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Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
The thing is, the very reason Api exists is because Azaria played off a racist stereotype at the initial script reading - and worse, everyone in the room loved that racial stereotype. They thought it was funny. That's... unsettling.
Kal Penn explaining how casting directors look for this stupid accent when trying to cast Indian characters also hits the nail on why Apu is fucking awful.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...pts-revealing-indian-stereotypes-in-hollywood

Being told to do it again but this time with the "accent", is straight up disgusting.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
Hmm. But has anybody "moved forward" in their career on that show, 30 years on?

I agree that a recasting would be nice -- Hank Azaria has plenty of other characters to handle, it wouldn't be a big deal, they can afford to do it, and it would show some good faith on the part of the show.

There have been moves forward that stuck, but I can't think of any career-related ones. I imagine that as a side character it would be easier to pull off.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
And then he built that into a heartfelt, rounded, hardworking vegan Hindu with a successful business.

Like, I get the origins are bad, and its not cast in a politically correct manner, but the character is very good.

He is propogating a revolting ethnic stereotype and it is driven by white people. Full stop white people, get your shit together and stop fighting poc who are telling you how to do better
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,498
Just because one group of people within the stereotyped community is fine with it, doesn't mean complaints within the documentary and this thread should be dismissed.

And I think the most common requests here are very reasonable. Recast the character, and at least get consultants for how the character should be portrayed and what areas could be mined for jokes that white writers would know nothing about. And no, doing that won't make the character unrecognizable to the point that they might as well make a new character.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
To be fair he's also depicted early on as having less than sanitary store conditions purely to cut corners or do less work so that't not super flattering. Not sure if that's a stereotype though or just how the specific character was written regardless of race/origin.

This. Also, having employees under him would give him an authority that isn't found with a lot of Simpson's minority side characters until now aside from off the top of my head Krusty (Bart's Latina teacher has been mentioned)
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,933
I'm just saying it's a more apt comparison. She's "funny" because of the accent, because she talks slow, and because she doesn't understand english. And, because of that, she's quotable to young people who are going to turn around and use it on their hispanic peers. There is no hesitation to use the stereotypical accent. And it becomes a representation of their parents. And she's voiced by an old white dude.

rAnUOA5.jpg
Not Mexican, but my Latina grandmother absolutely has had jackasses making Consuela jokes at her because she looks vaguely like the character, despite having absolutely nothing else in common with the character.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
And then he built that into a heartfelt, rounded, hardworking vegan Hindu with a successful business.

Like, I get the origins are bad, and its not cast in a politically correct manner, but the character is very good.

None of what you said is wrong but here's the thing, would you go to bat defending a live-action blackface character even if they were a well-rounded, well-written character?

Too many people in here dismissing legitimate problems and concerns from minorities that have been affected by the Simpsons portrayal of Indians just because "I like the Simpsons" and they lack the empathy and/or critical thinking to realise that you can love something and still be critical of it.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,238
The Simpsons has done great things with Apu. That doesn't change the fact that he perpetuates harmful stereotypes about South Asian people. This response was supremely tone deaf.

Also, LMAO at people being offended at "melanin deprived". Y'all are some fragile-ass motherfuckers.
Not white. Still think "melanin-deprived" is a pathetic, eye-roll-inducing, obnoxious attempt at an insult and I hope the mods discipline anyone using it unironically.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
This. Also, having employees under him would give him an authority that isn't found with a lot of Simpson's minority side characters until now aside from off the top of my head Krusty (Bart's Latina teacher has been mentioned)

Apu has had a few occasional employees, namely Sanjay, his brother, and once Sanjay's son, Jamshed.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
have you read the original article, "The Problem with Apu"?

It's literally the answer to your question.

I did when it first came out and remember taking issue with his ideas for what success would mean. He is successful. As portrayed early on. He works hard, owns a sports car and a house, dates often...

Apu has had a few occasional employees, namely Sanjay, his brother, and once Sanjay's son, Jamshed.

Also homer and James woods.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,055
Massachusetts
The documentary made me think of a few different scenarios. If Apu was introduced, let's say five years ago, would the reception be the same? Or if we had the recent surge of Indian actors in the 80/90s, would his dialog used as a slur still be a thing?
 

soniko_

Banned
Jan 25, 2018
178
Ah come on

She is funny

Just like Herbert the pervert. Any mexicans here that are offended by her?
nope, not at all.

If i had to have a say in this, is that she portrays the role not of a mexican, but the whole latin american woman who just got into the us and can/know only how to do house work, with very limited language.
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797
I was ready to call this critique straight up bullshit, but I'll read the article linked and try and watch the video at some point.

For what it's worth, I always loved Apu as a character - not necessarily due to his accent or his catch phrase - but actually because he comes across as a decently written character who has a lot more depth than most. He's endearing.

He absolutely wouldn't be created in the same way in 2018, but then we are talking about a character introduced 30 odd years back by a small writing team.



Still think "melanin-deprived" is a pathetic, eye-roll-inducing, obnoxious attempt at an insult and I hope the mods discipline anyone using it unironically.

Agreed, pretty pathetic.
 

Carl2291

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,782
Yeah and Londoners talk like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins
I was just poking fun at how ridiculous the cockney accent is, but Dick Van Dyke's poor over exaggeration on the cockney accent is actually quite similar to Hank Azaria's over exaggeration on Apu's Indian accent.

Thanks for that. My overall point was that these different stereotypical accents do exist.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Shout out to all of the Right Wing grifters rallying around the Simpsons of all things on Twitter.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
There are plenty of people that were just happy to see a brown face on TV and were willing to overlook everything else. The same way that a lot of offensive shit used to be overlooked in the past, bad representation was better than no representation to a lot of people.

Oh yeah, i can relate to this, i remember when T. Hawk was added to Street Fighter 2 i was absolutely hyped, even tho he was mexican only on a technicality and his tribe was more based on the Apache (who have territories in mexico but are more associated with modern day USA), I was just happy about mexico being represented in some way in a videogame.

the controversy with speedy gonzales never had anything to do with the character of speedy gonzales

it has to do with the way all the other mexican mice are portrayed, which is usually sleepy, lazy, slow talking, dirt poor, alcoholic, and gullible. Speedy Gonzales is like the super hero version of all of them that have none of their faults, so yeah of course that specific character rules. It's the implications about everyone else, who are supposed to represent normal mexicans who aren't the fastest mice in all of mexico, that is racist as shit.

[images]

It's kinda weird, but i never met anybody who had a problem with this, however im gonna admit, i always thought Speedy Gonzalez cartoons were supposed to take place in colonial times (with the exception of one that had speedy with a completely different design), so to me seeing those dudes i thought they were supposed to be poor peasants, only recently i began to consider the idea of Speedy Gonzalez cartoons not being supposed to be period pieces.

I think you're misinterpreting what I posted.

What I mean is that audiences "having endeared to Apu" means nothing. It has zero value in the discussion, and frankly isn't worth considering when weighted against the shittiness of everything else surrounding his character's conception.

It sure as hell explains why the writers took that weakass "what do you do?" stance, they write off or change Apu, people will be mad, they keep him as he is, people will be mad. They don't have the balls to fix Apu and risk angering any demographic that doesn't like that, it's the old cowardly "racist buy shoes too" aproach.

One guy in my home town changed the name of his convenience store to Kwik E Mart.

They love him.

Hah, reminds me there was a bar near my home who straight up was "Moe's Tavern".

I'm 80% German. I don't get upset when people call me an "Aryan race" or play games where Germans are shown as Nazis. It's not an identical comparison, but quick and dirty - and fully negative. If all Mexicans were portrayed as El Chapo, I can see that being an obvious bad thing. It's hard to say what should be pushed back on - I just don't think that Apu is a terrible character. Then again, I'm not Indian - so I defer to Indians.

I guess it's the immediate effect, if you're german, people might make nazi jokes but they won't assume you're a nazi, same goes for narcos and mexicans, but Apu? i feel it's different because he's a random citizen, so i can see how his stereotypes could be instantly projected into anybody unlike projecting Nazi/Narco stereotypes into random germans and mexicans.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
I'm talking about some posters in this thread.

Me, he's calling me racist, just to be clear. Just in a cowardly way without any supporting evidence.

On topic, I find the proposed solution ignorant because the Lebanese American I worked under for 5 years was extremely successful, owned one party/convenience store. He had many opportunities to expand but chose not to, as he had success. A sports car, a very nice house. A well run business with 4 employees. There was no point to expanding.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,055
Massachusetts
There is also Akira with the reverse situation. Voiced by George Takei originally, then by Hank Azaria for the remainder of the series.

latest
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
I was just poking fun at how ridiculous the cockney accent is, but Dick Van Dyke's poor over exaggeration on the cockney accent is actually quite similar to Hank Azaria's over exaggeration on Apu's Indian accent.

Thanks for that. My overall point was that these different stereotypical accents do exist.

The point you're intent on missing is that they don't. Cockneys don't sound like Dick van Dyke and Indians don't sound like Apu.
 

honest_ry

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,288
I'm utterly outraged by the stereotype of Willie. Not all Scottish people are violent rage fueled gingers who hail from Northkilttown.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,354
Kitchener, ON
Never thought I'd associate Simpsons avatars with racism... But here we are
Just to hopefully dispel some of this flawed perspective from taking root, here's my response to the Apu portrayal controversy from 4 months ago...

I commented on this doc over on NoHomers a few months back. Figure I'll reiterate my perspective here...

Man;3755723 said:
Maybe some of the other writers wanted to annoy Reiss, so when he wasn't around they told Azaria that they wanted an Indian accent.
I don't buy that. Frankly, it makes no sense to even wrap your head around some kind of notion that there was some internal battle between writers to overrule Mike Reiss on the use of a stereotype when stereotypes have been largely embraced throughout the show's 28-year history. Hank simply did an improv during the table read of The Telltale Head, made the rest of the room laugh because he's supremely talented and that's what comedians do and they ran with it.

And had The Simpsons been on the air for a single season instead of becoming an overnight smash success, it wouldn't have made a lick of difference because a bit character that's briefly on the screen in three Season 1 episodes would have been as quickly forgotten as all of the live-action stereotypical Indian shopkeeper characterizations in cinema from the late 80s / early 90s have largely been.

But it wasn't. Instead it became a cultural phenomenon. Now the show's writers are kind of penciled into a corner because they're now largely contributing to the public's cultural consciousness and one of their now-established pantheon of characters is an Indian guy voiced by a white actor. And while I don't buy Hank's story that he was told to make Apu an Indian stereotype from the onset (I trust that Mike wrote 'not an Indian' in the script and was overruled by the reception when Hank trotted the voice out), I do believe him when he says he was told to play up the stereotype in subsequent appearances 'cause you can hear the evolution of his delivery in Homer's Night Out and Krusty Get Busted as Apu starts getting more lines. And that's largely what the show has done over the years... they use a stereotype or an impression of a familiar celebrity/character as a starting point for a character and then they get fleshed out and evolve over time. They've been doing that consistently from Day 1... from the early days to the HD era creations like The Parson, Shauna Chalmers and Anger Watkins. Sometimes they become something MORE than that initial rendition (which Apu has) and other times they do not.

Hari's contention is entirely valid. Apu set the bar really low for mainstream awareness of how Indians should be portrayed in entertainment. The Simpsons is kind of a victim of its own success in this respect. And yet the larger fundamental problem here is the bigotry on display from creators in the entertainment industry in the decades since to apply what is a clear stereotype in a comedic cartoon as a basis for "this is how Indian characters should sound". This is a problem.
And, my response to what they chose to do last night...

Let's see if this manufactured attempt to foster Internet outrage actually managed to prevent the Simpsons from falling below two million viewers for the first time. I'd like to say I expected better from them than to fan the flames JUST to get some attention... but, yeah, I'm not surprised.

I mean, I legitimately thought they tried to maturely address the gentrification issue in Season 27's Much Apu About Something... and, if I'm playing devil's advocate, I can see their mindset is that "the damage is already done". They can't go back and build a time machine and not make Apu an offensive Indian stereotype. They're not going to erase him from the show's past. Apu isn't actively perpetuating offensive Indian stereotypes beyond his established shopkeeper characterization the little that he's used in Season 29. The show is going to be ending sooner rather than later so why should they feel compelled to change because someone decided to get upset about a decision that was made almost 3 decades ago.

I get it. And yet, what they did tonight was tactless and completely unnecessary. And I don't think it's going to drive the attention they're so craving right now... be it good attention or bad attention.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
I'm 80% German. I don't get upset when people call me an "Aryan race" or play games where Germans are shown as Nazis. It's not an identical comparison, but quick and dirty - and fully negative. If all Mexicans were portrayed as El Chapo, I can see that being an obvious bad thing. It's hard to say what should be pushed back on - I just don't think that Apu is a terrible character. Then again, I'm not Indian - so I defer to Indians.

if you watch the doc, its more so that apu was pretty much THE indian in most of western media for the longest time, which is why it's leaving such a negative taste in everyone's mouth.

id honestly be interested in seeing a bizzaro world where there were tons of other Indians being portrayed in that time period (both stereotypical, and non stereotypical as with other groups of people)... if there were more options, I honestly wonder how apu would be viewed in today's light.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
It's kinda weird, but i never met anybody who had a problem with this, however im gonna admit, i always thought Speedy Gonzalez cartoons were supposed to take place in colonial times (with the exception of one that had speedy with a completely different design), so to me seeing those dudes i thought they were supposed to be poor peasants, only recently i began to consider the idea of Speedy Gonzalez cartoons not being supposed to be period pieces.

They take place all over time, you are right. Some, like the pied piper one, clearly arent modern times. But many speedy gonzales cartoons take place in factories that look pretty modern.

hqdefault.jpg


From one of the cartoons those mice came from. Electrical lines, modern factory... i mean its like 1950s, but still not colonial times.

Regardless, i dont find the character of speedy gonzales offensive, and imo they should make new cartoons with him that dont resort to making all the other mexican mice offensive stereotypes. But, as someone who can admit slowpoke Rodriguez is pretty funny, as an adult i see that it is a pretty offensive characterization. Things can be offensive and funny at the same time.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,498
It's kinda weird, but i never met anybody who had a problem with this, however im gonna admit, i always thought Speedy Gonzalez cartoons were supposed to take place in colonial times (with the exception of one that had speedy with a completely different design), so to me seeing those dudes i thought they were supposed to be poor peasants, only recently i began to consider the idea of Speedy Gonzalez cartoons not being supposed to be period pieces.
... Oh damn, I never even thought they were supposed to be contemporary! I thought they took place way in the past too.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
if you watch the doc, its more so that apu was pretty much THE indian in most of western media for the longest time, which is why it's leaving such a negative taste in everyone's mouth.

While representation in general has gone up a lot in modern days, i have noticed that Indian representation is one of the most prominent, wonder if it was a direct response to this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
User banned (2 days): ignoring a previous warning and doubling down on the conduct that got you warned in the first place.
I just want everyone to know that despite clicking I understand for the warning above, I stand by my statement against racism
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky
Just to hopefully dispel some of this flawed perspective from taking root, here's my response to the Apu portrayal controversy from 4 months ago...


And, my response to what they chose to do last night...

I was wondering when you would show up. I always appreciate your perspective on The Simpsons. You put things better than I could have.

if you watch the doc, its more so that apu was pretty much THE indian in most of western media for the longest time, which is why it's leaving such a negative taste in everyone's mouth.

id honestly be interested in seeing a bizzaro world where there were tons of other Indians being portrayed in that time period (both stereotypical, and non stereotypical as with other groups of people)... if there were more options, I honestly wonder how apu would be viewed in today's light.

He'd probably not be especially notable. I think Apu being sort of the prototypical Indian stereotype in the modern era is the most noteworthy thing about him, at least from a broad cultural perspective. The writers have done brilliant things with him before, but ask most people on the street and they know him as the "Thank you, come again" guy.
 

Deleted member 1086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,796
Boise Area, Idaho
Always thought that Speedy Gonzales cartoon where he has to escort the two drunk mice to their home to ensure they don't get eaten by the cat to be particularly offensive. I remember watching that as a kid and thinking the depiction of the two drunk mice was off.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
They take place all over time, you are right. Some, like the pied piper one, clearly arent modern times. But many speedy gonzales cartoons take place in factories that look pretty modern.

Regardless, i dont find the character of speedy gonzales offensive, and imo they should make new cartoons with him that dont resort to making all the other mexican mice offensive stereotypes. But, as someone who can admit slowpoke Rodriguez is pretty funny, as an adult i see that it is a pretty offensive characterization. Things can be offensive and funny at the same time.

I really liked how Speedy was protrayed in The Looney Tunes Show, in fact every character was on point in that show, so i wouldn't mind more of that version of Speedy and giving him an expanded cast of mexican characters.
 

Novocaine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,946
I watched the doco. He makes a good point and in my instance he is correct because up until 3-4 years ago I had very little interaction with anyone from India/Bangladesh/Pakistan, I'm 35 now. Fortunately for me The Simpsons taught me very early on after that Australia episode that what how the characters in the show are portrayed is not a reflection of real life.

Regardless of the issues surrounding him I've always liked Apu as a character, he is one of the more developed and humanized characters in the show. At least he was when I checked out of Simpson's around a decade ago.

And that response by the show is terrible. They should have just kept their mouths shut if that's the only response they could muster.
 

BennyBoy

Banned
Mar 31, 2018
24
I think the initial joke of Apu wasn't lol Indians but just convenience stores are run by a lot of people who happen to be Indian - cultural stereotype lold at in many different media. I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with lampooning this cultural observation but it is a little fd up in 2018 that every minority character in the Simpsons is voiced by an old white dude. They should hire minority voice actor
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,996
Houston
And then he built that into a heartfelt, rounded, hardworking vegan Hindu with a successful business.

Like, I get the origins are bad, and its not cast in a politically correct manner, but the character is very good.
this is what i dont understand about the complaints. Yes his accent is a caricature of indian accents, as are many other accents on the show of their respective culture, but the character himself is probably the most successful regular character on the show, outside of Mr Burns. And as i stated earlier as far as i'm aware Hinduism is the only religion they haven't mocked.