reksveks

Member
May 17, 2022
4,037
For any game, trusting an aggregated user score is always a bad idea I'm my experience. Lots of people can only gave a 1 or 5 star review, so I find reading the actual text of their reviews tends to yield better results in general

You could argue that the chuds would be review bombing because of the latest censorship "controversy".

Yeah, had a quick check of the reviews like the first page and there is alot of talk of beautiful main character and not alot of #freestellarblade. There was one 1/10 based on the censorship.

still, being an exclusive AND the controversy surrounding it, was expecting it to be review bombed

That's true. I suspect they have ended up not caring enough about the censorship or think it's not worth giving the 'woke mob' a W here.

It doesn't contain the voices of game developers and groups trying to control them. It's full of fascinating characters that you used to enjoy and wonderful combat music

Hmmm... They are trying to get subtle
 

StayHandsome

Member
Nov 30, 2017
778
I don't understand why you guys are determined to read my review in such bad faith. I wasn't using patriarchy as a "valid excuse" for the design decisions. Do you miss how I call Korea's standards rigid and absurd? I'm a victim of it too. I'm saying it's a direct result of it.

Also I put "male gaze" in quotes because I'm literally quoting the headline.

You do call the standards rigid and absurd but it's ultimately a single line, which is followed by what amounts to a lot more text, including quotes from Kim that start to sound closer to an endorsement. For example, you imply that it's a positive to have Korean representation, but I would argue that Eve doesn't represent Korean women, she represents a sexual fantasy perpetuated by Korean society and pop culture. The actual Korean woman, a gravure model, used as a "body model" for Eve still had to be tweaked to fix her imperfect proportions, and her face entirely replaced to satisfy Kim. Kim's argument about it being a "fantasy world" that shouldn't be parallel to our own reality is, frankly, hogwash. You can have a very attractive character that isn't restricted by attempts to make them look realistic but still doesn't go to such an absurd degree. We all know there's a line somewhere, where it crosses from a character being visually appealing, to embarrassing boner bait.

Edit: I edited the post to be (slightly) less combative and hopefully more constructive
 
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intradictus

Member
Sep 17, 2023
230
The main release has continued to male me appreciate the gameplay a lot more, but I just hit a main story "reveal" and the story just keeps making me hate it more and more
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,890
UK
You could argue that the chuds would be review bombing because of the latest censorship "controversy".
And they are, but it's tiny. At least on metacritic user reviews.

This game is a cultural beaken!
H7GUyK.jpeg


"Censorship"
H7GXTZ.jpeg


"False advertising"
H7GyZi.jpeg


"Day one patch that takes away from the games original vision the devs wanted it to be"
"Sealed copies will prob be worth something"
H7GwUm.jpeg
 

StayHandsome

Member
Nov 30, 2017
778
User Banned (2 Weeks): Disingenuous comparisons; conflating separate countries/cultures over issues of representation; prior bans for inappropriate commentary
Continued from above post, here is what irks me about the idea of Eve representing Koreans:

Even Kojima, who is one of the worst offenders in the industry when it comes to including base pandering in games, still managed to do better than Hyung-Tae Kim on this point. When he used real life models to base the MGS4 bosses on, the end result was a gamified version of the model that still very closely resembled the person they captured in the studio. And she's still obviously beautiful.

IMG-3567.jpg


Yet Shift Up went through the song and dance of using a Korean woman for their body model, presumably because she's large-breasted, but here is how her face is reflected in Eve's:

IMG-3569.jpg


(It isn't). So I don't buy this idea that Eve is giving Korean fans some kind of much-needed representation. All she's representing is what the Korean man who designed her wants his women to look like. And having women on staff at the developer is not a counter-point at all, unless it was a woman director who asked the artists to come up with that design and workshopped it to the final result we got.

I feel like, when even Kojima is less pernicious than you, you've really done fucked up.
 

Spagward

Member
Apr 24, 2024
137
User Banned (3 Days): Body shaming
The real Korean rep is Tachy who looks like she went through that horrible trendy eyelid surgery.
 

Loud Wrong

Banned
Feb 24, 2020
15,704
Even with review bombing over…lol….censorship, it's sitting at 9.0 after 1400 reviews. 4.8 on the PS store despite the calls to refund the game.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
You do call the standards rigid and absurd but it's ultimately a single line, which is followed by what amounts to a lot more text, including quotes from Kim that start to sound closer to an endorsement. For example, you imply that it's a positive to have Korean representation, but I would argue that Eve doesn't represent Korean women, she represents a sexual fantasy perpetuated by Korean society and pop culture. The actual Korean woman, a gravure model, used as a "body model" for Eve still had to be tweaked to fix her imperfect proportions, and her face entirely replaced to satisfy Kim. Kim's argument about it being a "fantasy world" that shouldn't be parallel to our own reality is, frankly, hogwash. You can have a very attractive character that isn't restricted by attempts to make them look realistic but still doesn't go to such an absurd degree. We all know there's a line somewhere, where it crosses from a character being visually appealing, to embarrassing boner bait.

Edit: I edited the post to be (slightly) less combative and hopefully more constructive

what is the line to be drawn? for me i see stellar blades ridiculous and absurd sexuality as part of a tradition of a fantasy storytelling akin to the Heavy Metal magazines and Frank Frazzeta. i have to admit i smell some very familiar xenophobia from some of these criticisms (not saying that's you).

and of course she represents a sexual fantasy perpetuated by a patriarchal korean culture. that's exactly the point i tried to make in my article. you are literally agreeing with me, i just didn't use the words you would've used.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
Continued from above post, here is what irks me about the idea of Eve representing Koreans:

Even Kojima, who is one of the worst offenders in the industry when it comes to including base pandering in games, still managed to do better than Hyung-Tae Kim on this point. When he used real life models to base the MGS4 bosses on, the end result was a gamified version of the model that still very closely resembled the person they captured in the studio. And she's still obviously beautiful.

IMG-3567.jpg


Yet Shift Up went through the song and dance of using a Korean woman for their body model, presumably because she's large-breasted, but here is how her face is reflected in Eve's:

IMG-3569.jpg


(It isn't). So I don't buy this idea that Eve is giving Korean fans some kind of much-needed representation. All she's representing is what the Korean man who designed her wants his women to look like. And having women on staff at the developer is not a counter-point at all, unless it was a woman director who asked the artists to come up with that design and workshopped it to the final result we got.

I feel like, when even Kojima is less pernicious than you, you've really done fucked up.

ok are you really telling koreans that they are wrong for feeling the way they do? is that what you're doing?

edit: and using a Japanese example to make your point, which is pretty insensitive given the history between Japan and Korea. Korea was raped and has lived in the shadow of Japan for centuries, but we can't have one video game without it being compared to what Japan does.
 
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Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,330
Continued from above post, here is what irks me about the idea of Eve representing Koreans:

Even Kojima, who is one of the worst offenders in the industry when it comes to including base pandering in games, still managed to do better than Hyung-Tae Kim on this point. When he used real life models to base the MGS4 bosses on, the end result was a gamified version of the model that still very closely resembled the person they captured in the studio. And she's still obviously beautiful.

IMG-3567.jpg


Yet Shift Up went through the song and dance of using a Korean woman for their body model, presumably because she's large-breasted, but here is how her face is reflected in Eve's:

IMG-3569.jpg


(It isn't). So I don't buy this idea that Eve is giving Korean fans some kind of much-needed representation. All she's representing is what the Korean man who designed her wants his women to look like. And having women on staff at the developer is not a counter-point at all, unless it was a woman director who asked the artists to come up with that design and workshopped it to the final result we got.

I feel like, when even Kojima is less pernicious than you, you've really done fucked up.

she is the body model for Eve, im pretty sure they never specificed she'd be her face model too. This is fairly common in games.
For example, in RE4 Remake Ashley has seperate body and face models and even VA.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,901
User Banned (3 Days): dismissive commentary
Bringing up (checks notes) war crimes in order to win an argument about (checks notes) video games. OK then
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,070
Bringing up (checks notes) war crimes in order to win an argument about (checks notes) video games. OK then
I find it strange for someone so familiar with metal lyrics (full of war and war crime references) to just straight away write off his sentiments as a mere tool to win an argument. Art is shaped by our history, and the way we look at everything we consume is fully shaped by our history too, whether we want it or not.

I'm from Argentina, and this reminds me that my stupid fucking ultra right-wing, Trump fanatic, Elon ass-sucker, clown of a President is constantly telling us that the disappeared on the last dictatorship in my country are just a tool for human rights organizations to steal away money from the government (he also constantly says a whole lot of different bullshit about the matter). He's even on a "cultural battle" to "defeat" the "communist tale" of the "supposedly dissapeared" that is just part of "a bigger machine to ban the progress" that we would get with "true capitalism" once and for all!! lmao. This sad joke of a President believes that a lot of people here that still remembers very well what happened are just trying to win an argument against neoliberalism.

Anyways, back on track, wasn't the Japanese war crimes on Korea a topic in this very forum not long ago, regarding Rise of the Ronin and some commentary by its director or something? I don't think it's tonally out of place in a gaming discussion outside of this particular title even (which I have no intention of playing, by the way).
 
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StayHandsome

Member
Nov 30, 2017
778
I would concede that it was an insensitive point to make if the game wasn't already drawing heavy, intentional influence from Japanese games like Dark Souls, Bayonetta and Nier Automata, not to mention the crony relationships between the creators of the above games and Hyung-Tae Kim. Kojima and Yoko Taro get the same kind of shit that Kim is getting, they're all cut from the same cloth, when it comes to misogyny and sexism. Not to mention that the game itself is being published by a Japanese company.

To the other point, if a game came out in 2024 that channeled Heavy Metal artists like Julie Bell, Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta it would get absolutely slammed for the amount of shackled, naked damsels that appear in their art. But even saying that, when you look at classic fantasy art from those artists, you still see some amount of muscular, athletic bodies on the women warriors, and a general appreciation of human anatomy - something that isn't present in SB's porcelain sex-doll aesthetic. So while they're both ostensibly fantasy, the vibe is totally different in a very obvious way.
 

Aske

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,752
Canadia
I really didn't vibe with the combat in the demo, and the English VA combined with what sounds like a lack of compelling characters or story means I'll probably skip it. Which sucks, because that gif of Tachi's battle armour with three holoface had my imagination itching for context.

It sounds like if you're into the combat (which is objectively solid) and the aesthetic and music, it's a really good time; but I wanted more hack and slash, and it's too Soulsy for my taste.

Good to see a mobile gatcha dev transition so smoothly into the single player action-adventure space though, especially since this is the first Korean game to do so.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,140
User Banned (3 Days): Dismissive commentary
I find it strange for someone so familiar with metal lyrics (full of war and war crime references) to just straight away write off his sentiments as a mere tool to win an argument. Art is shaped by our history, and the way we look at everything we consume is fully shaped by our history too, whether we want it or not.

I'm from Argentina, and this reminds me that my stupid fucking ultra right-wing, Trump fanatic, Elon ass-sucker, clown of a President is constantly telling us that the disappeared on the last dictatorship in my country are just a tool for human rights organizations to steal away money from the government (he also constantly says a whole lot of different bullshit about the matter). He's even on a "cultural battle" to "defeat" the "communist tale" of the "supposedly dissapeared" that is just part of "a bigger machine to ban the progress" that we would get with "true capitalism" once and for all!! lmao. This sad joke of a President believes that a lot of people here that still remembers very well what happened are just trying to win an argument against neoliberalism.

Anyways, back on track, wasn't the Japanese war crimes on Korea a topic in this very forum not long ago, regarding Rise of the Ronin and some commentary by its director or something? I don't think it's tonally out of place in a gaming discussion outside of this particular title even (which I have no intention of playing, by the way).

We can go into the specifics of how Confucianism evolved differently between China, Japan, and Korea and the impact that it had on patriarchal social structures but clutching your pearls when a Korean game studio that makes pervy games gets compared to a Japanese or Chinese studios that ALSO make games for the exactly same audience is not an argument.

This is the same company that made hundreds of millions on the butt-flashing Nikke game. There are almost SEVENTY THOUSAND incels that signed that (American) censorship petition because of minor bits of extra fabric being added to some Stellar Blade costumes. I think it's fair to say that this isn't an accomplishment in Korean cultural expression.
 

Dever

Member
Dec 25, 2019
5,414
Continued from above post, here is what irks me about the idea of Eve representing Koreans:

Even Kojima, who is one of the worst offenders in the industry when it comes to including base pandering in games, still managed to do better than Hyung-Tae Kim on this point. When he used real life models to base the MGS4 bosses on, the end result was a gamified version of the model that still very closely resembled the person they captured in the studio. And she's still obviously beautiful.

IMG-3567.jpg


Yet Shift Up went through the song and dance of using a Korean woman for their body model, presumably because she's large-breasted, but here is how her face is reflected in Eve's:

IMG-3569.jpg


(It isn't). So I don't buy this idea that Eve is giving Korean fans some kind of much-needed representation. All she's representing is what the Korean man who designed her wants his women to look like. And having women on staff at the developer is not a counter-point at all, unless it was a woman director who asked the artists to come up with that design and workshopped it to the final result we got.

I feel like, when even Kojima is less pernicious than you, you've really done fucked up.

I'm not sure they ever claimed to be using her face, though. Which is fine. I do think Eve would be way more interesting if she looked like the model, though. As it stands, she has a very generic "Disney princess" face. Even a character like Quiet has a very distinct look, because Stefanie Joosten has a distinct look. And for Fragile you can see how they went to great lengths to capture Lea Seydoux exactly as she is, even including things like the gap between her front teeth. Eve would never have a gap in her teeth, because something like that is not part of that perfect beauty standard they're going for here. Idk, she's just bland imo.

I don't think her body looks like the model either, though. It looks like they scanned for maybe some basic proportions but then uhh "adjusted" certain parts.
 

dark494

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,673
Seattle
I don't think her body looks like the model either, though. It looks like they scanned for maybe some basic proportions but then uhh "adjusted" certain parts.
I've seen this parroted around with the screenshot from the video the devs put out, but imo if you go to her instagram and see how she actually looks in her day-to-day life and her modeling career, she looks pretty much exactly like the model.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,901
This comment confuses me.
It is understandable that a Korean may not want to be judged based off a Japanese game. The hate is still real and raw despite the exchange of pop culture being on the uptick.
Comparing Stellar Blade to Nier has been done countlessly everywhere including on Era (hell, everyone wanted that Rear Automata OT title, remember?), including by the dev himself who is buddy with Yoko Taro. So no, I don't think it's appropriate to invoke sexual war crimes largely committed against women in order to defend a titty action game inspired by various other titty action games. I hope this clears up your confusion.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,172
Tokyo
Comparing Stellar Blade to Nier has been done countlessly everywhere including on Era (hell, everyone wanted that Rear Automata OT title, remember?), including by the dev himself who is buddy with Yoko Taro. So no, I don't think it's appropriate to invoke sexual war crimes largely committed against women in order to defend a titty action game inspired by various other titty action games. I hope this clears up your confusion.

I may be reading his post wrong since even in his own review he compares SB to other Japanese titles. However, I think he wasn't comparing the games themselves just the mindset between the two countries and how Korea and Japan does things that is what brought the offense on. I can understand Koreans not wanting their culture evaluated by what Japan does. I can also understand if I am totally missing the mark of Gene's post. But that is just how I saw what he was trying to say.
 

thomas_cale

Member
May 22, 2020
632
I've seen this parroted around with the screenshot from the video the devs put out, but imo if you go to her instagram and see how she actually looks in her day-to-day life and her modeling career, she looks pretty much exactly like the model.
For sure, her ass/proportions also just magically grow in real life when putting on different outfits to make it look even more sexual.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
Comparing Stellar Blade to Nier has been done countlessly everywhere including on Era (hell, everyone wanted that Rear Automata OT title, remember?), including by the dev himself who is buddy with Yoko Taro. So no, I don't think it's appropriate to invoke sexual war crimes largely committed against women in order to defend a titty action game inspired by various other titty action games. I hope this clears up your confusion.

are you Korean? or Asian at all to give you this kind of authority to speak on how i should feel? do you have family thats tried to create art and express themselves only for everything they do be compared to something produced in Japan's economy? tell me your historic in this topic.

edit: there is a direct loud example of racism against Koreans posted in this thread and you're really lecturing me on how i should feel? this is just very sadly dismissive and deeply incurious about other cultural perspectives.

also no i wasn't just talking about sexual war crimes. Japan tried to colonize Korea, destroy our language and culture. forgive me for expressing some cultural pride in seeing our language thrive on a global (Japan distributed no less) platform.
 
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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,901
are you Korean? or Asian at all to give you this kind of authority to speak on how i should feel? do you have family thats tried to create art and express themselves only for everything they do be compared to something produced in Japan's economy? tell me your historic in this topic.

edit: there is a direct loud example of racism against Koreans posted in this thread and you're really lecturing me on how i should feel? this is just very sadly dismissive and deeply incurious about other cultural perspectives.
I didn't say anything about how anyone should feel concerning Korean representation at all nor am I purporting to speak with any kind of "authority". But you really don't see how invoking incredibly serious and deeply violent crimes against women when discussing a sexist video game is an uncomfortable escalation of rhetoric? As a woman this is what I take issue with.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,727
Wait until Gamers find out that literally every game ever made has been changed - hence why it is called game Development
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
I didn't say anything about how anyone should feel concerning Korean representation at all nor am I purporting to speak with any kind of "authority". But you really don't see how invoking incredibly serious and deeply violent crimes against women when discussing a sexist video game is an uncomfortable escalation of rhetoric? As a woman this is what I take issue with.

"as a woman" ok and as a Korean i take issue with being lectured about my blood. and please see my latest edit.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
Here's the issue guys. I was simply trying to offer background on the Korean culture that produced it. I literally agree in so many words (and in the links I provide that are meant to be educational) that Korea's beauty culture is patriarchal.

It's alarming to me that many of you hone in on invaliding the Korean part of my review specifically. Of course I bring up Nier in my review and other Japanese culture. That's part of the thread of Korean culture finally trying to stand out despite the influences and cultural hangups. Of course STellar Blade is imperfect Korean representation. Nothing could be perfect. The point of equal representation is to allow our cultures to make mistakes, our bombs. Look, we have a very messy way of interepreting beauty. But here is just one example of our messy problematic yet wonderful and interesting culture. This is my culture. I love Koreans and being Koreans, despite how much i disagree with our culture.
 

Loud Wrong

Banned
Feb 24, 2020
15,704
Here's the issue guys. I was simply trying to offer background on the Korean culture that produced it. I literally agree in so many words (and in the links I provide that are meant to be educational) that Korea's beauty culture is patriarchal.

It's alarming to me that many of you hone in on invaliding the Korean part of my review specifically. Of course I bring up Nier in my review and other Japanese culture. That's part of the thread of Korean culture finally trying to stand out despite the influences and cultural hangups. Of course STellar Blade is imperfect Korean representation. Nothing could be perfect. The point of equal representation is to allow our cultures to make mistakes, our bombs. Look, we have a very messy way of interepreting beauty. But here is just one example of our messy problematic yet wonderful and interesting culture. This is my culture. I love Koreans and being Koreans, despite how much i disagree with our culture.
Well said.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,901
"as a woman" ok and as a Korean i take issue with being lectured about my blood. and please see my latest edit.
OK. You specifically mentioned the word rape in your original post, which is what I was commenting on. Not your identity.

Here's the issue guys. I was simply trying to offer background on the Korean culture that produced it. I literally agree in so many words (and in the links I provide that are meant to be educational) that Korea's beauty culture is patriarchal.

It's alarming to me that many of you hone in on invaliding the Korean part of my review specifically. Of course I bring up Nier in my review and other Japanese culture. That's part of the thread of Korean culture finally trying to stand out despite the influences and cultural hangups. Of course STellar Blade is imperfect Korean representation. Nothing could be perfect. The point of equal representation is to allow our cultures to make mistakes, our bombs. Look, we have a very messy way of interepreting beauty. But here is just one example of our messy problematic yet wonderful and interesting culture. This is my culture. I love Koreans and being Koreans, despite how much i disagree with our culture.
I don't really disagree with any of that, for what it's worth!
I'd be curious to see what you think of Lies of P. It's a great game but I don't remember seeing much discussion about Korean culture concerning this game at the time, but maybe I missed it. That's probably getting a bit off-topic, though.
 

ScionN7

Member
Oct 26, 2019
1,603
Here's the issue guys. I was simply trying to offer background on the Korean culture that produced it. I literally agree in so many words (and in the links I provide that are meant to be educational) that Korea's beauty culture is patriarchal.

It's alarming to me that many of you hone in on invaliding the Korean part of my review specifically. Of course I bring up Nier in my review and other Japanese culture. That's part of the thread of Korean culture finally trying to stand out despite the influences and cultural hangups. Of course STellar Blade is imperfect Korean representation. Nothing could be perfect. The point of equal representation is to allow our cultures to make mistakes, our bombs. Look, we have a very messy way of interepreting beauty. But here is just one example of our messy problematic yet wonderful and interesting culture. This is my culture. I love Koreans and being Koreans, despite how much i disagree with our culture.

Gene your input is appreciated as always. Thank you for being you. Loved your Review of the game btw.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
OK. You specifically mentioned the word rape in your original post, which is what I was commenting on. Not your identity.


I don't really disagree with any of that, for what it's worth!
I'd be curious to see what you think of Lies of P. It's a great game but I don't remember seeing much discussion about Korean culture concerning this game at the time, but maybe I missed it. That's probably getting a bit off-topic, though.

i loved lies of p. i adored the character eugenie and the fact that she gives you a traditional korean sword which just so happens to be the best sword in the game. that's a true authentic splash of korean history and centers our warrior past, which often gets overlooked. so much so that everyone falsely calls that sword a katana lol

edit: and for my word usage yes i can see why you could get that message and im sorry for invoking that. i am from Guam as well so my resentment against colonialism runs deep and hot, so i've always used strong language to describe it.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,901
i loved lies of p. i adored the character eugenie and the fact that she gives you a traditional korean sword which just so happens to be the best sword in the game. that's a true authentic splash of korean history and centers our warrior past, which often gets overlooked. so much so that everyone falsely calls that sword a katana lol
Nice. I used that sword extensively too xD And Eugenie is indeed adorable, probably the most likeable character in the game.

edit: and for my word usage yes i can see why you could get that message and im sorry for invoking that. i am from Guam as well so my resentment against colonialism runs deep and hot, so i've always used strong language to describe it.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,941
That's part of the thread of Korean culture finally trying to stand out despite the influences and cultural hangups.
I am curious as to what you consider to be the stand out features of the Korean beauty standards that are presented in Stellar Blade. I understand that the whole of the character designs reflect the beauty standards, but many of the features overlap with beauty standards elsewhere, so it seems that there should be some set of features or combination of features that are specifically Korean.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
I am curious as to what you consider to be the stand out features of the Korean beauty standards that are presented in Stellar Blade. I understand that the whole of the character designs reflect the beauty standards, but many of the features overlap with beauty standards elsewhere, so it seems that there should be some set of features or combination of features that are specifically Korean.

they're already in my review. the unfair and omnipresent pressure to be perfect and attain conventionalized, commercialized perfect beauty. it's a different kind of pressure than you'd find even in Hollywood.

i don't know how else to describe it other than also Eve and Adam have distinctly Korean faces (Lily looks like she's from Final Fantasy). What do you want me to do, break out the measuring tape?

This ongoing pushback and insistence of me trying to further break down Korean beauty standards continues to be weird and oft putting, especially when my piece offers many links to further your reading and education. there's clearly a deep and seemingly willful ignorance of the Asian diaspora here.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
We can go into the specifics of how Confucianism evolved differently between China, Japan, and Korea and the impact that it had on patriarchal social structures but clutching your pearls when a Korean game studio that makes pervy games gets compared to a Japanese or Chinese studios that ALSO make games for the exactly same audience is not an argument.

This is the same company that made hundreds of millions on the butt-flashing Nikke game. There are almost SEVENTY THOUSAND incels that signed that (American) censorship petition because of minor bits of extra fabric being added to some Stellar Blade costumes. I think it's fair to say that this isn't an accomplishment in Korean cultural expression.

the Korean government just celebrated the release of stellar blade. are you Korean? i am a former president of the Asian American Journalists Association in DC, and we oversee issues of Asian representation in media and popular culture. where do you have the authority to call a Korean product "not an accomplishment in Korean cultural expression?"

edit: it is simply more honest and less problematic if you would simply call it a sexist portrayal of women without erasing the Koreanness of it. you don't have to focus on the Korean aspect at all to criticize this game, yet you insist on erasing it.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
5,140
the Korean government just celebrated the release of stellar blade. are you Korean? i am a former president of the Asian American Journalists Association in DC, and we oversee issues of Asian representation in media and popular culture. where do you have the authority to call a Korean product "not an accomplishment in Korean cultural expression?"

edit: it is simply more honest and less problematic if you would simply call it a sexist portrayal of women without erasing the Koreanness of it. you don't have to focus on the Korean aspect at all to criticize this game, yet you insist on erasing it.
Nah, I'm an American-born Iranian dual-national but I grew up in the Bay Area and actually my best friend for 15 years is Korean. I'll tell you what I tell him on probably a weekly basis:

We have the stupidest fucking governments.

Korea has plenty of globally popular cultural products. They don't need to add this one to their all-stars team.
 

genepark

Member
Oct 15, 2019
61
Washington, D.C.
Nah, I'm an American-born Iranian dual-national but I grew up in the Bay Area and actually my best friend for 15 years is Korean. I'll tell you what I tell him on probably a weekly basis:

We have the stupidest fucking governments.

Korea has plenty of globally popular cultural products. They don't need to add this one to their all-stars team.

thanks for explaining your ignorance, profound arrogance in speaking against another culture you know nothing about. really broke out the "i have a korean friend" trope too.
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,228
Morizora's Forest
I'm going to say somethings on a few points I've seen in the past few pages. Aka Snormy mansplains and threadwhines so you don't have to and hopefully we might move along a bit better.

Just because a person is used to base a character off doesn't mean the character needs to be 100% accurate to the person. Just link in drawn art, you can use your own creative liberty to make changes if the project allows it. This shouldn't be interpreted as knock on the person which the character is based on no matter how the character turns out. Besides, a person has a million things going on including cosmetics, lighting, health, age and all the other humanely things that is more or less irrelevant to a model.

When it comes to feelings of representation... Just... Be considerate and know that you don't have to understand it to accept it. Sometimes feeling represented is a weird thing, it might not be because of the model, the voice, the ideas or characterizations or what not. It could be any number of things or just the fact that it is an attempt that has some semblance of success and puts your people in the limelight of recognition for the moment that you may feel proud of, disregarding of the other issues. Additionally, we might consider other representations in our media current. Name another playable Korean protagonist woman that isn't an optional choice in a game that is so marketed in the past decade. Slim pickings certainly given that just representation of women alone as a criteria isn't as strong as it could be.

It really isn't anybody's place to judge what others feel represents them based on your own understanding. Least of all if we don't even have any skin in said game. Koreans are not monolithic. Women are not monolithic. Obviously you can still critique a character that others feel represents them and you can offer some critique related to that. If you think such representation is poor or harmful etc. If you think others are a better example that is also fine but it isn't our place to shut people down for finding representation in our hobby. Just like it isn't my wife's job to tell your wife what she should feel about Eve. We can exchange ideas while we stay in our lanes.

Finally. Yes. Comparing Japan/ese and Korea/n can be insensitive. Many other such insensitive comparisons exist in our world. These are not to be dismissed nor should they be used to shut down conversations. It is all too common to engage into a topic we are not equipped to get into with the nuance it deserves. It is ok to acknowledge these and admit to blunders of insensitivity as an honest mistake. Comparisons are used to illustrate a point, we can try to find other examples or try to focus on the example without import or emphasis to their origins. Either way we're not getting into what is and isn't sensitive because this is largely personal and a derail. Again, focus on your points and not the side issues that crop up. You should acknowledge these and move on from them and not double down and be a dickhead. You can be 100% right in the results from your comparison and still be the biggest asshole in the room.

And yes. Try to remember that taking the opportunity to criticise a thing to simultaneously exercise some racism/bigotry is not uncommon. It is a bit of a systemic issue as well as some points can sometimes be dog whistling and mixed into the general discourse. Often times we get caught up in the discourse and can easily miss some bigger pictures, especially because they are often not relevant to us (we are not on the receiving end of it). If you want an example from the past we can look the example that is Genshin Impact. During its pre-release the world was very much all about how it is a knock-off China product of BoTW. You can find media pieces from the time that says just as much in various different words. Talking shit about products from China is a long running systemic dog whistling. It isn't not that there are no shit products or rip-off scams from China. It is that the immediate conclusion and association, the stereotyping etc that comes with it. Countries reverse engineer and take inspiration from successful things. China has also been a country of major global production, many items of excellent quality were produced to requirements in China. All countries have scammers and people trying to make a quick buck. There are many other things such as history or cultural issues or whatever else. The point is that everything the staff post says about difficulties in engaging on the topic of sexism is also true for things such as this. I'm not expecting everyone to see the issue right away and know how to navigate around it. I'm asking that when these issues happen, we acknowledge them and approach them with understanding and the sensibility it deserves. There are no easy solutions to these. It is takes diligence, patience, acknowledgement and engagement in good faith from all.
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,941
they're already in my review. the unfair and omnipresent pressure to be perfect and attain conventionalized, commercialized perfect beauty. it's a different kind of pressure than you'd find even in Hollywood.

i don't know how else to describe it other than also Eve and Adam have distinctly Korean faces (Lily looks like she's from Final Fantasy). What do you want me to do, break out the measuring tape?
I did not have much time to flesh out my thoughts with that post, and I apologize. I'm glad you pointed out that Lily looks like she is from Final Fantasy. It makes the rest of this post easier to write than if had I tried to write it out before.

When I saw the character designs (the faces, to be specific) for Stellar Blade, my thought was that their faces look different from characters in games of a similar graphic style that are made here (in China). And it was not because Stellar Blade had higher graphic fidelity. If I had to specify a reason, it is that some combination of features make them look sharper in terms of facial features, while Chinese characters tend to have smoother features. But I am not making the comparison from a Korean point of view, so I thought it would be nice to compare and contrast to see if we have different points of focus, and where they might be.

Korea has plenty of globally popular cultural products. They don't need to add this one to their all-stars team.
The AAA console space is the prestige game space, with the highest concentration of budget, technical expertise, and media attention. It is dominated by Western and Japanese companies, much like most other high tech industries. It should not be hard to see why Koreans might want to make a big deal of a well-known entry into this space.