Yeah it really is. Classic costume design and a fantastic shot.
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
How have I never seen this before? This video has one comment on it, from one 'kylo ren' saying "U are so cute".
And people say Reylo isn't real.
Any finite upper bound on the per square inch power output of shield generators would dictate that this linear scale assumption is naive, this is the same sort of logic that says a flea the size of a small dog can jump the length of three football fields.
Hyperspace drives, as far as I know, work the same way on every ship.
I mean you just said how it's a dumbass strategy and then went to affirm how effective of a strategy it is. Uh, so....check your logic, dude.
User was Warned: Inflammatory language towards another user
You skip the part where I said it was a hail mary?
Sure you did.
The strategy YOU keep putting forward is dumbass. Not the one-in-a-million hail mary kamikaze attack that destroyed the last of the Resistance fleet save for the Millennium Falcon, all for the sake of a single extra hour.
Mod edit: Please don't use the edit function to remove context from a warning/ban.
Sure you did.
The strategy YOU keep putting forward is dumbass. Not the one-in-a-million hail mary kamikaze attack that destroyed the last of the Resistance fleet save for the Millennium Falcon, all for the sake of a single extra hour.
Mod edit: Please don't use the edit function to remove context from a warning/ban.
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And when the narrative is a deus ex machina surprise use of standard tech that just happens to be able to decimate an entire fleet, is it worth breaking continuity? Is this really good narrative? Particularly when the emotional weight of it is given to a character written to be introduced and to die in this very movie?
confused, your post even points out that this is not a dumbass strategy. As you say, the resistance traded one captain and her large-ish ship for a ship 25 times larger, plus 6 other large ships and the thousands (millions?) of enemies aboard them. How is this a dumbass strategy? The gains are insane!
As to why people are pursuing this notion, they realize that in every Star Wars movie from this point forward people will be asking why ship A didn't just hyperspace through ship B to end the fight, and they will be doing so earnestly, not snidely like those of us who were upset by the movie
You're making me uncomfortable again. Can you tone it down?
I said that I cited kamikaze strategy as a way to say that this would've occurred to people way before this.
In the Star Wars universe, it's way more effective actually than in the real world which is why they should've been using it more.
It's not even one in a million. It worked on the first try that it's ever been shown. Seems pretty accurate to me.
It's really fucking effective too, dude.
Yeah but Luke had the Force. Space magic evens the odds tremendously.
Also one in a million is an expression. It doesn't literally have to mean that the shot was one in a million.
It's not even framed as a hail Mary. She points her ship at their fleet and pulls a lever. There's no "never tell me the odds" or tension as to whether or not it will work. It's framed as a surprise, people are in awe, almost like Holdo just figured out this could be done, which is the reason people were rolling with that angle when defending the scene way back in OT 1
Yes, you keep making it seem like Holdo's little maneuver is hard to replicate when you have no evidence to show that it's that hard to do.
At least when Luke did it with the Death Star, we were shown people missing to illustrate how hard it was.
I'm genuinely curious how this not a deus ex machina given the narrative presented. I'd be happy to hear any explanation
I'm also genuinely curious how you believe the movie presents this as a hail Mary
I've been corrected a number of times in this thread and have come around on some things I didn't like about the film, so I'm all ears
Personally, the only real justification I can see is that with how long it takes the ship to start up, the only reason Holdo seems to be able to pull it off because the First Order just didn't expect it, allowing her to power up the hyperspace drives to make it work. Once he realizes what she's doing, Hux immediately tells his soldiers to fire on the ship. My understanding is that no one tries it because, other than being a complete waste of a perfectly good ship, it's easily counterable if the opponent is expecting it in any way. Holdo's manuever was a unique situation of the ships being in the right position with the entirely wrong expectations. Anything less than that, they can just take them out before it's a problem.
Is that giving the story a bit of leeway? Maybe, but it's Star Wars. I'll scrutinize fake physics when you can tell me how english manages to be a galactic language understood by every species everywhere.
Is that giving the story a bit of leeway? Maybe, but it's Star Wars. I'll scrutinize fake physics when you can tell me how english manages to be a galactic language understood by every species everywhere.
Because, presumably they won't be distracted like hux was and will simply hit the thrusters for half a second and move out of the kamakazie ships jump vector. This was a very situational maneuver that wouldn't work on a ship with even a bit of velocity becuase once a ship has hyperspace coordinates they are locked onto whatever vector they are set to. In a real pitched battle with moving ships this couldnt and wouldn't work they way it does with the raddus and the dreadnaught. It was a highly situational play and honestly brilliant quick thinking by holdo.
Also, presumably the first order will be taking countermeasures to ensure they don't become the victim of a similar manouver in the future. Its not the big slip up people think it is. It was carefully considered and there isn't really any valid criticism other than 'but physics' which is laughable when talking about star wars
to explain where I'm coming from, Google's definition of Dues ex machina: an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.
The narrative told us the situation was hopeless, through great pains
The power used is obviously unexpected by the audience. Heck, even the FO didn't expect it
My issue with this scene is not technical nitpicking, it's the fact that it's used as an out in a tense situation where the viewer could not have anticipated this out existed. Some people may enjoy this form of story telling, others won't. It's an ends justify the means sort of thing. The technical nitpicking comes in because inevitably Lucasfilm will have to provide boundaries to when this can or can't be used since the audience now sees it as "in play" for any future space battles. I'm curious to see how it's handled in upcoming films
The narrative told us the situation was hopeless, through great pains
The power used is obviously unexpected by the audience. Heck, even the FO didn't expect it
My issue with this scene is not technical nitpicking, it's the fact that it's used as an out in a tense situation where the viewer could not have anticipated this out existed. Some people may enjoy this form of story telling, others won't. It's an ends justify the means sort of thing. The technical nitpicking comes in because inevitably Lucasfilm will have to provide boundaries to when this can or can't be used since the audience now sees it as "in play" for any future space battles. I'm curious to see how it's handled in upcoming films
At least be graceful about it.
It's okay to admit that the other person has a point and/or that you don't have evidence to back up what you're saying.
Yes if hux had shouted 'forward thrusters' instead of 'fire on that ship' it wouldn't have worked. He made a deadly mistake. He probably assumed holdo was going to open fire. I have no idea why people are mad about This scene it's one of the coolest things that ever happened in a star wars movie
It is firmly established that Spaceships in SW can accelerate toward near the speed of light near instantly using hyperdrives (multiple places)
It is firmly established that spaceships are in danger of hitting obstacles in their path (Han mentions it in ANH iirc)
All the mechanisms of what happened here are firmly established not just within this movie, but for as long as SW itself has existed.
The only new thing is Holdo's decision to use those mechanisms in this particular way, but all the tools of what made this moment are things you've long since known about. It's just using them in a new way.
Edit: Also, no one should be using Wikipedia as any kind of authority on narrative terms. There is no recognized authority on narrative terms. There is no official academic institution that has the official word on what a plothole or deus ex machina or mary sue are. Most academic institutes more study how such terms have been historically used and how they changed over the years. Aristotle's conception of a Deus ex machina is very different from our modern day one.
You'll do a lot better just trying to articulate your personal feelings on how something doesn't feel earned than trying to justify it with wikipedia
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You people do understand that war is always an arms race and tactical minds trying to outdo each other. If the resistance started to suddenly throw away expensive ships and adapt a kamikaze strategy, the First Order won't just fiddle their thumbs and just wait for the next hyperdrive ram without doing anything to counteract it. They can adapt tactics that lessen the potential destruction such an attack can cause if it succeeds, they can focus on tactics that make even succeeding in such a thing less likely, they can create all kinds of technology that can be used to prevent it from happening. Like some kinds of EMP like bombs that disable the hyperdrive capabilities of ships within its reach of influence. Fuck, they can just be lazy and say they focused on improving their shield tech. Maybe they just make the shields much stronger against physical contact or created something that specifically reflects hyperdrive attacks somehow.
The tech in SW is already fantastical. An arms race that prevents such cheap tactics from being used wouldn't be anything too outlandish or hard to believe within SW lore. You're making a mountain out of a nerdy anthill problem.
And the NR/Resistance can adapt to make their stuff more effective too. But then you're getting into a revolving door of what ifs.
At the very least, the short-term gains will be phenomenal.
You don't need a precise jump if you just line up the target and your (safety disabled) coordinates. The issue is burst damage, you're not going to be able to destroy a ship or multiple ships in the time it takes them to spool up. This is another area that the film tries to address but it just wasn't plausible or consistent. I'm pretty sure that the complicating factor with the Falcon jump was how close it was to the planet (this is corroborated by how Hyperspace is established to workwith large gravitational bodies being messy and things you want to avoid given that they start interfering and can pull you out of hyperspace) seeing as we've seen multiple ships jump in and out of hyperspace literally right next to one another
Not only is this rude, it's dishonest.
The resistance was dead no matter what. The maneuver that you have zero proof was one in a million 'only bought them an hour' because if there had even been one half dead star destroyer left then the Resistance was still done for. One medium sized ship took out The Supremacy as well as multiple Star Destroyers. That was trillions of dollars and millions of men.
Everything you've said just drives home why it was a bad idea to do this in the film. Your post is almost completely speculation and relies on jumping through hoops.
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I don't think either of us know how hyperspace drives work, I'm just saying that it's not hard for me to imagine that this tactic is unreliable and contingent on a pretty specific set of circumstances.
Oh completely agreed. My initial post included a disclaimer that wikipedia is not the definitive arbitrator of what a deus ex machina is, but I've also been in the habit of making my posts to wordy to the point that they are hard to reply to. I think what you are saying is a given and included a similar disclaimer when bringing this point up previously. I am simply including a definition so people can understand where I'm coming from, and I appreciate that you responded in kind
response forthcoming, I am following this thread amidst other responsibilities
Fuck me, this movie looks good. Sadly IX will be a downgrade.
VII was a good looking movie too. I believe Mindel is back for IX.
The start of the movie makes it clear that although a small craft can carry enough ordinance to blow up a huge enemy ship, there are measures in place (turrets, fighters) to make that only applicable in select circumstances. It doesn't need to go into TNG/Voyager level technobabble to do this, it flowed from the dialogue and scenario naturally. By comparison, the end of the film does not give any reason why this maneuver could not be replicated on small and large scales, using x-wings, empty hulls, asteroids, or any other thing that could have a hyperdrive strapped to it. It raises an implication.
You can assume that X, Y or Z reason makes it non-viable and for some reason in this one situation it was, but the film didn't say anything about that. What we are shown at face value is that she just zipped the ship around and blasted and it worked, it smashed a ship hundreds of times its volume as well as several ships of equivalent size. Nobody said it was an impossible plan, nobody said it was unlikely to work, nobody said it required special technology, force sensitivity, luck or whatever.
Anything from a minor discrepancy to full on plot holes in any piece of fiction could be patched up with a sufficient quantity of theories and assumptions. That's not news. On the other hand, identifying that something shown in a scifi movie raises implications the movie doesn't deal with isn't a problem, so why get aggro at people for discussing it at length? Some people think it was a flaw in the film, other people don't, cool.
It's clearly implied the ship needs to get close enough.
No they won't. The Resistance is in no position to start throwing away ships at this point and, again, suicide bombings is generally not a tactic Leia's forces use. And your suggestion of stealing ships for kamikaze attacks wouldn't exactly do any favors to the image of the resistance in the eyes of the public. They need all the help & support they can get and going around the galaxies taking ships from citizen who aren't involved in the war would just cause dissatisfaction among the public.
Besides, another easy way to prevent this from happening is establishing a fleet of smaller ships around bigger ones who'll make certain no unwanted ships get close enough to be able to perform such attacks. Supremacy was taken by surprise, they won't do that mistake a second time.
There are countless ways to counteract it that even I can come up with and I'm no master tactician.
No, it's just proof how it is not such a huge issue you are making it out to be. There can be a billion perfectly believable in-universe explanations from moral and financial ones to technological & tactical ones why this won't become some kind of auto-win buttom for anyone with a hyperdrive.
Then get it close enough. There are a lot of viable ways to do this besides just rush at it in the open too btw.
It's not viable as of the end of TLJ because how low on equipment they are but I'm talking during the overall timeline of the conflict, why has no one done this? (and I did include the NR)
Just got back from a fourth viewing (ah!). Some thoughts:
First, one thing I noticed: When Rey goes into the dark cave, there's a woman who says her name: "Rey." It's very quiet but you can hear it if you listen carefully.
It became apparent to me that Kylo was never going to turn. It seems to me from early on he took Snoke's advice to heart: "A weakness properly manipulated can be a sharp tool." So he began working on Rey. My opinion on how Rey was handled essentially unchanged. Things happen too fast for her to be confiding in Kylo so soon, however this time, for some reason, I got the sense that she was just trying to help him. Thanks to RotJ, though, we can't assume that Kylo's actions will have consequences, either physical or emotion (no one can say for sure, in the course of Rey helping him, she would never forgive Kylo). She's not allowed to be clear on this part. This is a disservice to her character, and it's something the movies need to address.
I like what TLJ tried to make Rey do for Kylo -- I just thought the execution was off.
First, one thing I noticed: When Rey goes into the dark cave, there's a woman who says her name: "Rey." It's very quiet but you can hear it if you listen carefully.
It became apparent to me that Kylo was never going to turn. It seems to me from early on he took Snoke's advice to heart: "A weakness properly manipulated can be a sharp tool." So he began working on Rey. My opinion on how Rey was handled essentially unchanged. Things happen too fast for her to be confiding in Kylo so soon, however this time, for some reason, I got the sense that she was just trying to help him. Thanks to RotJ, though, we can't assume that Kylo's actions will have consequences, either physical or emotion (no one can say for sure, in the course of Rey helping him, she would never forgive Kylo). She's not allowed to be clear on this part. This is a disservice to her character, and it's something the movies need to address.
I like what TLJ tried to make Rey do for Kylo -- I just thought the execution was off.
That's the problem though, it involves the viewer head cannoning some sort of justification outside of the film itself. There are a million ways you could have done this same result (with the same visuals more or less) without introducing all of these problems and band aids. Even their in lore explanation is insufficient
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The other guy was right. You were being aggro (just in general). Like I asked you tone it down because you were making me feel uncomfortable. Just saying.
