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Star Trek Discovery |OT| To Boldly go into the new streaming era
- Thread starter berzeli
- Start date
I ask myself this question every time I turn on the TV and expect to see "Star Trek."
Oh god, how did "Mary Sue" end up in here?
Oh yeah, it's because there are women in the show.
Unbelievably competent/lucky male characters or protagonist are "badly written" or "simply, they're the heroes", but women get that special "Mary Sue" term.
And no, Michael isn't a Mary Sue. The whole point of her character is about someone who has potential but screwed up and has yet more to learn. I really liked this latest episode precisely because of this. She did learn a lot about herself and about being a member of the crew.
Oh yeah, it's because there are women in the show.
Unbelievably competent/lucky male characters or protagonist are "badly written" or "simply, they're the heroes", but women get that special "Mary Sue" term.
And no, Michael isn't a Mary Sue. The whole point of her character is about someone who has potential but screwed up and has yet more to learn. I really liked this latest episode precisely because of this. She did learn a lot about herself and about being a member of the crew.
There was a backlash to them even casting a woman as the lead before anything else was even put on paper, so the "mary sue" bullshit is no surprise. Whatever half-baked thing they can throw out there that they overheard some douchebag (Hi Max Landis) say one time about another female-lead.
I really enjoyed the episode. The party was a bit weird but honestly the "casual life" has never come across well in Star Trek. Not TOS up to the Kelvin stuff. That's the cost of world building but trying not to be too "weird" and stay grounded, I guess. The time-loop stuff was fun and I'm really enjoying how the focus and POV of characters can shift while keeping Michael pretty prominent.
I really enjoyed the episode. The party was a bit weird but honestly the "casual life" has never come across well in Star Trek. Not TOS up to the Kelvin stuff. That's the cost of world building but trying not to be too "weird" and stay grounded, I guess. The time-loop stuff was fun and I'm really enjoying how the focus and POV of characters can shift while keeping Michael pretty prominent.
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User was warned: inflammatory language, insults/rudeness towards other posters
Everybody offended by the gender implications of the term Mary Sue are dismissing the main point, as if being female has anything to do with the criticisms. Should we use Gary Stu instead? Really, who gives a shit if it's a man or woman? I know I don't, but I do know that since she's a woman, and since watching this garbage unfold is like reading some poorly-written YA power fantasy, Mary Sue seems to fit. Boo fucking hoo if that makes you go to red alert and raise your shields.
This show legit gets dumber than a bag of hammers far too often. We're 7 hours into it and less than a handful of characters even matter. The protagonist could be a transgendered alien sock puppet, and it wouldn't matter. She's the main one rolling out the sudden epiphanies and solutions to overcome all the manufactured drama that happens here.
If I was really trolling I'd be rolling out this kind of nonsense: "Here Mike, hold my beer, I need to go total Leeroy Jenkins on the invulnerable space monster that shredded a platoon of Klingons in front of us last week. REEEE!" - *DING!* Attention: The senior staff position of Chief of Security is now available. Suicidal Cylons need not apply. Klingon spies preferred.
But, I'm not trolling. I'm a fan of the franchise and watching this train wreck is fucking painful.
This is Star Trash. Nemesis tier Action-Trek, shoehorned into a long TV series, sprinkled with nostalgic cues and throwbacks to the better shows.
Disco sucks, and CBS would have been better off throwing bags of money at the Axanar team.
This show legit gets dumber than a bag of hammers far too often. We're 7 hours into it and less than a handful of characters even matter. The protagonist could be a transgendered alien sock puppet, and it wouldn't matter. She's the main one rolling out the sudden epiphanies and solutions to overcome all the manufactured drama that happens here.
If I was really trolling I'd be rolling out this kind of nonsense: "Here Mike, hold my beer, I need to go total Leeroy Jenkins on the invulnerable space monster that shredded a platoon of Klingons in front of us last week. REEEE!" - *DING!* Attention: The senior staff position of Chief of Security is now available. Suicidal Cylons need not apply. Klingon spies preferred.
But, I'm not trolling. I'm a fan of the franchise and watching this train wreck is fucking painful.
This is Star Trash. Nemesis tier Action-Trek, shoehorned into a long TV series, sprinkled with nostalgic cues and throwbacks to the better shows.
Disco sucks, and CBS would have been better off throwing bags of money at the Axanar team.
It ain't this Star Trek then, because Micheal, the Human raised as Vulcan, that can't seem to control her emotions or understand logic as well as a Vulcan, that was complicit in starting a war, having her captain and ship destroyed, pretty much unlikable to everyone on Discovery except for Tilly and Lorca, who has never been in love and has trouble expressing herself or being social in any way is the furthest from a mary sue character you could have.
So maybe get your eyes checked or something, because you aren't watching this show.
Voyager did an ok job giving us a look into what normal life on earth was like when Harry did that time travel thing where he was never on Voyager and woke up in San Francisco or whatever it was. It was funny seeing a bookstore in the background.
It was the first one to really feel like Star Trek, even though it was slightly recycling TNG's Cause & Effect.
This latest episode was the worst. I will take a break for a few episodes. The writing seems superficial and the show is filled with plain stereotypes taken from teen sci if series closer to a Disney xd show. Yes, the time loop trope is tiring as well.
Yuck with the Mary Sue stuff. There are plenty of reasons to like or not like the show and criticize or praise it but that one is lame. Such a lazy term and characterization to shoehorn into entertainment.
I find it funny because Ash is more of a "Mary Sue" to me. He somehow managed to survive in a Klingon prison while keeping his sunny disposition, instantly befriended the captain, Landry died so he could immediately get an officer's job, as soon as he steps onto the ship he makes friends, both the main women characters fall in love with him, even better than the captain at shooting stuff, etc.
I guess people are assuming most of this is part of the Voq theory, but he definitely has more inexplicably good traits than Michael and I've not seen anyone talk about him like that. I think the term is silly anyway.
I guess people are assuming most of this is part of the Voq theory, but he definitely has more inexplicably good traits than Michael and I've not seen anyone talk about him like that. I think the term is silly anyway.
Uff.
Because Mary Sue is really just a synonym now for "a female character I don't like".
Most of the rest of your post isn't actually criticism either. Literally, you're just saying "everything's dumb and sucks!". Try harder.
Well you do need a woman to make such a claim.
Not agreeing she a Mary Sue btw. She's no Rey.
Yes, I know, but the term itself is sexist because there's no reason to invent a term specifically to criticize those traits in a woman. Plenty of male characters (especially in Star Trek) have been "perfect" to the same degree many accuse Rey or other women characters of being.
I know it started as a way to criticise the trope of certain female characters because they viewed it as a way to easily write women protagonist or "the ideal woman", or they think they are just creating those female characters in order to put a woman there.
But the fact is that term is meaningless now because of its faulty usage and it is a reason why many here despise it.
If Seven of Nine, the super genius Borg orphan turned real human bean went around saving the day every week, while the rest of the crew did nothing but remain superficial background noise after 7 episodes, I'd be complaining about Voyager too.
She has not saved them every episode. Nor is she the only one doing anything to save them. In the Last episode Stamets is the one who technically saves them by realizing what is going on initially and directing burnham to help him.
If your complaint is that burnham is too large a focus at the expense of other characters that is a more valid criticism. I would also like to get to know more of the crew and episodes focused around them also.
If your complaint is that burnham is too large a focus at the expense of other characters that is a more valid criticism. I would also like to get to know more of the crew and episodes focused around them also.
This has to be a troll job...right? If not...
That last episode was the best episode yet and exactly what I would prefer the series to be.
First episode of the show that had me wanting more at the end and I didn't think this Star Trek in a Game of Throne's era storytelling would do that for me.
- Good character development and exploring Michael's humanity and struggle to understand her human emotions now that she has embraced them.
- Rainn Wilson is fantastic. Probably the closest thing to Q we will get in this show.
- I still can't say I'm a fan of Anthony Rapp's character. The fact that he is so flub with a Captain that is more insane than Janeway doesn't really play with me. At least now his character has something that would warrant such cockiness.
First episode of the show that had me wanting more at the end and I didn't think this Star Trek in a Game of Throne's era storytelling would do that for me.
I figured you'd probably like it although I think from the previews it seems to go back to the war stuff next week, so this might be it for you until after the break. lol
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The stop watching and save yourself from discussion of the same. As I said, life is too short and there's too much entertainment out there to hatewatch a show. You're essentially wasting your time and not really engendering much in the way of camaraderie and community.
Like, you can keep watching and discussing the show, but... why?
She didn't Stamets got better and convincing her quicker as once she'd gotten some info from Ash or whatever, he didn't need to get her to do it again. By the end Stamets knows enough about everyone to convince them that this is really happening in the time available and get out of it.
Mudd said he killed Lorca 53ish times right? which would be around 26 hours, so it depends on how many loops they did after that. Probably no more than an extra day.
I think you're right, though I don't know if it was clear if that was the number of times Mudd personally killed Lorca or if he included the number of times he blew up the ship and killed him.
Hmm that's true, but I guess it couldn't really be more than a few days at most
I mean this is what I want from Star trek. A thing also missing from other episodes was forcing the viewer to figure out how you would solve the problem. I enjoyed that.
Sort of how like in Measure of a Man the audience is given time to watch and think with Picard how to prove Data is sentient.
I get that TV shows are a reflection of the time and creating a 1 hour show that would work in syndication or on first time viewing isn't a priority over binging and long arch Game of Thrones politadrama but I think Trek is episodes like this one.
It's the first season so I'm still holding back judgment on characters but the last episode was promising.
You have to keep in mind that Mudd probably wasn't able to make it to Lorca in many of the earlier loops. It doesn't feel like he would count the ones where Lorca dies by ship explosion.
For example, the second loop that we see, Mudd was already 'at home' in Engineering. Stamets says he's tried many times but he hasn't gotten a win for the home team yet.
He may not have had time to make it to Lorca in a lot of the loops as well. I believe they said the loops are around a half an hour long, I imagine in a lot of them Mudd was following some lead on the spore drive and didn't have time to personally kill Lorca.
The original meaning of the term still has some relevance, particularly when you think of vanity projects where it's clear that the author is writing themselves into a story to feel good about themselves. I mean, the term is literally born out of Star Trek fandom and is used to make fun of fanfic writers who write a sexy female character who gets to bang Kirk/Spock/both at the same time. It's just that the Internet has broadened the term out to the point where it's meaningless.
I personally really disliked the party scene, just felt so incredibly unimaginative. When I tune in for Star Trek I look forward to seeing some kind of (more or less) carefully crafted idea what a future for humanity exploring space could look like. I mean the budget for this is $8M per episode? Sounds like A LOT to me honestly and makes me wonder how exactly the came to the conclusion to show the party scene (which felt like 10%-15% of the episode) in this specific style. When I try to think about what a party on a star-ship 200 years into the future could look like I don't really see any way (and reason) I would end up with the standard "2010 US human frat-style" party that is omnipresent in today's media.
Isn't the Discovery's crew supposed to be like the smartest Federation science guys (plus the single smartest Vulcan Academy scholar ever)? And this it what their partys look like? Seems like a pretty sad future to me tbh :-(
Also I take it Synthehol hasn't been invented yet (and there seemed to be some kind of Alcohol involved? (at least forTilly/some lower rank crew members?) One minute prior to the party scene start we get the whole "Discovery is the most important ship in this war" monologue from Burnham and the next thing we see is the crew getting drunk. I mean the Spore-Drive implies the have to be combat-ready in an instant 24/7 (go save that Admiral maybe?). Why is Cpt. Lorca letting this fly?
On another note, teleporting the "space whale" into the pressurized atmosphere of the cargo bay seems like torture. :|
The last episode was the most Star Trek it has been so far though, I thought.
Maybe it's because I've watched DS9 recently but I never expect anything imaginative from (mostly) human future social rituals and gatherings in Trek. The characters have always been absurdly obsessed with 20th century culture, to the point where it no longer breaks the suspension of disbelief ; it's pure Trek cheese and it's OK. The confrontation with the Other, the ethical dilemmas and the character studies (sprinkled with situation comedy) is the real core of Trek as I understand it. We got a good character study in this episode, and I really enjoyed it.
Also cut the Mary Sue shit out pretty please.
Also cut the Mary Sue shit out pretty please.
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I don't agree with the people calling Michael a Mary Sue, but the term wasn't invented specifically to target women. The history of the name is a piece of satirical fan fiction from the 70s - incidentally Trek fan fiction - where a writer introduced a parody of flawless perfect characters that can do everything. Her name was Mary Sue, she was a 15 year old Lieutenant who was fantastic at everything, charmed the main cast of the show, etc.
That's where the term originated. Gary Stu has been coined as a male variant, though the name Mary Sue also often is used to describe male variations of that character.
The way it's used nowadays is however often in a very sexist way, but the term itself did not have inherent sexist connotations, it was just a term used to criticize perfect characters in particularly fan fiction based on the name of the aforementioned parody character.
Ironically there's a webcomic that both decently parodies, deconstructs, and reconstructs the concept of the Mary Sue - in particular its relation to the concept of the power fantasy and ultimately the love of fandom that so often births it - in a pretty decent way, set against the backdrop of the Kelvin timeline. I present:
Ensign Sue Must Die!
Ensign Sue Must Die!
With all due respect, this feels like you're projecting your own dislike of parties here. What was a party like 500 years ago? Pretty similar, but there were candles and lutes. People have drank and copped off with each other as long as there have been people.
I think one of my favourite things about this new Trek is it treats the people as people. On the Trek we all knew, they're not really people so much as expository devices, the humans were all really quite bland if you think back on it. Imagine the drama you could milk out of a shag-hound like Riker and how they almost completely ignored it. I like that the Discovery' crew are people.
Last episode was the best yet. I hated the first two episodes actually based on the Discovery, but the last 3 have gotten steadily better. I still think the show is suffering from a lack of significant characters, there's really only 5 atm and I can't stand two of them.
Edit: We're talking about Mary Sue here aswell. I had never heard that phrase before The Force Awakens, and seriously wish I never had. The whole concept is stupid and just serves to shit up every thread.
Edit: We're talking about Mary Sue here aswell. I had never heard that phrase before The Force Awakens, and seriously wish I never had. The whole concept is stupid and just serves to shit up every thread.
Thats probably just an average. But they'll probably have spend more on the pilot, the finale, the mid-season cliffhanger episode, specific episodes that are relatively heavy on effects, etc. This is pretty normal.
You`ll often see 'cheaper' episodes (For example, Breaking Bad's The Fly episode) because of budgetary reasons.
I've seen very smart people do the most crazy shit at parties (ranging all kinds of drugs and/or heavy drinking and/or resulting public humiliation) so I dunno.