US PoliEra 2024 |OT 1| Doom Eternal
- Thread starter SSF1991
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Considering their other forums are worse, they probably don't care too much
I feel bad for Plagiarism having to come in here and debase themselves for other admins and mods.
Hi. Long time lurker, first time poster! I don't usually contribute to online discussions due to anxiety, but I wanted to at least do so while I know the thread is still here.
I've followed discussions from this community since the threads at the old place, and the discourse of that community was helpful in figuring out my own political beliefs during 2015 and 2016. I know the community today is a pretty different set of people, but I'm still grateful to have access to discussions here. Over the years, you and others like you have helped me to understand how America's systems are flawed and what can be done to press actively for progress to a better system. Moreover, these threads have been important to understanding how important that progress is and how to pursue change while mitigating harm to groups that are already marginalized. I became a better, more informed person thanks to people in PoliEra (and, I guess, PoliGaf long ago).
I know folks here have read similar messages from at least a couple dozen or so lurkers in the past year, but throw mine on the pile, too. The conversations here have an audience beyond the active posters in the thread, and they've been extremely helpful to some of us out there. Thanks very much to the posters who have aggregated news, offered insight, challenged and tested the credibility of sources, and debated issues even when it feels risky to do so.
As a lurker, I don't feel I have much of a place to comment on site moderation, but I can't just totally ignore the matter. Honestly, strict moderation is one of the only reasons I've followed communities on Era, because I'm sick and tired of loosely moderated sites inevitably becoming a haven for bigots and bad-faith actors. I respect the vast majority of the work the moderation team does on this site, and I've seen how badly communities can spiral without work like that. However, it's obvious that the moderation has (at the very least) created the perception of uneven enforcement or biased treatment across communities here.
I know it must be difficult to enforce anything to prevent ban-baiting and the like, because that style of inflammatory posting is intentionally vague. To an outsider, though, a lack of enforcement (or disproportionate enforcement) certainly creates the appearance that posters can target and antagonize this community without any accountability. Incidents like this one today would always create upheaval in any circumstances, but a history of apparently uneven moderation makes this look like a pattern of uneven enforcement. I don't mean to definitively assert that there is unfair or uneven treatment, but there's a self-evident belief of that in the community that has to be addressed clearly.
Also, I know it's difficult for one person to communicate a team's decision, and I know plagiarize has had to walk a similar tightrope in the AEW community threads at times (and I appreciate their contributions to those, for what it's worth). I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on their posts (as of the time I'm typing this anyway, things keep moving fast here), because the people most directly involved in the decisions aren't communicating or clarifying their positions directly.
I don't know what can be done to establish and build trust, but I hope the moderation team will work to establish clearer rules and impartial enforcement. Unless the community believes moderators are impartial and acting in good faith, I don't see how open discourse will ever be possible here.
(I won't even comment on the matter of off-site activity. I typed the rest of this up early last night before that was even in current discussion. I can't imagine it makes things easier for anyone. The situation's only continued to escalate, and I increasingly feel there's nothing more meaningful I've got to add to the discourse on it.)
I was tempted to post when the new PoliEra Discord was made last year and brought out several other lurkers, but I didn't do it before the situation had (somewhat) calmed down. I haven't wanted to post these thoughts since then, because I didn't want to risk a thread derail dredging up old issues or tension in the community. Since this is going on again, the time seemed right to at least say thanks to the users who are left in this community and wish folks well during the election season ahead.
I won't post much in the future, because anxiety about social engagement is what it is. It took me an embarrassingly long time to put this one post together.
I sincerely appreciate those who do post here, though. It seems important to at least say that much. I hope this community can survive, and I hope folks find a welcome alternative if it can't. I'd be glad to at least pop into the Discord, too, if new folks are still welcome there. Thanks all! (And good luck)
I've followed discussions from this community since the threads at the old place, and the discourse of that community was helpful in figuring out my own political beliefs during 2015 and 2016. I know the community today is a pretty different set of people, but I'm still grateful to have access to discussions here. Over the years, you and others like you have helped me to understand how America's systems are flawed and what can be done to press actively for progress to a better system. Moreover, these threads have been important to understanding how important that progress is and how to pursue change while mitigating harm to groups that are already marginalized. I became a better, more informed person thanks to people in PoliEra (and, I guess, PoliGaf long ago).
I know folks here have read similar messages from at least a couple dozen or so lurkers in the past year, but throw mine on the pile, too. The conversations here have an audience beyond the active posters in the thread, and they've been extremely helpful to some of us out there. Thanks very much to the posters who have aggregated news, offered insight, challenged and tested the credibility of sources, and debated issues even when it feels risky to do so.
As a lurker, I don't feel I have much of a place to comment on site moderation, but I can't just totally ignore the matter. Honestly, strict moderation is one of the only reasons I've followed communities on Era, because I'm sick and tired of loosely moderated sites inevitably becoming a haven for bigots and bad-faith actors. I respect the vast majority of the work the moderation team does on this site, and I've seen how badly communities can spiral without work like that. However, it's obvious that the moderation has (at the very least) created the perception of uneven enforcement or biased treatment across communities here.
I know it must be difficult to enforce anything to prevent ban-baiting and the like, because that style of inflammatory posting is intentionally vague. To an outsider, though, a lack of enforcement (or disproportionate enforcement) certainly creates the appearance that posters can target and antagonize this community without any accountability. Incidents like this one today would always create upheaval in any circumstances, but a history of apparently uneven moderation makes this look like a pattern of uneven enforcement. I don't mean to definitively assert that there is unfair or uneven treatment, but there's a self-evident belief of that in the community that has to be addressed clearly.
Also, I know it's difficult for one person to communicate a team's decision, and I know plagiarize has had to walk a similar tightrope in the AEW community threads at times (and I appreciate their contributions to those, for what it's worth). I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on their posts (as of the time I'm typing this anyway, things keep moving fast here), because the people most directly involved in the decisions aren't communicating or clarifying their positions directly.
I don't know what can be done to establish and build trust, but I hope the moderation team will work to establish clearer rules and impartial enforcement. Unless the community believes moderators are impartial and acting in good faith, I don't see how open discourse will ever be possible here.
(I won't even comment on the matter of off-site activity. I typed the rest of this up early last night before that was even in current discussion. I can't imagine it makes things easier for anyone. The situation's only continued to escalate, and I increasingly feel there's nothing more meaningful I've got to add to the discourse on it.)
I was tempted to post when the new PoliEra Discord was made last year and brought out several other lurkers, but I didn't do it before the situation had (somewhat) calmed down. I haven't wanted to post these thoughts since then, because I didn't want to risk a thread derail dredging up old issues or tension in the community. Since this is going on again, the time seemed right to at least say thanks to the users who are left in this community and wish folks well during the election season ahead.
I won't post much in the future, because anxiety about social engagement is what it is. It took me an embarrassingly long time to put this one post together.
I sincerely appreciate those who do post here, though. It seems important to at least say that much. I hope this community can survive, and I hope folks find a welcome alternative if it can't. I'd be glad to at least pop into the Discord, too, if new folks are still welcome there. Thanks all! (And good luck)
Let's not remove their agency. They don't have to do this; they're doing it because they really think they (and the rest of the mod/admin team) have a good point here and made the right call. We're just too thick to understand and appreciate it.
Why do you think that matters?
Before knowing about the report: There's no evidence of Hamas systematizing rape of prisoners so to suggest that Hamas is engaging in sex slavery is over the line.
After knowing about the report: There's still no evidence of Hamas systematizing rape of prisoners so to suggest that Hamas is engaging in sex slavery is still over the line.
A UN report saying that some of the captives have been raped doesn't change that.
It's part of the system if it's actually part of the system and not merely the behavior of a single individual who's part of that system not backed by the rest of that system. Now, if incidents are widespread or there's patterns across a smaller number of incidents, then we can start talking about it being part of the system, absolutely. But to say, for example, The US Penal System Engages In Organ Trafficking because there's been two incidents on opposite sides of the country over 5 years where a guard stole a prisoner's kidney is a wide fucking generalization.
A very well thought out and written post, and I hope you will consider continuing to post here in the future (if this community survives this).
Since it was ignored last time:
Definition of SEX SLAVE
someone held captive and forced to perform sexual acts usually under threat of violence and often for the purposes of commercial prostitution : slave… See the full definitionwww.merriam-webster.com
This whole thing reminds me of the Dean on Community not wanting to use the term "race riot" and going with "race kerfuffle" instead.
I guess we'll call these people "frequent victims of non-consensual intercourse"
Yeah, I would've had the same reaction (to try) if I saw the people who made a call totally shirking the explanation of it, it's in my nature. But since the argument is just silly, it was only going to go this way.
Cerium sits in his mansion on a lavish red cushioned chair. He's on his laptop, reviewing his stock portfolios.
For a brief moment, he shivers, suddenly cold. He looks up from the screen, and around the room.
There are no windows open, no doors. The fireplace is alit and radiating heat.
But it doesn't matter. The sensation is gone. Warmth sets in again.
It was probably just a crack in a wall or window somewhere. Perhaps he'll have someone come give the place a look in a few days.
The moment already leaving his mind, not even fit to be a memory, he returns to the task at hand.
So, unless it's systematic, no one can be a sex slave?
Of course they can. The problem is in the generalization to the larger group. If a prison guard keeps a sex slave, then they're being kept by that prison guard and it would be an unacceptable generalization to say, well that prison guard is part of the US Penal System and so we can generalize out from "this prison guard is engaging in sex slavery" to "the entire prison system is engaging in sex slavery".
Maybe I need to tie this to something that folks in the thread have demonstrated where they're aware of the distinction between the two, so lets say it's the difference between charging that a nation of mostly Jewish people is engaged in genocide versus charging that Jewish people are engaged in genocide.
Because if they weren't aware of the report to begin with, they shouldn't have had a fucking opinion!
What if it happens hundreds of thousands of times across the US penal system? Is that a systematic issue?
Yep, you bet it is. The UN report you're talking about didn't find anything widespread like that.
I'm not saying that rapes didn't happen, or that those rapes aren't a problem, I'm saying that there's no evidence that the behavior was widespread enough to be a systematic or formalized problem in the way that the original generalization suggests.
Or, another comparison would be say someone questioned whether Netanyahu's government was engaging in genocide on the Gaza Strip by saying "actually, genocide means something else!" How do you think that would go over here?
Why does the US prison system or Hamas for that matter need a charitable reading? Who was ever talking about US prisons in the first place?
Also, the US prison system absolutely has a widespread and essentially accepted issue with sexual violence and sex slavery. I mean, the US prison system explicitly allows for slavery- like it's completely legal and constitutional to allow for slavery in US prisons. Is the rape on top of that hard to believe? Even if plenty of research and articles weren't available on the matter that talk about sexual slavery in US prisons?
Blergh, just like last election... I always this thread always was a good place to get information on the major developments in US politics (and more polls and talking about polls than atoms in the universe 🤣) for non-US members , since Off Topic threads are full of flaming hot™ takes and hostility, not a lot of discussion. Not perfect, especially since over the years culls devastated both the overall activity and the diversity of viewpoints, but a whole lot better than the rest of the site.
I came here because I watched the Biden speech yesterday and felt slightly less anxious about Trump getting back into office and wanted to talk about it, since it even made my mother comment on being surprised about Biden not sounding old (...yeah, that talking point spread worldwide, totally not weaponised disinformation spread by some state...). And now this. Again.
Like, I'm German, with both card carrying NSDAP capital-N NAZI as well as people helping Jewish people emmigrate/flee (as persecution ramped up) ancestry, so my take on the whole miserable Israel-Palastine situation is complicated on a whole different level when discussing it, both IRL and online. My government is clearly on the wrong side of history with the excuse of being on the wrong side historically...yet I actually meet people from West Bank and Gaza weekly or daily, working with asylum seekers/refugees (mostly from Khan Younis, go on, check out what it was like in their giant refugee camp BEFORE the increase in violence last year...). I haven't joined any thread about the current escalation because the downright embarrassing and worrying takes infest most other however marginally related topics.
Wasn't it enough that people stanned the fucking HOUTHIS in their zeal to attack people they deem to have the wrong opinion, in this case members of this message board?! Not gonna lie, some, not all, but definitely some of the shit posted by people in Off Topic feels like trying to score internet points by being morally superior and/or owning people. It's honestly sickening at times. Not every issue has two sides, some topics are actually complex and might require more thought than what's often on display. Low effort shit posts are fun and can relieve stress, so dunk on some creepy GOP ghoul or whatever, I know I can't be arsed to do more most of the time, yet here I am, so annoyed that I typed more than the rest of my posts this year combined, probably. If you can't put in the mental effort and nuance to actually talk about complex issues with very real human suffering and interact with other posters above petty insults and/or a level of (reciprocal) accusations of enabling or supporting genocide, war crimes, terrorism or whatever for not agreeing with your specific take... maybe don't hit "post reply".
And I fucking DESPISE what the IDF and other like illegally land-taking settlers are doing! I DESPISE the unconditional support both the US and my own country are giving to hard liners and war criminals! Unlike the very, very, very vast majority of people ranting about "Genocide Joe" and how things under Trump wouldn't be worse than the genocide happening (...sure...) I examined someone literally yesterday that had nerve damage from a "bomb" causing debris to fall on and crush him ten years ago, so I guess that was during Operation Protective Edge. And I don't fucking care if an IDF missile or some HAMAS IED was to blame, I blame both the military leadership and government of Israel *and* HAMAS, their financiers and adjacent militants for creating and exploiting violence to pursue their agenda on the backs of civilians (and Palestinians are certainly bearing the brunt of it, living in what's basically small country-sized prisons AT BEST).
So, now I'm back to lurking the Ukraine thread and the Trump lawsuits, or, better yet, read the Berserk Deluxe I finally got after them being unavailable or having ridiculous shipping estimates.
I came here because I watched the Biden speech yesterday and felt slightly less anxious about Trump getting back into office and wanted to talk about it, since it even made my mother comment on being surprised about Biden not sounding old (...yeah, that talking point spread worldwide, totally not weaponised disinformation spread by some state...). And now this. Again.
Like, I'm German, with both card carrying NSDAP capital-N NAZI as well as people helping Jewish people emmigrate/flee (as persecution ramped up) ancestry, so my take on the whole miserable Israel-Palastine situation is complicated on a whole different level when discussing it, both IRL and online. My government is clearly on the wrong side of history with the excuse of being on the wrong side historically...yet I actually meet people from West Bank and Gaza weekly or daily, working with asylum seekers/refugees (mostly from Khan Younis, go on, check out what it was like in their giant refugee camp BEFORE the increase in violence last year...). I haven't joined any thread about the current escalation because the downright embarrassing and worrying takes infest most other however marginally related topics.
Wasn't it enough that people stanned the fucking HOUTHIS in their zeal to attack people they deem to have the wrong opinion, in this case members of this message board?! Not gonna lie, some, not all, but definitely some of the shit posted by people in Off Topic feels like trying to score internet points by being morally superior and/or owning people. It's honestly sickening at times. Not every issue has two sides, some topics are actually complex and might require more thought than what's often on display. Low effort shit posts are fun and can relieve stress, so dunk on some creepy GOP ghoul or whatever, I know I can't be arsed to do more most of the time, yet here I am, so annoyed that I typed more than the rest of my posts this year combined, probably. If you can't put in the mental effort and nuance to actually talk about complex issues with very real human suffering and interact with other posters above petty insults and/or a level of (reciprocal) accusations of enabling or supporting genocide, war crimes, terrorism or whatever for not agreeing with your specific take... maybe don't hit "post reply".
And I fucking DESPISE what the IDF and other like illegally land-taking settlers are doing! I DESPISE the unconditional support both the US and my own country are giving to hard liners and war criminals! Unlike the very, very, very vast majority of people ranting about "Genocide Joe" and how things under Trump wouldn't be worse than the genocide happening (...sure...) I examined someone literally yesterday that had nerve damage from a "bomb" causing debris to fall on and crush him ten years ago, so I guess that was during Operation Protective Edge. And I don't fucking care if an IDF missile or some HAMAS IED was to blame, I blame both the military leadership and government of Israel *and* HAMAS, their financiers and adjacent militants for creating and exploiting violence to pursue their agenda on the backs of civilians (and Palestinians are certainly bearing the brunt of it, living in what's basically small country-sized prisons AT BEST).
So, now I'm back to lurking the Ukraine thread and the Trump lawsuits, or, better yet, read the Berserk Deluxe I finally got after them being unavailable or having ridiculous shipping estimates.
To be open I want to say I reported you for being a rape apologist. Since reports are now a reason to ban someone.
Proud of you. Please take a break from this site if you need it.
Are folks really this bad at text interpretation? I'm not surprised the most reactionary part of this forum is like this, but it looks like you don't even give it a try. What LudicrousSpeed (who must be a saint) is saying is that there's a distinction between "Hamas is engaging in sex slavery" and "Individual instances of sexual abuse (and even sexual slavery) happened".
The corollary here, and maybe it will help folks grasp the moderation argument, is the fact that there have been many individual instances of IDF soldiers engaging in sexual abuse and torture of its prisoners (both before and after Oct 7). If I were to go to the Israel-Palestine thread and say the "sex slavery organization IDF", and provided either no context or individual examples only, it's not unreasonable to treat that as inflammatory comment.
I don't think this is necessarily a ban worthy offense and I don't agree with a lot of moderation decisions on many of the other topics here, but it's not like their reasoning here is that outlandish that it requires this whole struggle session.
This whole sexual assault of captives vs sex slavery is veering dangerously close to "its not a systemic problem with cops that some cops engage in police brutality ie. bad apples."
It's even weirder when water is being held for a known terrorist organization. No one is insinuating that if you label Hamas as having sex slaves that it's stereotyping Palestinians or Muslims in general.
Speaking as a Muslim American, I do not associate with Hamas whatsoever and do not lose sleep over them being called sex slave owners. Who is REALLY being off put by asserting these claims against Hamas? This is all a very strange case of getting in to the minutia of framing just to defend forum moderation. Moderation messed up and overreacted.
It's even weirder when water is being held for a known terrorist organization. No one is insinuating that if you label Hamas as having sex slaves that it's stereotyping Palestinians or Muslims in general.
Speaking as a Muslim American, I do not associate with Hamas whatsoever and do not lose sleep over them being called sex slave owners. Who is REALLY being off put by asserting these claims against Hamas? This is all a very strange case of getting in to the minutia of framing just to defend forum moderation. Moderation messed up and overreacted.
This ongoing defense of fucking hamas of all goddamned organizations is insane. They openly call for the total destruction of Israel, its in their charter ffs
I'd reccomend checking out the speech thread. It is mostly great only going off rails for the last couple pages before getting locked. At the very least I think it'd be helpful along the same lines as what you were looking for. I only hope this community survives this and continue to be a useful resource for people like yourself.
Yeah this is ridiculous. Given we already know "Genocide Joe" is accepted here with no action, someone can absolutely say the IDF is that type of organized and not get actioned.
It's a weak justification for a ban. No need for you to claim we are "reactionaries" or members lack reading comprehension for calling that out. Extremely uncalled for.
The speech thread is sadly locked because there's nowhere to consistently talk about that night now because this thread has become such a problem. Things were going in such a positive direction after that and now ALL political talk has been completely derailed.
Yeah I take that back, assumed initially Nep was referring to the Israeli gov't, but looking at it now yeah that's a super sus thing to say. Collectively punishing or blaming a whole people is wrong no matter what.
There was a lot of optimism and pro-Biden talk after his address. Something had to be done!
Thank you for this post. This is what I come here for. And thank you for the work you're doing to stand in the complexities.
Take care of yourself and no thanks needed, they're adults and should know better. It's shameful they don't.
Great ad I have faith we got this in the bag, but I won't be complacent.
There was someone openly posting Hamas propaganda in response to me saying Hamas and Netanyahu share blame for the ongoing campaign in Gaza in the State of the Union thread. After reporting these posts no actions have been taken or responses given. Instead the thread was abruptly closed effectively giving those seeking to derail or end discussion of the positive reactions and impressions for state of the union speech exactly what they wanted.
To say recent posting behaviors followed by a marked lack of moderation action has been disheartening would be an understatement.
It's wild that the response to the thread getting derailed was to just lock the thread completely.
Oh geez, I didn't notice that the SotU thread had been locked (granted, I've seen the last few pages of it, but yeah).
Here's one for you: if the rules and standards here can't help us have a thread about the SotU of all things, we have a problem that the administration needs to fix.
Here's one for you: if the rules and standards here can't help us have a thread about the SotU of all things, we have a problem that the administration needs to fix.
Yes I'm well aware but the conversation and discussion leading up to the lock still seems like it might be along the lines of the discourse he was looking for in this thread. At least I hope so
I don't get why people are posting Hamas talking points or ever defending Hamas. We can both Despise The Israeli Government for the Slaughter of Innocents, Despise Hamas for terrorism, kidnappings, rape.. and at the same time support the Jewish and Muslim Citizens caught in the middle who just want to live their lives in peace and not be part of the violence.
I saw that post, though didn't report it, but 100% you are correct that people are either whitewashing or straight up excusing Hamas in multiple threads, and that post is just one of many.
Just wanted to say I see you. We care. Be safe and do what you need to take care of yourself.
Absolutely. If nothing changes, it will just keep happening.
It's actually two posts. One linked for each word there but yea. It seemed extremely cut and dry to me as actual propaganda. I certainly wasn't expecting the thread to be closed without any action taken. Honestly I'm more upset about the thread being closed thereby cutting off yet another resource for folks to discuss and converse about important political events and topics.
our hearts are with you. Take some time for yourself away from here.
- Status