Luke wasn't going to kill Ben, it was a fleeting moment, he said so himself.
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
Hence why its so infuriating. The movie, hell even the fucking trailer STRAIGHT UP TELLS THE AUDIENCE "This is not going to go the way you think."
And yet the fanboys apparently are deaf or thought that line was just for a cool sound bite. Spoiler, its not.
True, killing off Snoke was also a weird move to me, turning his entire character into a quick, mildly decent plot device for Kylo. All that's seemingly left of the "dark side" is Kylo and he's not even that interested in "evil empire" compared to his personal vendettas. Since they aren't bringing Leah back there's no one even left for him to kill. It feels like the scale of the stakes have been dramatically lowered, where it's going to be a primarily a fight between Rey and Kylo simply because they're the only two forcer users left to fight over anything in the first place.
I guess you're conveniently forgetting the time Luke tried to cause a hematoma by strangling that alien's breast on the island?
Maybe think a little bit before you post
Uh... what?
It's hard to see Luke (I always see the good in people even to a fault) Skywalker from OT reduced to some weirdo standing over their nephew's (whose never done anything evil mind you) bed debating murdering them.
That's the "not my Luke" stuff.
At the end of the movie he's clearly not just interested in personal vendettas. He tells Luke that he's going to destroy him, Rey, and everything. He tells Rey he wants to let the past die and burn everything down. He's descended deeper into madness which makes things very interesting for the next one. Everyone has abandoned him and he is truly alone. The stakes have never been higher for him.
He didn't debate murdering him. Kylo's vision was not what actually happened. He lit the saber almost on instinct when sensing his thoughts and he immediately regretted it the second he hit the switch
Yup, stupid frustrating
I got peeved over how someone suggested that the Rogue one director should have done 8 as "he at least understood the visual style of OT"
Funny how they don't mention writing though...
There's like 30 years of time that goes by... It's pretty easy to think that Luke ran headfirst (that's what Luke does) boldly into training a new Jedi Order despite having zero background nor the temperament for teaching and couldn't deal with the adversity that came with it because you can't fight your way through everything... like remember Vader turned because of watching his son getting tortured it was Luke's will and not his oratory or persuasion skills that turned Vader... so it's easy for me to see that he;d have no idea how to handle his sister's kid going darker than Vader.
He "understood" the visual style of OT because he was making a direct prequel to it that ended literally as the OT began.
ST is 30 years after the OT. It should look different.
Why do you guys act like that saves it from not being really really dumb and an awful characterization?
You two may have forgotten the scene. Luke felt the darkness/future, thought for a second, opened his lightsaber, wanted to kill Ben, then gave up/regretted it. That's the problem. People thinks that scenario doesn't match Luke's characterization. And I agree, it's horrible.
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It's not though. One mistake cost him a lot, it's not awful characterization.
Though I kinda think we should've seen a longer flashback without the Rashomon-esque reveals.
Some fanboys are like that Simpsons focus group picture. They don't know what they want and they like the old thing but give them something new but not too new
Eesh, this comes off even more cringey and fan fic seeing it written out like that.
I had to eye roll in the theater when Luke (whose been right there with Vader and the friggin Emperor) said that about never sensing that much power/darkness whatever before.
Ugh
Yes for a split second he wanted to... a split second the dark side tempted him but he immediately resisted... hence he was never going to actually kill Ben.
I really liked Luke's moment of failure actually. I wasn't happy that he did it, but it felt true to real life that as people age they start to fear the new generation of youth, and it also felt like it came out of the same kind of fear that Yoda had about Anakin and Luke falling to the dark side and that seems to exist for every Jedi trainee. Yoda never acted on those fears in such a way, but I think that makes sense for Yoda's fear of Anakin considering Yoda probably felt safe that the strength of the entire Jedi order would help make sure that the worst would not happen, whereas Luke is all alone with Ben. Yoda was alone with Luke as well, but I never really got the feeling that Luke was close to falling to the the dark side in the same way that Anakin was, so Yoda didn't really have a reason to contemplate murdering Luke.
You keep referring to "they" like some committee made this movie. The movie was written by Rian Johnson and no path forward was laid out for him by Disney, Lucasfilm, Kathleen Kennedy or J.J. Abrams. He wrote the story he felt was best as a continuation of TFA. It's that simple.
Because it isn't a dumb characterization. Luke always saw the good in everyone, but he isn't Mother Theresa, and that was evident in the OT.
In particular, he's very reactive to any threat against his friends. He abandons Yoda's training when he gets the darth vader vision. Then he gives into the dark side in the final confrontation with the Emperor when Darth Vader threatens Leia. If you want Luke to go off on you, tell him you intend to murder his friends and family. Even if he calms down after he takes a second to think about it, his first instinct is "I will fucking kill you".
That's basically what happened in the hut. He saw a threat to his family, and by instinct ignited his saber, which he never even swung (unlike what Kylo Ren remembers)
And what was his prior characterization that made him infallible? Did you see literally all of the failings and heartache that occurred to him in the OT? Does a man not change in the span of 35 years? Was he literally perfect in every way which would cause him to never make a mistake or feel shame? Plus, Luke is impulsive as fuck (going to Cloud City, Jabba's Palace, Emperor's Throne Room, etc.) and is always making mistakes.
Yoda trains Jedi for hundreds of years, always seems wise and ready to stand up for what is right...the empire forms and he just runs away...is that against his character? Why wouldn't he and Obi-Wan gather up remaining Jedi and other allies and fight, or do something other than hide.
Maybe they don't think it is those things.
Luke's father was an evil monster who terrorised the Galaxy. Luke had to deal with that already, and contend with his own demons. Then, as he said, he "sensed the darkness growing in that mighty Skywalker blood" of Ben's. Another Vader. Maybe worse this time? In a moment of weakness, he briefly considered ending that possibility forever with one stroke of his light sabre.
Is that really such a dumb, awful characterisation?
Edit: Also, don't forget we still have another film to go. We may yet see and hear more from Luke & Kylo Ren about this moment.
I just watched it yesterday and it's awesome, i don't get the hate. It is my favorite Star Wars movie (not counting the OG trilogy because... well nostalgia is a hell of a drug).
User warned for: personal insult.
Did you even read any of of what i wrote? Jeez at least explain why is critizing her automatically sexist. Why dont you instead use your stupid head and actually give me a reason why it is sexist?
So all you are saying is that the mere act of calling her a mary sue makes me a sexist? Well who the hell gave u the power to decide that?
People watch 3 movies about Anakin's hate and fear, and killing the women and children too and say it's hard to believe he'd turn, while you think that showing a 10 second flashback clip is enough to justify character assassination?
Everything can be shown convincingly. If we spent some time in that flashback, saw Luke's worry, Kylo's downward spiral, the darkness inside him, saw, I dunno, things that would change Luke's character from the hopeful man he was at the end of ROTJ (he won, redeemed his father, killed the Emperor, defeated the Empire and started his own Jedi Order, he should be even more optimistic than before) to the doubtful man that draws a sword on his student, nephew and son of both of his closest friends... maybe.
But Rian Johnson didn't want to waste time on trivial things like characterizations, he needed to drag us through Canto Bight.
Han is dead. Luke is dead. Leah won't be around. The Jedi Order has been dead for a long while. There's no Sith. The rebellion is a small group of strangers. Hell, the only real symbol of "the past" at this point is the Empire's fleet, or what is left of it. Rey isn't the past, she's a nobody that Kylo has no reason to give much of a shit about beyond the few times she tried to be nice to him. Wow, what motivation for him, a nice stranger who didn't want to join him. She must die! Yawn. His motivation as a villain was based entirely around revenge on his family, and they're all dead and gone now. The third movie is going to literally have to reboot his character into something else for his motivations to make any sense.
It just wasn't a very good movie.
It has nothing to do with rey or luke or the new chick or the old movies.
tbh I wouldn't really care if I wasn't socially obliged to rewatch it.
It has nothing to do with rey or luke or the new chick or the old movies.
tbh I wouldn't really care if I wasn't socially obliged to rewatch it.
Why would what "people" say pertain to my argument? I don't say that.
By your own admission then, this isn't character assassination, you just are curious to visually see rather than merely take the word of Luke that things have been going bad with Ben for a long time before he entered the hut.
Which while I am intensely curious about that, isn't something I actually need to see any more than I needed to see the prequels to take Obiwan's word that Vader was a Jedi Knight who fell into the dark side.
Seriously you guys stop this. Not every critizism of ray is because of sexism. Can you not like something and accept that some one else didnt? Whithout tagging that person as a sexist/misogynist?
I feel like you are just using the argument to aboid criticism. And insulting the on the other side while you are at it.
I agree with some of this. Though I was fine with Canto Bight as it served purpose for other characters, I needed more than that tiny glimpse of what Luke saw.
What was life like for Ben Solo back then? Who are the Knights of Ren? A 10 minute scene, hell maybe 5 even was all I wanted from that.
If anything filling in why Vader became Vader was hella worse than it just being a thing that happened.
What!? So you don't like that The Laat Jedi is deliberately working against nostalgia and reliance on past plot threads just because the company that produced it is also making other stories that deal with the past? I just can't get my head around that stance, since it has absolutely nothing to do with actual content The Last Jedi. It just seems like scorned fan anger, frankly.
But they're not strangers? I mean we've spent two full movies with these characters and they absolutely have their own stories at this point - ones that have meaningful stakes. Kylo Ren is actually one of my favorite characters in any of the Star Wars films right now, and I'm very interested in his future whether Luke, Leia, or anyone else is involved or not. I don't know, to me the whole theme in this movie was that of moving past old Star Wars tropes and turning things over to a new generation. I thought it worked, even if it didn't always go exactly where I wanted it to.
You're. How do you get it wrong twice in one reply?
When did I say I hate the essence in star wars?
Sometimes i forget i'm on a board with kids who play video games.
There's nothing in TLJ implying that Luke doesn't understand Chewie. In fact when Rey "explains" what Chewie said, Luke's eyes are locked on Chewie, already asking the next question.
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To me yes. It's not the action of a hero to me, much less the hero Luke Skywalker we know.
If Rey had done similar I doubt she'd have so many fans here. She wouldn't do something so creepy though because she's the hero of this story.
And the clone wars and...hell, the entire fall of the Jedi order.
The thing is, leaving big, significant things to the imagination isn't a bad thing. At the very least, I would have been happier imagining my own idea of how the Jedi fell than seeing that they were a bunch of morons who fell for the most transparent con ever played.
I'll say this much: If there is a single mystery background element that I feel I would like to see, it is what the duration of ben's training and what it was exactly that pushed him to such a dark place that Luke felt that threatened over him.
But that desire is itself a credit to the fact that I care about the characters and intrigued by the events. It is not, in itself, a justification to actually see that. A writer wants to leave intrigue and mystery. It's up to you if you feel that this is a necessary part of the story to see or not. For me, it isn't, but it's the part that I most want to see.
How can you hate a Death St...Death Star Cann... giant laser? One that you've never even seen before, lol. How does that work?
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What is this trying to imply?
Anyway, Luke isn't a hero or the "Luke we know" at that point in time, his failure after having that moment messed him up, that's the point. It's cool if you don't like it. Just saying that's pretty much the intention.
But the whole point is that Luke isn't the big hero everyone says he is. He's still human, and he made a mistake in his judgment. Even if he didn't go through with what he initially planned, it still had repercussions. It seemed clear to me, Luke is not supposed to be a pure hero, even if he is the preeminent Jedi at the time.
Snoke is a perfect example... I don't need to know anything about him (other than as you say if they opt to show some of Ben's training... that'd be cool if they can fit in without it just being a Oh and here's how Ben got turned flashback for no real reason) or see anything else of his past and I'm glad the dude is dead... his death greatly increased his credibility as a character to me because he was the least interesting thing about the entire series and I'm glad they got to use him in such a fantastic subversion.
Agreed, I mean this is a guy who confronts his father and sees some good in him. So he seeks him out to bring him back to the light. Now 30 years later any ounce of compassion went out the window when his nephew who may show small sparks of dark "sidedness" decides murdering him is the correct course of action. Nothing makes sense in this film.
It's visually stunning and the sound design was awesome. Even the acting was good. But the story was just flawed.
I don't get the hate either, film wasn't perfect by any stretch (too long, Finn storyline did nothing for me at all) but I loved the decisions they made with the big story beats, I'm so glad Rey isn't Lukes kid (or anyone else we will ever meet), I was genuinely impressed that they killed Snoke when they did. It's not that these were earth shattering moments they just ever so slightly defied my expectations and created a surprise for me as a viewer. It was a great follow up to TFA which did a great job with the nostalgia but retold the OT story too closely.
It leaves me excited for the 3rd one because I think it will have to be another story we haven't heard in the universe before, and that's what I wanted, not note perfect retellings of the OT.
I believed Lukes failure as a teacher, I could have even believed Ben's version of events, he was never the perfect Jedi, or even a very good one outside of his connection to the force. The possibility that he'd be tempted by jealousy or fear again when he became the teacher and his students surpassed him sounded completely in character to me, especially the way it actually went down where really it only even occurred to him for a brief moment.
It leaves me excited for the 3rd one because I think it will have to be another story we haven't heard in the universe before, and that's what I wanted, not note perfect retellings of the OT.
I believed Lukes failure as a teacher, I could have even believed Ben's version of events, he was never the perfect Jedi, or even a very good one outside of his connection to the force. The possibility that he'd be tempted by jealousy or fear again when he became the teacher and his students surpassed him sounded completely in character to me, especially the way it actually went down where really it only even occurred to him for a brief moment.
Your getting really personal about this. I would appreciate you stay on topic thanks. Again it's fine you dislike the movie but to both pretend your Objective about this but also make implications that the people who disagree with you're opinions are immature constantly is really hurting whatever point your trying to make.
You make it sound like he was actually going to do it... the whole point is that he had a singular moment of weakness... it was a second the time it took to push that button... He then immediately was going to turn it off when Ben sprung at attacked.
That was just to illustrate why people talk about lack of characterization.
No, I am not 'just curious', if I gave you that impression, I'm sorry. What I am saying is that this character arc doesn't work because of the lack of work put into it. Any character arc would work. Grey Jedi Luke would work. Dark Side Luke would work. Lofty arbiter balance Luke would work. You would just have to put it in the movie. And it's not there.
This is the problem with the ST, they don't take time to build up anything, everything just happens because of lazy directing and writing. Everything is conveniently close to each other (you can see the 'parabolic laser' from starkiller from Takodana...), everyone knows everything, everyone achieves everything without effort; Poe is the best pilot, Ray knows how to fight, fly, fix, speak wookie and droid, shoot, mind trick and swim; Finn knows every starship and starbase plan by memory. There is no backstory to anything, no texture to anything, the last episode takes place literally in the void of space. Everything seems smaller, from the Resistance and FO to the entire Galaxy. A Republic of hundreds of thousands species is reduced to 4 planets. Instead of going in a new and exciting direction, each new episode resets the status quo (every character, save Poe, even goes through the same 'arc' they had in TFA) and it'll happen again with Ep IX, because they've written themselves into a corner, and the stakes have never been lower.
I can go on like this for a long while. And I am not bitching about being faithful to some canon or about technical plotholes (there's many, but they don't really bother me in these types of movies). I'm having issue with the plotting, the meandering story, the rehashed character stuff, the broken character arcs, implausible characterization (Luke, Hux) or weak characterization, lack of stakes, lack of real progression of the story (its a rethread, only Kylo is now the big boss), lack of thought put into the structure, resulting in a 4-act story in a 3-act movie and subversivness for subversiveness sake.
Everyone can like or dislike this movie however they please, but saying there are no problems with it is disingenuous.
I would have liked to know who the knights were or who Snoke was, but that is not essential. What is essential is learning about the Luke and Kylo dynamic and why the things are the way they are. In the movie Rey asks him why he hated his father and he says he didn't, but the past must die. Without explaining how he got to that point of thought makes him look like a lunatic; and he becomes a loony toon villain in the end.