-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
Look how nice and playful Luke is being with Vader! Such a nice young man all the time. No anger. No flaws. He's the perfect human being.
Same context too, Vader was staying for dinner and a nap and he went berserk on him!
I swear, discussion around this movie is making me lose all hope for cinema fans.
The point he's making is that Luke was capable of hatred, anger, and very nearly patricide. He's not a one-note character who is always hopeful and upbeat.
As I said, I don't have particular problems with Luke's disordinate reaction in Ben's hut. I think it's a lot less problematic than most other things about his arc.
But getting over that hatred was kind of his arc in the OT.
Now, last night I was watching Angry Joe's review of TLJ and boy, it's a huge mess full of inaccuracies and hyperbole, but on one thing he's right: the ST does a disservice to the OT characters because it fundamentally undoes all their arcs. Instead of being the people we left off in VI, doing things coherent with their arcs in those movies, they're basically brough back to where they were before ANH began, and separated to booth. Han's a smuggler again - he left Leia, he's a deadbeat dad, he's forsaken the Republic in a time of need (from general to criminal, how quaint). Luke's somewhere on a barren planet dealing with anger issues and insecurity, mopping about his misery and caring fundamentally for nobody but himself. Leia's still princess-ing about, but at least she's been coherent with her VI persona. It's as the team behind the ST feels like these characters were at their best BEFORE the OT started, and reverted them back to their roles there. And that's a disservice to the fanbase AND the movies.
Not everyone can be as educated in the forms of High Kino as you.
Shall we discuss the logics of Hyperspace Ramming again? <3
Angry Joe already went back on quite a lot of things he said in that original "review", especially after a few rewatches. Including the silly arc-undoing and dehumanizing of OT characters.
Oh don't worry, it's a 360* statement.
Last night I had the misfortune of stumbling in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULZfQ39F5sI
and now I'm tempted to pretend I have zero issues with TFA and TLJ in order to avoid being associated with... people like this.
But your association is faulty. One thing (hyperspace ramming) is a lore piece that may or may not make sense, that has practical implications only to people who care for the Star Wars continuity outside of the movie. We can argue all day but I can perfectly understand people not caring for it. Also, take notice that I have positively zero problems with Luke's moment with Ben - people change, sure it's a dark and terrible thing but it's something that Luke could have ultimately grown to feel. It's how he reacts to this event that I don't find particularly fitting or interesting or believable, but that's another argument entirely. Still, comparing him fighting his father in front of the emperor with him standing over his nephew who was sleeping in his guest room with a lit lightsaber in hand is... something.
After what I've seen and the way he framed his arguments I'm not entirely sure I care. It was precisely the kind of criticism that makes people yell at those who disliked the movie.
Why are you randomly agreeing with me now. That's terrible!
But at least you see *why* some of us are so incredibly fed up with the shit TLJ is getting. When you consider that a lot of it also comes from people who like the DCEU or Fox X-Men... then yeaaahhh, it goes really odd places, especially when they pull out shit like "You're not educated in movies like I am, so it's no wonder you like that drivel!" which is hilarious when you've already seen all the *real* artsy movies and come to Star Wars junk to have a good time and relax. Brainy Arthaus Films, they never were.
That's a terrible argument to make in any context. I may not like a lot of things about TLJ but I'll never think that my opinions on the movie make me a better fan or (ew) critic than someone who loved it. If you liked the movie, more power to you. My personal views and criticism of the movie aren't meant to be a way to undermine your enjoyment. The fact that I think a plot point or event is "dumb" doesn't make you dumb by association for liking it or enjoying it, for sure.
I made a post way earlier about how the depiction of the force changes with each new trilogy, and this something I notice with this is how there is less of a "good side" and "evil side" of the force, but more of a natural cycle of life sort of thing. The thing that indicates this most strongly is the scene when Rey reaches out over the island and is asked to describe what she sees. It shows her life, then things dying, then those dead things being used to flourish new life.
The dark side doesn't really rule the villains of the new trilogy. Kylo Ren killing Han and subsequent anger don't engender him with more power, it's clearly more potent in Rey and Kylo Ren than it was in the old guard, and now this. Luke characterizes the cave Rey sees as a place of the dark side, full of danger, because that's how he's seen the dark side of the force, and is something she must resist. This force is indeed characterized differently than normal force, as it pushes Rey into it when she's peering over the edge and having her go through that wierd trip. It was more like she needed to face a hard truth about herself, which, like you mentioned, is painful and puts her in a vulnerable spot, but isn't actively malicious or sadistic like the dark side was characterized as earlier.
That's what the ST is trying to sell. It's trying to go away from the stupid "Dark Side Bad! Light Side GUUUD!" paradigm the PT and much of the EU set.
TCW and Lucas himself have already been working on the grey areas, and telling us that the Dark Side doesn't mean evil, etc. so it's not like this is new to the ST. The ST is just taking this concept and running with it.
The point to Rey not being that tempted by the Dark Side, beyond wanting to know who her parents are, is that she simply did not have any sort of ambition, or selfish desire, that the Dark Side could latch on to.
If you go and examine Dark Side users, and why they're evil, you'll see one VERY important part of it. They're SELFISH, they're EGOTISTICAL. They want THEIR way, or NOTHING. That's why the Dark Side users are evil, because they give in to the same desires the Jedi tried to suppress.
Dark Side = Egoism
Light Side = Altruism
Only subscribing to either is foolish, and leads to terrible decisions, that's why Luke said the Jedi must end, because the Jedi as they were, were extremists, too. It's all about finding the balance between the two, because one without the other is foolish.
(That's also why Vader was "redeemed" his selfish ambitions and extremes were softened by the love for his son, leading to an ultimately altruistic deed that was fuled by and through positive egoism)
Why are you doing this to meeeee....
I understand you like the new, more modern take on the Light/Dark Side, but you need to accept that some of us preferred that version of the lore.
But the black and white good/bad dynamic of the Force *was* stupid. Hell, even within the story itself, the old EU dipped into that discussion more often than not.
No no no. The force is not any different that what it has always been. It's always been Dark side = egoism, Light side = altruism. Luke's criticisms of the Jedi past for vanity and hubris and failure, are themselves laced with the same things he is criticizing. I feel like you are forgetting that Luke comes back around on this by the end of the movie, with the help of Yoda and recognizing that yeah Yoda and Obi-Wan and the Jedi at their peak during the PT, and now Luke feels also about himself, all failed in big ways...but setting it all on fire and burning it down is bullshit. Yoda KNOWS that Rey has the books. He KNOWS that she will carry on the spirit of the Jedi and that the Jedi won't end. Luke comes to realize this too. With the legend he inspires by his act on Crait and with what Rey takes with her into the new "cave" of the future, the Jedi have a chance to be actually what they are meant to be, the altruistic good defenders of the light side of the Force. Luke with his final act on Crait, has finally come out of his own personal "cave of the dark side (egoism)" that he's been festering in on Ach-to.
Alice quoting you again, this time to fully agree
"The point to Rey not being that tempted by the Dark Side, beyond wanting to know who her parents are, is that she simply did not have any sort of ambition, or selfish desire, that the Dark Side could latch on to."
I'm with you here. It kind of feels like the entirety of this movie The Last Jedi is itself a "cave" for all of us in our own ways. We bring in what we bring in and that shapes every aspect of how we experience the movie. To me, the people coming out of the movie not liking it are full of their own egos and need to become their own versions of Luke on Crait, brushing off the bombardment of doubts that the First Order of your own ego is throwing at you and dodging the petulant swipes of your evil alter ego Kylo Ren. BE LUKE.
Maybe quoting the PT as the good/evil portion was the wrong wording. I guess the EU peddled that line of thinking a lot more. The PT did go into saying that it's all about emotions, but I do feel like it still painted in too broad black/white strokes.
Maybe the "Altruism Without Emotion" angle is what should and has been criticised the most inside of the universe, I feel the new Jedi are going to move away from that.
I never really inferred that Han was a deadbeat dad. I got the impression that prior to Ben leaving to train with Luke, they were a more or less functional family unit. Han actually wanted to keep Ben around and be more of a grounded and "together" family unit while it was Leia's decision to send Ben away with Uncle Luke, which of course was a disaster (which Han was fearing what would happen and caused his rift with Leia). It was after this, where Han sort of become broken again, left Leia, fell back into being a smuggler. Leia didn't change at all, she's either a senator or a rebel/resistance leader. And Luke failed big time, and I can certainly understand his position as we meet him in the ST (but a lot of blame of course goes to Snoke for providing temptation to Ben in secret, and cultivating the darkness in him, in secret), but Luke's momentary lapse in igniting a saber over Ben while he slept what ultimately put Ben in survival mote and be completely lost to him.
Of course he wasn't a deadbeat dad, his Twitter account is absolute evidence.
Sure I agree with most of this. The different trilogies 'depict' the force slightly differently I guess? I don't know. I bring with me that it has always been the same, and what we see is the journey of people failing to be good Jedi but also just winning or losing in the different circumstances of their political, wartime, eras.
My feeling is that Ben has been planning for a while to betray Luke and steal away with his handful of followers leaving a trail of ashes and the dead behind. Ben's version of what he sees in Luke's action in the hut is just the impetus to jump start the betrayal. Like, I bet Luke was sensing this plan forming in Ben's mind and when he peers into his mind, that is what he sees. Ben's action are a huuuge overreaction if it's all spontaneous.
I had a dream last night that I met Rian Johnson at a Mexican restaurant and I went over to him and told him how much I loved The Last Jedi. Then he proceeded to tell me that the computer he used to write all his scripts crashed and he needed help recovering files. And when I helped him I found out that not only had he written TLJ, he also rewrote the entire prequel trilogy and like a dozen other Star Wars movies.
I'm in too deep, folks.
I'm in too deep, folks.
I think we're talking past each other because I fundamentally agree with everything written. I'm just pointing out that the OT had the Dark Side described as something almost sentient, a predator of sort. In the ST this aspect is lost. You never feel Rey is at risk when using her powers.
Minor quip about the entire Legend of Crait: I kinda feel sorry about Rey. I mean, here you have the Republic, the Resistance and the Galaxy, all waiting for a sign, a messiah, a spark. This asshole Luke Skywalker spends the week fishing and drinking blue milk, and maybe playing a few poker hands with the Space Nuns, until he shows up (*he doesn't, actually, but it's not relevant now) and provides a good distraction for the Rebels and he becomes the spark of hope that will set the galaxy on fire.
Meanwhile you (Rey), in the last 48 hours recovered the map to Luke Skywalker, partecipated in the destruction of Starkiller base, actually foundt Luke Skywalker and tipped him over coming back to the fight, partecipated in the murder of Supreme Leader Snoke and played a fundamental role in the survival of the Resistance by opening the path through a Force feat that Luke Skywalker would have dreamed of (he literally struggled to lift a rock under Yoda's guidance, you lifted a literal avalanche at your first try) and providing a lift to said people.
And the galaxy is gonna be inspired by Luke! Rey is literally saving everyone's ass at every turn and inflicting major damage to the First Order, she's partecipated in a few hours in the destruction of the most powerful weapon in the history of the galaxy and the defeat of the FO's leader, and she's not good enough to be that Spark? I'd be playing with her doll, not Luke's ffs.
Minor quip about the entire Legend of Crait: I kinda feel sorry about Rey. I mean, here you have the Republic, the Resistance and the Galaxy, all waiting for a sign, a messiah, a spark. This asshole Luke Skywalker spends the week fishing and drinking blue milk, and maybe playing a few poker hands with the Space Nuns, until he shows up (*he doesn't, actually, but it's not relevant now) and provides a good distraction for the Rebels and he becomes the spark of hope that will set the galaxy on fire.
Meanwhile you (Rey), in the last 48 hours recovered the map to Luke Skywalker, partecipated in the destruction of Starkiller base, actually foundt Luke Skywalker and tipped him over coming back to the fight, partecipated in the murder of Supreme Leader Snoke and played a fundamental role in the survival of the Resistance by opening the path through a Force feat that Luke Skywalker would have dreamed of (he literally struggled to lift a rock under Yoda's guidance, you lifted a literal avalanche at your first try) and providing a lift to said people.
And the galaxy is gonna be inspired by Luke! Rey is literally saving everyone's ass at every turn and inflicting major damage to the First Order, she's partecipated in a few hours in the destruction of the most powerful weapon in the history of the galaxy and the defeat of the FO's leader, and she's not good enough to be that Spark? I'd be playing with her doll, not Luke's ffs.
I dunno, I don't think it's ever been this way. Using the force isn't really a thing that puts you at risk of being evil or going bad. The only thing doing that is your own emotions and reasons 'why' you are using the force. One thing plays into the other sure, but it all starts with your baseline emotional sense of who you are. Rey is less 'at risk' because she is quite altruistic as her baseline, and she is a survivor, and she's heard myths and stories about the Jedi and Luke Skywalker and thing that they could do (lift rocks). She longs for the myths of the Jedi to be true, so she doesn't have a hard time (like Luke did) in believing that the Force can do things like mind tricks and lifting rocks.
And lol, yeah I agree with you on the rest. Come on everyone, Rey is doing all the cool shit getting work done right now!
It's not really any different than how Luke was affected by his experience in the cave on Dagobah.
:lol it may be time to take a break from Star Wars.
I wish your dream was reality. :(
I would assume if RJ was making a sequel (sequel?) trilogy, they would announce it in this exact way. I think it's possible his trilogy is X-XIII. And given my big complaint in this trilogy so far is somewhat thin character development, I wouldn't be opposed to keeping the same-ish characters for a second go.
If you think about it, with the way they had set up the movies to say goodby to Han, Luke and Leia in order, that VII - IX were more of a Transition Trilogy.
Yeah it is kinda hard to believe Ep 9 would wrap up whatever is going on with Kylo and Rey. Tho the next trilogy RJ is working on is presumably not an extension of the 'saga' and won't be Ep 10-12 but it's own sidestory set who knows when. I'd kinda like it to maybe be set in and around the same era as the OT thru ST in other parts of the galaxy and maybe result in some pieces that come into to play in EP 10 whenever that happens.
Things are definitely not looking good for IX because VIII felt like a final movie.
Clearly missed the point. For some reason, people want Luke to be this perfect, infallible person when he's never been that. Discussion around this movie makes me think people have a fundamental misunderstanding about Luke as a character. I find it absolutely bizarre that Luke peering into Ben's mind and having a moment of weakness after ALL he's been through is being seen something against his character when it couldn't be more in line with his character. Him pounding Vader, almost killing him is a moment of weakness and he falls for the bait. This character flaw in Luke isn't just going to go away after throwing away the lightsaber. Breaking news...but when a person experiences constant heartache as Luke has, you tend to have some unresolved issues and those issues don't just go away even after you learn about them. That and 35 years have passed. And he saw the worst darkness in Ben that he's ever seen. Yet he still held back and the moment vanished in an instant. This movie made Luke more of a real human being than in any of the previous movies. I guess some just want a caricature.
I'm curious to see how Disney respond to this tanking and being pulled in China.
Are the Chinese hitting Star Wars fatigue sooner than the west?
Are the Chinese hitting Star Wars fatigue sooner than the west?
Based on the fact that Rogue One did better than TLJ, I'd say yes.
But I think it's more that they turned up for TFA based on Western hype, came to Rogue One to see if the second time's the charm (the tragedy being that it isn't a sequel), then walked away thinking it wasn't really for them. They don't have a cultural history with Star Wars. I'd say "they bounced off SW" more than they ever had a love for it that they were fatigued by.
It's been a month and I still don't know how I feel on the direction with Luke using super Force projection and then becoming one with the Force, I don't hate it but I don't love it either but I respect the decision. Felt like Johnson went out of his way to shit on all the expectations which is both funny and a let down. I do enjoy seeing many who bitched about TFA being a ANH retread and about how it did nothing different now bitching about TLJ for doing something different well executed or not is up to opinions.
As for Rey, after that cave thing it made me start to think it's Anakin sort of situation of being willed to life by the Force and Rey really is Anakin 2.0 minus the issues that lead to his fall.
As for Rey, after that cave thing it made me start to think it's Anakin sort of situation of being willed to life by the Force and Rey really is Anakin 2.0 minus the issues that lead to his fall.
Hey some of us TFA bitchers completely came around on TLJ.
I asked for original and surprising visions of SW and when I got it I was thoroughly entertained.
You know he wrote the movie while The Force Awakens was being made right? He didn't know what "fan expectations" were.
It's also really arrogant to assume a professional director and writer would make a narrative choice JUST to defy expectations.
The most logical answer is that the Chinese are hardcore Star Wars fans that are rebelling against Disney's handling of the franchise and the illogical implications of Holdo's maneuver on space warfare.
It was kind of stupid but I wasn't going to get up in arms about it. Ackbar was never a major supporting character.
Yeah in the context of your post you use it to suggest that you feel a decision was made for a specific reason.
I'm responding to your post based on the words you used and how you used them...
Maybe be more specific next time instead of starting your sentence with "Felt"?
It's a weird thing. I'm sad he's gone - yet another piece of the OT that dies. I don't think him doing the "Holdo maneuver" was a solution because I hate everything that is remotely connected to Holdo in the plot but not Holdo. Dern is a great actress, the portrayal is well done and if RJ used Ackbar to do the things he did with Holdo people would be rioting about character assassination.
Imagine all of those character moments with Leia replaced with his giant fish head and that voice.
Critics would have panned the movie hard lol...
User warned: Name calling
Or maybe you can try being less of a cunt?
It's not like Dern or Fisher are going to get nominated to an award for their 10 lines together, but yeah, it could have felt awkward.
Stupid. It should have been him who did the light speed suicide. It would have had more emotional impact than some random new character who nobody gives two shits about.
Honestly I have a hard time believing people would care about Ackbar if "it's a trap" didn't become a meme
If Holdo didn't do the light speed suicide, there'd basically be no redeeming value for her character in my opinion
Except for also successfully executing a plan that saves the rebels and teaching one of our main characters a valuable lesson on fighting to save lives not just to end the lives of those you hate.
Ah yes, who could forget everyone's favourite Star Wars character, the fish man from the memes. His appearance for a cumulative 90 seconds of screentime across two movies endeared him to us all. Truly, the heartbreaking expression on his inanimate rubber fish face would have had audiences around the world fighting back tears as his heroic sacrifice allowed the Resistance to live another day.