters that have made bad choices, that have suffered abuse, but still come out the other end as a force for good and a person worth rooting for.

In particular I know a lot of women (like my younger sister) who don't really have much interest in traditional "superhero" type characters, but really love Harley, and not just for superficial reasons. There's not many female characters like her in media, particularly superhero media.
 
Spork4000

Spork4000

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DragonSJG said:
Yeah, there is some sexism in a lot of cases but it's not always the case I always see folks critique the likes of Mayuri and Orochimaru being redeemed
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not to mention the first post in this thread.

my opinion, DC has redeemed characters who have done worse things, so why not. Hell, Deathstroke is a pedophile and they try to redeem him all the time.
 
Illusion

Illusion

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For the writing side of her character, its giving Harley a chance to redeem herself from since she is coming out of a abusive relationship. Still a criminal, but she starts doing good things for others to help herself.

She does deserve jail time, but when has prison helped anyone, ever? Prison isn't there to reform people its to incarcerate them. And she has done time in many stories.

Harley is just a product of telling people you can struggle leaving your abusive relationship. You can succeed. You can continue to be yourself on the road of recovery. Not everything you did is forgiven but that doesn't stop you from being a better person tomorrow. Be wacky. Be fun. And you will find love again.
 
Platy

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I mean she is a batman villain, by definition they all can be anti heroes xD

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David J Prokopetz

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I specially liked more when The Riddler became an anti-hero in the Gotham TV show but Harley is cool too i guess

Chaotic good =P
 
OP
OP
PhoenixAKG

PhoenixAKG

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jph139 said:
I think it's a good thing. She's been a sympathetic characters since the BTAS days and always seemed to dance on the edge of redemption (Harley's Holiday, Harley and Ivy, Mad Love). Like, even in Return of the Joker you see that she ends up a normal old lady. From the start it was obviously that, deep down, she's not a bad person.

You can trot out all sort of stuff that she'd done as a "bad guy," but at the end of the day, she's a fictional character. Who she is, what she does, what she stands for, that's all malleable. I think it's good to have characters that have made bad choices, that have suffered abuse, but still come out the other end as a force for good and a person worth rooting for.

In particular I know a lot of women (like my younger sister) who don't really have much interest in traditional "superhero" type characters, but really love Harley, and not just for superficial reasons. There's not many female characters like her in media, particularly superhero media.
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Okay TBH she shouldn't have gotten off scott-free in Return of the Joker after she helped the Joker torture Tim Drake into insanity. Now THAT is ridiculous.
 
Verelios

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Harley has always appeared to do the most vile shit not for the act like Joker but to get validation from someone else. On the flip side, she's purposely killed a lot of kids. A lot.

I'm not sure there's a way back from what she's done to be framed as an anti-hero.
 
Eoin

Eoin

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Oct 27, 2017
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Since this appears to be mostly about Injustice, then maybe it's worth noting that Harley is only one of many characters to get redeemed in that series. Green Lantern, Flash and Catwoman all have redemption arcs, and although Catwoman wasn't really in a central position within the Regime, Green Lantern and Flash most definitely were.

Harley, just to contrast a little, has a redemption arc that starts much earlier, with lots of it taking place within the comics, before the events of the first game, which is why in the first game, she's on Batman's side right from the start. She's momentarily taken in by Joker, but gets over him before the game's story ends, and throughout the game, she's fighting against the murderous Regime. The same one in which Green Lantern and Flash hold senior positions.

So if you want to talk about redemption arcs in Injustice, well, I don't think Harley's is anywhere close to the most glaring.
 
Cipher Peon

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Better stories have come out of her being an anti hero than her being a villain.

I am happy with it.
 
lorddarkflare

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Because the list of female anti-heros is actually pretty small. Hell the list of anti-heroes worth a shit is pretty small.

Also, she is very popular with women and young girls. Especially for the latter, anti-hero fits better when it comes to merchandising.
 
Crossing Eden

Crossing Eden

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Oct 26, 2017
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There have been good things done with the character, OP mentioned Injustice but they do a decent job not glossing over her trauma imo



and bad things, like the Batman and Harley Quinn film where the story is pretty awful.
 
sredgrin

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It's a medium that sags under the weight of its own canon and different authorships. Like, if we try to be too focused on this, I'd wager a lot "good" characters have committed atrocities like the Harley Quinn bombing kids thing, and unless it's the same writer trying to do the redeeming, I don't really have an issue with different interpretations of the character conflicting, especially for characters with 20+ years and multiple universe resets to deal with.

Also, one of Injustice's central hooks is about the flip flopping of various characters, so it's hard to take it too literally.
 
Garlador

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Xaszatm said:
Hell, even BTAS pushed that Harley was redeemable, as Mad Love and Harley's Holiday showed.
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As someone who advocates strongly for people who have been caught up in toxic relationships, having a redemption arc for Harley that has her recover from the Joker's abuse and establish herself as her own person is something I very much enjoy, in comics, games, cartoons, or movies.
 
Aly

Aly

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I like it when its done well. When its done poorly, it makes her insufferable. Like Injustice, where she should be under the jail cell.
 
Pau

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I don't enjoy her as a character, but I don't think making her an anti-hero is impossible or even particularly hard. Characters' backstories get rebooted and changed all the time. I don't think we'd really be losing anything in the change from villain to anti-hero. But I also generally want most Batman villains to be retired or move on in some way.
 
Aly

Aly

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Pau said:
I don't enjoy her as a character, but I don't think making her an anti-hero is impossible or even particularly hard. Characters' backstories get rebooted and changed all the time. I don't think we'd really be losing anything in the change from villain to anti-hero. But I also generally want most Batman villains to be retired or move on in some way.
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This reminds me though, how many actual majo rfemale Batman villains are there now? Harley is an anti-hero, so is Catwoman and Ivy depending on the day of the week. Talia is all over the place. I can't really think of any other major ones.
 
CoolestSpot

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Garlador said:
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As someone who advocates strongly for people who have been caught up in toxic relationships, having a redemption arc for Harley that has her recover from the Joker's abuse and establish herself as her own person is something I very much enjoy, in comics, games, cartoons, or movies.
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See my issue with it is...why would she be Harley Quinn? Like in BTAS timeline she just becomes normal and drops the joker and his effect on her and becomes her own person. But the character, if truly out of Joker's grasp over her, would make her own identity for herself and become a anti-hero and such. The fact she kind of remains the same but more on palatable for hero tales without any change is strange to me and makes me instantly against it, because her identity was one MADE IN ABUSE.
 
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