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Oct 25, 2017
7,987
México
User warned: Broad generalization about other cultures. Handwaving criticism from an Indian American on Indian American issues.
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
 
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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
People who are in the majority/dominant ethnic group in their country need to understand that their situation is not the same as minority groups, even if they share the same background.

Also, you're wrong to think that white people realized on their own that these things can be problematic.
 

fade

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
What's happened is that in general, the public has been deceived (most likely by the right) into thinking that "offensive" means a different word than it actually is. "Offensive" comedy, following the original definition of the word, is actually extremely good, because it goes on the offense and challenges upheld societal norms. People look at Carlin's Seven Words and judge the material as "offensive," but they completely misunderstand the definition of the word - Carlin's bit is actually offensive because it's tearing down the idea that comedians shouldn't be allowed to be crass, but people think it's "offensive" just because he's saying gross stuff and naughty words.

The other problem with Seven Words is that it is now completely obsolete. There used to be no way to ever get your artwork distributed on a large scale if it didn't play to puritan senses of morality, so important discussions about icky subjects just got brushed aside because nobody was able to talk about them. Now we have the internet. Now we have thousands of people successfully making a living off of writing, filming, or streaming homemade porn. Now if you make a movie with more nudity and/or gore than the MPAA would like to see, there's still a pretty damn good chance you can just get Netflix to throw money at you for it.

The general public doesn't seem to understand this, because people who actually are total shitheads (including some comedians, like Joan Rivers and Jeff Dunham) twisted the definition of "being offensive" into "being gross or impolite," and now it's gotten so bad that "being offensive" now means "representing conservative values" when that used to be exactly the opposite. As an example, staff of Chicago-based game company Cards Against Humanity have stated in the past that they avoid using the term "offensive" to describe their own game because what the game really is is just kinda gross. (The game, admittedly, has had some problems with genuinely hurtful cards in the past, but they've been diligent about removing content like that, and their social work speaks for itself.)

So now that the right has twisted the idea of being "offensive" into something that completely serves them instead of the attacks on the status quo it used to be, we have completely bizarre occurances where somebody with a South Park picture can come into a thread about The Simpsons being hurtful to Indian people and claim that the reason the show sucks now is because they're afraid of hurting somebody. These ridiculous leaps in logic are outright celebrated nowadays, alongside a show that once argued that it's okay to call gay people "faggot" because the show runners, two straight men, have changed the dictionary definition of it, all by themselves, you're welcome gay people.


I think you're whitwashing Carlin a little bit.

 

Oticon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,446
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
Hari Kondabolu is such a white privledged name.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,081
Halifax, NS
It's also important to note that Apu is literally the reason many South Asian actors have trouble finding work; they are explicitly told to be sound more like Apu despite no human on Earth having an accent like that.

This is the part I don't understand how people are missing. The Apu "accent" is an extreme exaggeration of a collection of mannerisms to the point of absurdity. No one actually talks like that. And that being your only exposure to the culture can condition you to expect people to talk like that. And you're disappointed or disinterested when they don't.

Colm Meaney spoke about the same thing when working on Star Trek, that being "Irish" meant having a very specific kind of accent that almost doesn't exist, because of people being conditioned years prior to hearing that exaggerated take on it as the "Irish" accent. If anyone thinks "irish sounding person" and the lucky charms mascot comes to mind, that's just one example of it.
 

Psykodoughboy

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
782
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
Are you a white Mexican? I see your kind of attitude in a lot of white Mexicans
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,199
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
Kondabolu makes a video explaining why and how stereotypes have had concrete, negative effects for him and others around him and your reaction is "white privileged americans"?

You can be apathetic to his issues and think Apu's creative value is more important to you than these people's problems, but be honest enough to say so.
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,940
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
Hari Kondabolu literally made a documentary about people being offended by Apu. He backs up his arguments very well too.

Also the Bumblebee Man is not Apu by any stretch. As far as I'm aware he's just a background character and there's no made up accent to make fun of the way he speaks. It's just a voice actor speaking Spanish.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,338
Kitchener, ON
I think the specific problem your noticing is that there aren't many non-white people on the Simpsons in general. I think that Apu is the only regular ethnic cast member aside from Carl. Someone pointed out Groundskeeper Willy, but he's technically white so nobody cares about him being a racial stereotype. Same for the German kid that vanished from the show awhile back. The Simpsons is pretty white. Ergo, it sticks out pretty hard when someone that's not white is a stereotype.
'Cause you brought up Groundskeeper Willie, I'll share a post I made over at NoHomers regarding him when someone sincerely asked "why Apu was considered offensive and Willie wasn't" when both were stereotypical characterizations...

Captain_Smiley said:
Why is Apu considered offensive but not Groundskeeper Willie?
Prospective Scottish-American actors weren't deprived of the opportunity to work in show business unless they talked like Groundskeeper Willie. Instead, like most Brits, they were happily offered work so long as they adopted an American accent like Andy Lincoln on The Walking Dead. And they were afforded this opportunity because, unlike actors with an Indian background, they were able to blend into the scenery without being profiled against an animated character (a caricature voiced by a white man) because of the color of their skin.

And when someone brought up Bill Maher's rebuttal over the weekend on holding older media to modern political correctness standards, I responded with the following...

The crux of this is... even if you fully agree with Maher's stance and understand fully that the show can't build itself a time machine, go back in time to the 1990s and not make Apu an offensive stereotype for Indian people in the 1990s or SJWs in the 2010s... it doesn't change the fact that:

A) how the show responded to these concerns last week was handled incredibly poorly
B) that they employed Lisa as the messenger to deliver this response was a betrayal to the established ideals of her character
C) that they intentionally attempted to leverage it into a publicity stunt by provoking outrage is shameful and...
D) the dismissive and defensive reactions to the social media reaction that they deliberately created has painted Al Jean, Harry Shearer and others in a bad light and opened up our eyes to the very legitimate contention that they have some equally poor grasp of tolerance issues TODAY that extend far beyond what may have been deemed acceptable back in the early 1990s when Hank Azaria cracked up the writer's room by trotting out an offensive shopkeeper character

These four things can hold true even if you agree with Maher fully on this issue (and I largely do).
 

TeamLeftMatch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,683
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.

Hari Kondabolu is a white American? News to me .
Watch the documentary and see that there is actually a problem.

There was little to no positive protrayl of Indians in the 90s so this is the only image many will see. Like some had mentioned Indian actors have trouble getting work because they should sound like Apu, (remember a white man voices him) .

The Simpons response is pretty much saying that it's ok to keep racist things racist because it wasn't racist at the time.

I said this before but compare this to the Lisa from "Lisa vs Malibu Stacy." Really shows you how different this show became.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
On the page, Apu could have been a huge step forward for minority representation on television. In the earlier years of the show, he's a diligent, hard-working minority, given meaningful development and gags- he's amongst the show's best-developed secondary characters, and if the promise of the writing had been carried all the way through, the character could have been a watershed. Unfortunately, he's voiced by Azaria with an accent that just about no one in the world has, and the whole thing is scuppered. Kondabolu's totally within his rights to aim his criticism at Azaria, although the creative staff need to take their share of the blame for allowing him to use it.

I'm not even going to say that Azaria playing the character is a dealbreaker- yes, of course it would be better if he was played by a South Asian actor, but respectful performances across racial lines aren't some intolerable sin in animation. However, Azaria playing that character with THAT accent is a dealbreaker- it reduces the character to a one-note stereotype in the way that the writing (usually) didn't.

Can someone remind me- didn't Apu's cousin Sanjay have a more realistic accent? I don't know who played the character, but it struck me in an episode that I recently watched that his accent seemed more true-to-life.
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,747
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.

This post is so bad I'm tempted to think it's parody but sadly it's all too easy to believe people are this stupid

178229-eight.jpg


That's Hari and his group of white privileged Americans getting angry on behalf of Indians

Are you a white Mexican? I see your kind of attitude in a lot of white Mexicans

Right, someone tried this exact shit earlier in the thread. Also see: Black America's more opposed to trump's Wall than any other group
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,338
Kitchener, ON
"Joo mean de one dat talks like dis?''

Totally not stereotypical...
As much flack as the show gets for bringing in guest stars of the week and pandering to them, the instances where they do typically results to non-stereotype portrayals of Hispanic characters such as when Eva Longoria played Lisa's new "Republican" friend and student council rival, Isabel Gutierrez, in Season 25's The Kid Is All Right or when Sofia Vergara played Bart's new substitute teacher (whom both Bart and Skinner proceeded to crush on), Carol Berrera, in Season 27's Teenage Mutant Milk-Caused Hurdles.

So the show has a pretty solid track record of NOT leaning on the racial stereotypes too heavily when they bring in celebrities... unless it's Sacha Baron Cohen playing an intentionally offensive character.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Bill Maher can fuck off with his "It wasn't offensive at the time" bullshit.

It was offensive then too, it was just that white liberals hadn't started pretending to care about what minorities thought back then.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,969
I think the specific problem your noticing is that there aren't many non-white people on the Simpsons in general. I think that Apu is the only regular ethnic cast member aside from Carl. Someone pointed out Groundskeeper Willy, but he's technically white so nobody cares about him being a racial stereotype. Same for the German kid that vanished from the show awhile back. The Simpsons is pretty white. Ergo, it sticks out pretty hard when someone that's not white is a stereotype.

I don't think that's what I'm noticing because that implies that all the non-white characters are ethnic stereotypes, and that's not really true. Bumblebee Man isn't an ethnic stereotype, he's a parody of a specific television show. Carl isn't a black stereotype, he and Lenny are the case of two background characters who only seem to exist together and they're based around that.

What I'm saying is that The Simpsons makes characters who are easy to understand, so that you have certain expectations of them that they can generate comedy from. Ethnic stereotypes are a part of that, but again, not all of the characters are ethnic stereotypes. That's oversimplifying things by lumping similar concepts together. Other characters are based on things that exist in American culture, or in literature and other fiction. The Sea Captain isn't an ethnic stereotype, but we're all seen that type of character a billion times, and so it's easy to understand because we've seen that stock character before and know what to expect from a sea captain.
 

Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
I don't think that's what I'm noticing because that implies that all the non-white characters are ethnic stereotypes, and that's not really true. Bumblebee Man isn't an ethnic stereotype, he's a parody of a specific television show. Carl isn't a black stereotype, he and Lenny are the case of two background characters who only seem to exist together and they're based around that.

What I'm saying is that The Simpsons makes characters who are easy to understand, so that you have certain expectations of them that they can generate comedy from. Ethnic stereotypes are a part of that, but again, not all of the characters are ethnic stereotypes. That's oversimplifying things by lumping similar concepts together. Other characters are based on things that exist in American culture, or in literature and other fiction. The Sea Captain isn't an ethnic stereotype, but we're all seen that type of character a billion times, and so it's easy to understand because we've seen that stock character before and know what to expect from a sea captain.
I forgot about Bumblebee man; I thought he wasan ethnic stereotype; specifically a Mexican TV character stereotype.
As for Carl and Lenny; they're really the only characters that aren't usually crazy. There pretty much Homer's 'normal' friends from work and the bar.

Eitherway, my point wasn't that everyone was an ethic stereotype, rather that the entire cast were stereotypes in general. Although, you can argue a lot of the stereotypes are racial in nature; Homer is a stereotypical white american middleclass Dad, the Pastor's wife is a stereotypical WASP, etc. That said I really wouldn't pursue that too far. The original point of my post was that the Simpsons were pretty much doing offensive stereotypes from the beginning for the sake of being offensive, and honestly I think the current writers forgot that.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,969
I forgot about Bumblebee man; I thought he wasan ethnic stereotype; specifically a Mexican TV character stereotype.
As for Carl and Lenny; they're really the only characters that aren't usually crazy. There pretty much Homer's 'normal' friends from work and the bar.

Eitherway, my point wasn't that everyone was an ethic stereotype, rather that the entire cast were stereotypes in general. Although, you can argue a lot of the stereotypes are racial in nature; Homer is a stereotypical white american middleclass Dad, the Pastor's wife is a stereotypical WASP, etc. That said I really wouldn't pursue that too far. The original point of my post was that the Simpsons were pretty much doing offensive stereotypes from the beginning for the sake of being offensive, and honestly I think the current writers forgot that.

Let me put it this way. This is a parody of a famous American comic book character.

80403e42d5d3790531eedo4s4i.jpg


Is it a stereotype of an American?
 

Jom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,490
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
Wait people in their native countries where they're the majority and not having to deal with white people teasing them with things like "Thank you come again" or stereotyping them as gas station attendants aren't particularly offended???? YOU DON'T SAY!

In support of your post I'll add this to your post. Did you know that Asian males in Asia aren't particularly offended about the portrayal of Asian-American males in the United States as unattractive, sterile people who are good for nothing but martial arts because in Asia we are like 95% of ALL men?!?! Same thing with Asian women being seen as "exotic" and "oriental" in the US.
 
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PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
I forgot about Bumblebee man; I thought he wasan ethnic stereotype; specifically a Mexican TV character stereotype.

While going back to Bumblebee man, i was watching the simpsons the other day in the original language (something i couldn't do on tv before the introduction of digital cable boxes to Mexico) and it was the episode where Bart becomes Krusty's Assistant, and they show Bumblebee Man speaking perfect english with no problem when discussing the comedic merits of the skit they were doing.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Like I said in another thread:

People in the US need to calm down. Seriously... people in the US gets offended by everything... and what's worse is that they like to get offended in behalf of other countries/persons.

I don't get offended by the Bumblebee Man... in fact, all the people in Mexico I know likes him. I'm pretty sure people in India are not offended by Apu.

This "problem" is just white privileged americans with no real problems, trying to get involved in something.
it's hilarious how these dumb posts still pop up somehow. You didn't even bothered to read the fucking title.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,338
Kitchener, ON
While going back to Bumblebee man, i was watching the simpsons the other day in the original language (something i couldn't do on tv before the introduction of digital cable boxes to Mexico) and it was the episode where Bart becomes Krusty's Assistant, and they show Bumblebee Man speaking perfect english with no problem when discussing the comedic merits of the skit they were doing.
 

Aselith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,350
How is this interesting food for thought

It just seems like a bunch of folks dismissing his views because they can't relate to him directly, but by starting off as " well i can't tell indian people how to feel "

I love how one person unironically asks why people didn't notice the problem 20 years ago without any reflection on what 20 years of time means for the world.

Especially so since he's been around MORE than 20 years.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
While going back to Bumblebee man, i was watching the simpsons the other day in the original language (something i couldn't do on tv before the introduction of digital cable boxes to Mexico) and it was the episode where Bart becomes Krusty's Assistant, and they show Bumblebee Man speaking perfect english with no problem when discussing the comedic merits of the skit they were doing.

I mean, i always thought the joke of that scene is basically how it was acknowledging how Bumblebee man was such a ridiculous stereotyped character, and reading the wiki it says that the comics say that Bumblebee Man is actually belgian and he is only acting the way he thinks mexicans act, which is of course pretty meta. There is also an episode where Bumblebee Man gives the news in perfect english.

I think stuff like this makes it even worse, why not make an episode about how Apu is in reality american born and whatnot but he decided to start pretending he was indian because he was tired of people not believing him was american (but where are you really from?) Maybe it wouldn't have been funny, but is not like the simpsons are super funny anymore lol.
 
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NoRéN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,623
Hari Kondabolu literally made a documentary about people being offended by Apu. He backs up his arguments very well too.

Also the Bumblebee Man is not Apu by any stretch. As far as I'm aware he's just a background character and there's no made up accent to make fun of the way he speaks. It's just a voice actor speaking Spanish.
Wait, you think Bubblebee Man's voice is what Hank Azaria, or Dan C. naturally sounds like when speaking Spanish?
 

ham bone

Alt account
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
732
I was thinking about the creation of Apu and stereotypes and I came upon a theory better than "it was the 90's." Those writers were all the Harvard, Conan O'Brien types and if there is one thing they embrace in order to make a joke funnier are stereotypes.

Ask them for a sketch with a homeless person and they will come up with this.

11ad2718c1eff95f8cd0272b1d0c6737.jpg


man-wearing-barrel-and-suspenders-after-divorce1_2161.jpg


Rich people will have top hats and monocles.

f1c57b092b0cc35497e2f74bfc0c9e82.jpg



Those guys all have a fascination with depictions of old timey stereotypes and how absurd they seem to us.




latest



I think that informed a lot of character choices when they started out. Plus, Hank Azaria says his contact with indians were with the 7-11 he visited daily to chat with the clerks.

Put those together and yeah, you end up with Apu.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,733
Canada
I'm with Thammy; reading that Shearer tweet & realizing he's a dumbass willing to go to bat for racism is going to ruin any future Spinal Tap rewatches.

How is it ridiculous? The line between "having a human voice a talking pig because those literally don't exist" & "having a human voice a fictional human from another culture by mimicking a racial caricature" is pretty obvious. It's also important to note that Apu is literally the reason many South Asian actors have trouble finding work; they are explicitly told to be sound more like Apu despite no human on Earth having an accent like that.

I'm assuming this is bait, because you have to be closing your eyes to not see that difference, but I'm hoping this helps if you're genuinely confused.

Putting this together with trinity's previous posts in this thread, it seems that the idea that they're pushing is that anyone who cares about this is humourless and they're something wrong with us if we perceive racism here, as we're trying to police people's thoughts.

Seems you were right
 

honest_ry

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,288
The stereotypes in the Simpsons are hilarious. I love them.

"that's the last time ye will bash ye Willie around"
 

Deleted member 6173

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,088
So Stephen Colbert and Hank Azaria are having a discussion about this right now and it's quite informative. He's asking some good questions. Everyone should check it out.
 

ramoisdead

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,525
Here's the video response of Azaria when Colbert explained to him what happened during that infamous Simpsons episode. Before the video Azaria said he didn't agree with the Simpsons message that he apparently saw for the first time around the same time as everyone else did a few weeks back.

 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,338
Kitchener, ON
Hank continues to do the absolute best job of responding to this issue among the show's staff, writers, producers and voice talent.
It's a shame everyone else involved haven't seen fit to follow his lead.
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
Hank continues to do the absolute best job of responding to this issue among the show's staff, writers, producers and voice talent.
It's a shame everyone else involved haven't seen fit to follow his lead.

Yet, he wouldn't talk to an actual Indian American who was making a documentary to discuss it...
 

ramoisdead

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,525
At the very least, Hari is somewhat satisfied with Azaria's response. Hopefully it's a start that "Simpsons" creative can work on.

 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
At the very least, Hari is somewhat satisfied with Azaria's response. Hopefully it's a start that "Simpsons" creative can work on.



Glad Hari was satisfied. I still think Hank was a real ass for not just doing the doc, and I suspect a large part of this response was probably born from that fact and how much face it makes him lose in the grand scheme of things, but maybe that is just me being cyncial
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
At the very least, Hari is somewhat satisfied with Azaria's response. Hopefully it's a start that "Simpsons" creative can work on.



Glad Hari was satisfied. I still think Hank was a real ass for not just doing the doc, and I suspect a large part of this response was probably born from that fact and how much face it makes him lose in the grand scheme of things, but maybe that is just me being cyncial

Interesting game of telephone. "I appreciate" becomes "somewhat satisfied" becomes "satisfied."