totofogo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,543
Chicago
KingK released this retrospective on Galaxy 1 + 2 yesterday, and I think it does a great job of capturing my long felt disappointment with the sequel to one of the greatest games of all time. Of course, I won't contest that it has masterful level design and is a joy to play... but that only gets it halfway there to Galaxy's level of masterpiece. Not only is the game a glorified level pack, it even stumbles within that assessment in focusing more on course-clear style level design rather than the graceful mix of Galaxy 1. To that point, I appreciated how he compared Galaxy 2 to what would come after, 3D World, specifically how it felt like a misguided step towards that direction. With lots of us replaying 3D World this week, and exploring the new direction of Bowser's Fury, I thought this was worth a thread to discuss.

EDIT: to be clear, I love Galaxy 2 lol, it's no doubt one of the greatest platformers of all time. This video and discussion are about how Galaxy 1 and 2 relate to each other and why Galaxy 2 feels to have dropped the ball as a sequel to Galaxy.

What are your thoughts on this video, and where do you want to see the Mario series head next?

 
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Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,883
I haven't watched video yet and I will, but I will say I definitely see where part of the OP is coming from.

Galaxy 2 lacks the magic of everything else Galaxy besides the level design and music. Galaxy's story was minimal, but beautiful and epic imo. The game also just captured the serene beauty of space way better than Galaxy 2, I don't really know how else to explain it. And that is a big factor in why I love Galaxy 1 so much, so I rank 2 lower.

I disagree that the course clear level design was a BAD decision, just a different one. It's still phenomenal level design and bridged the gap between Galaxy 1 and 3D Land/World and those are great games too. Though yes, it did feel like you spent less time in every Galaxy considering they had half the stars, and it felt like not many of them were more open areas like beach bowl, deep dark, gold leaf, freezeflame, sea slide or honeyhive. Though some would argue that's a good thing and that open design didn't fit with Galaxy
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
19,919
Mario Galaxy 2 is a perfect game tho

I don't give a shit if it comes off as "just a level pack" it has better level design than Galaxy 1, therefore, it is the better game.
 
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Noog

▲ Legend ▲
Member
May 1, 2018
3,059
Galaxy and Galaxy 2 are the best 3D Mario games. Nothing even comes close, and I think the worst 3D Mario is still like an 8.5-9.0.

That said, watch this video. It's very well made (as all of his content is), and makes some good points about this being kind of a line in the sand where Mario became the more safe and sterile version we know now compared to the looser approach we saw in the GameCube and Wii era.
 

Annabel

Member
Mar 22, 2019
1,677
I watched the video yesterday and I pretty much agreed with it wholesale.

When I played Galaxy 2 I always thought it felt oddly hollow, despite the level design being generally great to amazing. I just never felt attached to it like I did Galaxy 1, it really lacked the magic that made the first game special to me.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
Everything other than the level design of Galaxy 1 felt unnecessary to me, although I know this is not a widespread opinion. So Galaxy 2 was the absolute perfect game for me and I hope we get the chance to replay it soon.
 

Deleted member 59109

User requested account closure
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Aug 8, 2019
7,877
I think it definitely has some issues, even though it trims down some of the bloat from Galaxy 1 it still has a lot of padding that really doesn't have much to do with platforming, stuff like the drill/rock power ups or motion control gimmick levels. And constantly waving the remote around to collect star bits still isn't fun to me. Also, the movement isn't bad but Mario still feels kind of stiff in the air. But, I still think it's a lot better than Galaxy 1 and probably the best 3D Mario game. The levels are overall just a lot more focused and fun to play for me than Galaxy 1. It also feels more bright/colorful to me, Galaxy 1 had this kind of darker look for some reason which I just wasn't a fan of
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
31,191
Yup, Galaxy 2 is incredible but it's an iterative sequel that improves and expands on much of what was introduced in its predecessor but loses some of the subtle masterstrokes that made the original truly special. It was a rushed, difficult project and those limitations and challenges manifest themselves pretty clearly in the interstitial moments between most of the excellent levels.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,065
I love his videos and I get his argument, but Mario Galaxy 2 is just in another dimension when it comes to the "game" part of it.
 

onpoint

Neon Deity Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
16,482
716
I greedily gobbled up every level in Galaxy. I couldn't have been bothered to play more than a few hours of Galaxy 2. I never really thought about why, it just felt lacking. I'm gonna have to watch this video. Maybe boot up Galaxy 2 again at some point too.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
124,159
I think SMG2 is the best 3D Mario game ever made. Sure, it's not novel, but it trades uniqueness for sheer strength of level and game design.
 

Ramsay

Member
Jul 2, 2019
3,693
Australia
Galaxy 2 is an interesting case, as it just like 3D World has near-perfect level design and uses level concepts in incredibly creative ways, but outside of that, there's isn't that much going for these games compared to something like Galaxy 1.
 

Subaru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
353
São Paulo, Brazil
I just started watching the video and I can't believe that he used Super Mario Bros. 2 as "every new mario game shake things up"
C'mon, it's 2021, we all know that SMB2 wasn't a Mario game.

EDIT: ok, he corrects that later.

That said, I'm gonna continue watching even I think that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to convince me that SMG2 is worse than 1.
 

Horohorohoro

Member
Jan 28, 2019
6,767
I watched it yesterday and thought it was pretty good. I don't have strong feelings toward SMG2 and barely remember it but I thought it was a super interesting video.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
It tightened up and focused Galaxy 1 into a better game. The hub in Galaxy 1 barely adds anything and the "magic" that people feel is just nostalgia or a misplaced feeling that what they enjoyed first ends up the best. Also framing Galaxy 1 as "graceful" is leading and pretty much makes me want to dismiss the argument wholesale.

I also have no background on this youtuber and why I should even listen to his argument with any more weight than some schmo of the street.
 

Deleted member 33120

User Requested Account Closure
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Nov 15, 2017
970
I felt like that was a lot of time spent on saying very little. And I say this as someone who is inclined to agree with him.
 

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,095
I played SMG1 again right after I 100%'d SMG2 around its launch, and I still thought the sequel was the better game when taking into consideration all of the content and the refinements to how the second player can contribute. I think SMG1 has some better highs musically though. Both games make up the pinnacle of 3D Mario games for me, so I don't like thinking of one as being better than the other. It's amazing that we got both games during the Wii generation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,290
Toronto, ON
I prefer Galaxy 1 but Galaxy 2 is an incredible game. I don't agree that it's "just an assortment of levels" - it's brilliant, fresh, Yoshi is perfectly executed. Yes, it obviously builds on Galaxy 1, but staging that as a bad thing or as "not innovative" is a close-minded way to think about game design that completely ignores all of the little inventions and new twists that Galaxy 2 adds in and experiments with. The video's argument doesn't really hold up as a thorough claim, it's just a lot of vagueries about Galaxy 1 that don't amount to anything concrete.

Galaxy 2 is an interesting case, as it just like 3D World has near-perfect level design and uses level concepts in incredibly creative ways, but outside of that, there's isn't that much going for these games compared to something like Galaxy 1.

Saying "This game has near perfect level design and it's incredibly creative in its execution, but outside of that..." is like saying "This meal has perfect ingredients and it's incredibly delicious, but otherwise, come on, not really much here." Not sure what someone could want out of a Mario game but near perfect level design and incredible creativity.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,422
Denver, CO
Gotta agree with the video. Yeah, it's a good game, but I personally felt like it didn't provide any meaningful improvements over SMG. Also, the sense of discovery in SMG is unmatched compared to 2.
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
King K is one of the worst ever. Constant negativity in his videos. Nothing great about his perspectives
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,883
Watching the video really made me feel what he was saying.

Ive always said Galaxy 2 is amazing because of its level design and music, and I still stand by that.

However, watching the video made me realize Nintendo and the level design purists on era boxes me in and had me accept it for what is. Which in a way I still do. Since it came out, I've always thought "well it was always gonna be more Galaxy, expecting a radical twist or new shift in the story that makes it stand out as something more than just refined Galaxy is fanfic level".... but now I'm thinking - why SHOULD that be fanfic level? Why should I excuse them rehashing and watering down Galaxy 2's story and atmosphere when they made 64, Sunshine and Galaxy 1 all stand out atmospherically? It's not something Nintendo COULDNT do.

The video kinda made me frustrated now lol, Galaxy 2 is one of my favorite games ever and I've always known it didn't have the vibes of the first, but I kind of excused it because it's Nintendo who isn't big on story anyway and I always have the first.

But just picturing a Galaxy 2 in my head with a new and unique story and scenario, less "expansion pass" feel (the point he made about Battlerock vs. Melty Monster in how cohesive the first one's missions felt, and how uncohesive the second ones did really hit me) now, I can't help but feel he's completely right in that it could've topped Galaxy 1 EASILY considering how great the game part is - and that's coming from someone who's most important and cherished game ever is SMG1.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,883
King K is one of the worst ever. Constant negativity in his videos. Nothing great about his perspectives
i mean he made points with this one, the constant praise for SMG2's level design here really overshadows the understandable disappointments some had with the grandeur and novelty of the story and atmosphere of the first being completely absent, I'm glad this thread was made
 
OP
OP
totofogo

totofogo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,543
Chicago
Mario Galaxy 2 is a perfect game tho

I don't give a shit if it comes off as "just a level pack" it has better level design than Galaxy 2, therefore, it is the better game.

The creator of the video would agree with your perspective! He says very specifically that he values the perspective of someone in it for the level design preferring the sequel, and in the case of the typical course-clear games he would agree. The issue with Galaxy 2 is that it carries forward some parts of Galaxy that don't mesh well with that style (eg. half-hearted story, entering + exiting levels repeatedly, unrelated levels being bundled into a "galaxy", so on). I recommend watching.
 

mrmickfran

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
30,100
Gongaga
I remember first expressing my disappointment in Galaxy 2 back when it came out and people giving me weird looks

I still feel the same but it's nice to know that I'm not alone. Galaxy 2 never manages to soar as high as its predecessor and some stars leave a lot to be desired

And Green Stars are hot garbage
 
OP
OP
totofogo

totofogo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,543
Chicago
I just started watching the video and I can't believe that he used Super Mario Bros. 2 as "every new mario game shake things up"
C'mon, it's 2021, we all know that SMB2 wasn't a Mario game.

EDIT: ok, he corrects that later.

That said, I'm gonna continue watching even I think that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to convince me that SMG2 is worse than 1.
LOL I had the same reaction while watching and am glad he came around on that.
 

Rhete

Member
Oct 27, 2017
694
I think the divide in opinions between the two games depends on which you value more, story or gameplay.

For me Galaxy 1 becomes more than the sum of its parts. Galaxy 2 is very fun platforming and aspires to be nothing more than that.
 
OP
OP
totofogo

totofogo

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,543
Chicago
I remember first expressing my disappointment in Galaxy 2 back when it came out and people giving me weird looks

Yeah, Galaxy 2 totally came and went for me. Without even thinking too deeply about how I felt about the two or their differences... I didn't even bother to 100% Galaxy 2 nor ever returned to it, yet have returned to Galaxy many a time.

That said, Galaxy 2 is of course a wonderful game and I will happily return to it should it receive a Switch port. I didn't actively mean to shun it out, just so happened that when I'd return to galaxy 1 I'd usually "get my fill" there.
 

mrmickfran

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
30,100
Gongaga
Yeah, Galaxy 2 totally came and went for me. Without even thinking too deeply about how I felt about the two or their differences... I didn't even bother to 100% Galaxy 2 nor ever returned to it, yet have returned to Galaxy many a time.

That said, Galaxy 2 is of course a wonderful game and I will happily return to it should it receive a Switch port. I didn't actively mean to shun it out, just so happened that when I'd return to galaxy 1 I'd usually "get my fill" there.
I don't even have the motivation to play it anymore.

I 100% Galaxy 1 at least 3-4 times, Galaxy 2 I 100% once and stopped partway through the second time, something about it just feels lacking to me.
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,447
I think the divide in opinions between the two games depends on which you value more, story or gameplay.

For me Galaxy 1 becomes more than the sum of its parts. Galaxy 2 is very fun platforming and aspires to be nothing more than that.

I've never cared about the story in a Mario platformer before and I'm not sure why I would have started with the Galaxies. I just wanted more of the same (but refined) and that's what I got with Galaxy 2.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,257
Arizona
Galaxy and Galaxy 2 are the best 3D Mario games. Nothing even comes close, and I think the worst 3D Mario is still like an 8.5-9.0.

That said, watch this video. It's very well made (as all of his content is), and makes some good points about this being kind of a line in the sand where Mario became the more safe and sterile version we know now compared to the looser approach we saw in the GameCube and Wii era.
Safe and sterile is a weird assessment when the last Mario was Odyssey, which is probably the most oddball Super Mario there is outside of Sunshine.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,883
The Odyssey 2 equivalent of Galaxy 2 would be Cappy approaching mario saying "oh no bowser kidnapped peach and tiara, we must travel the world to find them!" (Not in cutscene format, with text boxes so no badass Mario and bowser intro cutscene)

no wedding plot or broodals since that was of course too much of a twist just a pure kidnapping with a cake as a reward maybe

being immediately thrown into the game's equivalent of the cascade kingdom (no cap kingdom intro slowly easing you in and immersing you),

and nothing equivalent to the spectacle and grandeur of the New Donk City festival, Ruined Dragon battle or final ending sequence

but better level design and more Cappy transformations

yes I'd love the game, but it'd be missing something.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,560
Watched the video. He makes a clear argument, but Galaxy 2 is still a perfect video game. There are cases where more of what works is just fine. Whether it "feels like" an expansion or not is irrelevant. There's a full game's worth of content there, and it's just as high quality as Galaxy 1. Especially considering the year prior Nintendo released NSMB Wii, one of the most sterile and derivative Mario games ever released, Galaxy 2 was more than welcome at that point.

Also, the video itself wasn't the greatest, it didn't have 42 minutes of ideas in there. YouTube essay channels need to realize longer doesn't mean better or more educated. This could have been a 15-20 min video
 

WeWereGiants

Member
Nov 8, 2017
428
I think King K is one of the better youtubers that make "retrospective" videos, I may not always agree with him but he argues his points well and keeps things interesting. This time I definitely agree with his point that the story and presentation of Galaxy 2 lets it down, I still think it's a great Platformer but it loses some of the magic the original had
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,792
I can't really understand why anyone would be disappointed in SMG2. But to each their own I guess.

It was a disappointment to me. Less gravity based stuff, even more linear than Galaxy 1, bigger focus on prankster comets, stupid chimp levels, worse versions of classic themed based levels like fire and ice than what Galaxy 1 had, worse music (though it's still quite good), over use of Cloud Mario which is my least favorite powerup in the Galaxy games, stupid Chimp challenges, and recycled content.

Galaxy 1 is a top 3 Mario game of all time, I wouldn't put Galaxy 2 in my top 10.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,883
It was a disappointment to me. Less gravity based stuff, even more linear than Galaxy 1, bigger focus on prankster comets, stupid chimp levels, worse versions of classic themed based levels like fire and ice than what Galaxy 1 had, worse music (though it's still quite good), over use of Cloud Mario which is my least favorite powerup in the Galaxy games, stupid Chimp challenges, and recycled content.

Galaxy 1 is a top 3 Mario game of all time, I wouldn't put Galaxy 2 in my top 10.
Galaxy 2 does get away with lots of recycled content because it's the first 3D Mario sequel I think.

It rips quite a few planets from Galaxy 1 (hell even Sunshine and 64 lol) and like 6 bosses from Galaxy 1
 

Garlic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,695
I honestly can't understand having a strong preference for either Galaxy 1 or 2, to me they are both halves of one beautiful whole (to the extent I often have trouble remembering which levels appeared in which game)
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,883
I'm now imagining a Galaxy 3 that's the culmination of the subseries' level design, with an epic atmosphere and story that ups the ante of even the first one. Perhaps against a new alien race (I'm surprised they didn't take the opportunity to introduce an intelligent alien villain race in Galaxy 1 to be honest. If bowser must be the villain, have him work alongside them like the broodals)

Rosalina back in full force to her Galaxy 1 higher cosmic being nature of course
 

Cass_Se

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,253
At release cutting all the fat and not having any story was definitely seen as not a bug but a feature. It definitely feels different after 3DL and 3DW, but people were largely done with Mario plots after Sunshine and Galaxy and Observatory hub world wasn't well received.

I didn't find Rosalina plot of SMG useless, I thought it was pretty cute. But it wasn't really what made SMG special and SMG2 improves on pretty much every aspect of the original game. It was certainly more than 'just a level pack', the creativity on display is exactly why Nintendo made it into a brand new game. I understand why some might dislike it but for me Galaxy 2 is pretty much a perfect game and all issues I have with it, which sure can be pointed out, are incredibly minute to how much amazing content it provides.
 

Subaru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
353
São Paulo, Brazil
Ok, I've watched the whole video and I'm gonna comment it:

1) "It should be called Super Mario Galaxy More"
(I'm gonna ignore NSMB series, ok?)
Nintendo doesn't make direct sequels to a mainline Mario Game since... SMB3, I guess?
Even Super Mario World have a different name because it does have a different approach (it's more focused on exploration than in platforming than SMB3).
Majora's Mask is not OoT 2, is a different game reusing assets.
So, I think Super Mario Galaxy 2 tells to me exactly what we are going to expect: more Super Mario Galaxy. I don't think changing the name would make any difference.

2) The atmosphere is better in SMG1
Yeah, that is undeniable. But that hub world is part of that and is TERRIBLY designed and it is by far the worst hub world in the Mario Series.
It's awful to navigate (specially to the upper areas), it's confusing when the comets appears, you have to go back and forth all the time... like, even when the game launched I hated how much time I spent searching for stuff/getting into the levels. It is a slog and it's not even fun because Mario's movement in Galaxy is not as great as in SM64 and Sunshine.
And I still love Peach's Castle and Delphino Island (even if that I don't like SMS nowadays)
I also didn't think that having a giant number in the center of the ship is something that builds up a lot of expectation.

I also think he values things that I can ignore in a Mario game.
Like, FFX-2 have an AMAZING combat in a game that I don't like the story/structure at all and that's terrible because what I expect from a JRPG is story, narrative, etc. The combat is important, not the MAIN focus. So, of course I prefer FFX even if I love FFX-2 combat.
For me, it's the oposite in Mario games, I expect levels to be FUN and to get to them really fast.
I think all that "atmosphere" sometimes gets in the way of the part that I really really want from a Mario game.

With all that said: his argument is perfect to talk about DKC series. I really think DKCR/TF atmosphere is way way way worse and DKC/DKC2/DKC3, and even if I think Tropical Freeze the best game of all, DKC2 is unique and special in a way that TF will never be.
Fun fact: I reviewed DKCR for a Nintendo magazine here in Brazil and it was difficult to give a score because the game is great but is not what I've wanted (in the end, I think I was fair).

3) "I love having time to breath"
Ok, I don't. I like intense games.
Yeah, I do like slower paced levels SOMETIMES but I don't miss it when we don't have. SMB3 is my favorite, at all.
That said: WTF he used that pengiun level as a good example, it is sooooo boring. Also I don't like that Spring Mario level either.
(and yes, I think most levels in SMG are great but SMG2 is another level)

4) I respect his opinion
I agree that Miyamoto's philosophy is not good all the time and it was good to see a Mario game going next level in terms of narrative.
But it is SO hard do find that spot that the game have a good narrative and it's not terribly cringe that I really can live without any development.
Oh god, remember what we saw in Super Mario Sunshine? All those terrible cutscenes?
Think about Sonic games too.
Yeah, that's not an excuse for not trying, and they really nailed in SMG. But when I think about SMG I never think about the supernova at the ending or Rosalina's storybook. I think about great levels and great songs - something we also have in SMG2.

Oh and he praised Bowser levels for trying to be more "traditional" pltaforming challenge. Yeah, I love them for this. But this concept is not new in 3D Mario, is actually an evolution of Bowser's levels in SM64 - they also share the same song ;-)

TLDR; I understand his points but I don't care about most of them.
 
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PKrockin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
I don't feel like I really learned anything from this video, even as someone who played Galaxy 2 only briefly. To me, Galaxy 2 is New Super Luigi U. You should go into it with the expectation that this is a big ol' expansion for SMG1 before Nintendo could do DLC. Seems fair enough for someone to prefer either game.

Personally, I found Mario very boring and unchallenging to control in the Galaxy games so for me they're both down near the bottom of the pile around NSMBDS and SM3DL.

If there's one thing I can really agree with him on, it's that Nintendo should stop retreading this sleep-inducing Bowser kidnaps Peach formula. Somehow 3D World managed to feel like a breath of fresh air just because Bowser kidnapped some fairies instead. I would love to see Wario butt heads with Mario again or at least make an appearance, but it seems we'll never see him interact with other Mario characters in a meaningful way ever again--he's doomed to his little corner pumping out increasingly shitty minigame collections.
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
I love King K's content, although he does seem to be more critical over positive. But I dig that. And I'm excited to jump into this video...mostly because SMG2 is so close to my heart.
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
I don't really like how he focuses only on immersion and story. That really isn't important for a mainline Mario game. Galaxy is kind of a slog to get through because of those aspects and I am glad Galaxy 2 removed them. The pacing is substantially better and so is the level design and difficulty curve. Galaxy 2 is by far the superior experience.

I have nothing to be disappointed with in regards to Galaxy 2. It is the ideal sequel.

Much of this video had to be watched at 1.5X speed because a lot of it was meandering and could have been reduced drastically.