Plot holes in games?

Lightning Count · Jan 17, 2020

About to replay Heavy Rain again and it got me thinking. Ethan's blackouts just get straight up dropped from the story half way through, we never do find out what happened during those missing chunks of time, some of them last several hours.

Even though it is a fairly obvious red herring to make us think Ethan is the killer, it still bugs the hell out of me that a major plot thread would be so casually discarded like that without mention ever again that deep into the story. There are any number of ways that Quantic Dream could have addressed this while still keeping the overall plot intact and still keeping Ethan as the main protagonist and Scott as the killer. But the fact that they didn't and left such a huge plot hole in the final version of the story has always bugged me.

I want to hear about more plot holes in games, so we can discuss them. So drop them in this thread here, ERA.

Jason Frost · Jan 17, 2020

I think it was cut content, because Ethan was supposed to have supernatural dreams / nightmares or something like that.

Violet · Jan 17, 2020

Jason Frost said:
I think it was cut content, because Ethan was supposed to have supernatural dreams / nightmares or something like that.

In general, a ton of what gamers think are "dropped plot threads" or "plot holes" are a result of cut content. So much stuff gets last second cut for gameplay purposes, and there's not really a way to fix the story easily.

Fat4all · Jan 17, 2020

Jason Frost said:
I think it was cut content, because Ethan was supposed to have supernatural dreams / nightmares or something like that.

Ethan and the killers 'souls' were tied together following the events that lead to one of his sons dying, and the killer witnessing a father trying to save his child

so when the killer had strong emotions/kidnapped/whatever, Ethan would black out and head to that construction site (which was important to the killer)

it's for the best it was cut

Jessie · Jan 17, 2020

The 3rd Birthday has plot holes so dense no light can escape it.

Kain · Jan 17, 2020

FFXV story is a plot hole in itself

Stef · Jan 17, 2020

Final Fantasy VII have a bit of them, starting with:

The ability to resurrect dead party members with Phoenix Down, but NOT if the plot requires them to stay dead...

Coming to

The heroes running to remove a Huge Materia from the head of a missile being launched to destroy Meteor... only to get desperate when said missile is not able to destroy the meteor...

Fat4all · Jan 17, 2020

Jessie said:
The 3rd Birthday has plot holes so dense no light can escape it.

3rd birthday is a nightmare

Asbsand · Jan 17, 2020

Kain said:
FFXV story is a plot hole in itself

Really, it's just a completely incoherent script.

Jimnymebob · Jan 17, 2020

Stef said:
Final Fantasy VII have a bit of them, starting with:

The ability to resurrect dead party members with Phoenix Down, but NOT if the plot requires them to stay dead...

That's not really a plot hole though. It's more the story bending the rules of the gameplay.

Like, if there was a movie of it, I don't think Barret would die in every fight scene before getting revived afterwards with a Phoenix Down.

Skittzo · Jan 17, 2020

Twilight Princess has Zelda basically sacrificing her life force to save Midna. So, Zelda vanishes and we presume she's dead. Sure.

Then like 15 hours later she's somehow just held captive by Ganondorf with literally zero explanation.

Starlatine · Jan 17, 2020

Jimnymebob said:
That's not really a plot hole though. It's more the story bending the rules of the gameplay.

They do kind of explain it in FFV though

Jessie · Jan 17, 2020

So the 3rd Birthday is a game of unstable timelines and time loops and body swaps that make absolutely no sense. The catalyst behind all of this bullshitery is a wedding where a SWAT team swarms in and opens fire. But it's never explained why a SWAT team wants to kill everyone at a wedding. It's just handwaved by the plot, like a totally normal occurrence.

Death Penalty · Jan 17, 2020

Phoenix down doesn't bring back the dead, party members in FF who have fallen are canonically KO'd, not killed. Phoenix down revives, it doesn't resurrect.

DanteLinkX · Jan 17, 2020

Metal Gear Solid the Thread.

Acetown · Jan 17, 2020

Stef said:
Final Fantasy VII have a bit of them, starting with:

The ability to resurrect dead party members with Phoenix Down, but NOT if the plot requires them to stay dead...

They don't die, they get knocked out.

Gifmaker · Jan 17, 2020

After playing Twilight Princess, you will slowly realize that there was no point in the goblins abducting the children in the beginning of the game. They raid the fairy fountain, abduct the children, bring them to Kakariko and release them, then raid Kakariko to recapture one of the children who gets rescued by Link again. There was no explanation or point to it in the story whatsoever.

JoDa · Jan 17, 2020

Stef said:
Final Fantasy VII have a bit of them, starting with:

The ability to resurrect dead party members with Phoenix Down, but NOT if the plot requires them to stay dead...

Phoenix down heals the KO status effect, not literal dead, which then changes the plot hole to how can a stab wound kill you while literal explosions just knock you down?

Jessie · Jan 17, 2020

I think Final Fantasy XV is explained well enough, but the part that makes me angry is when the woman who looks like Hillary Clinton is totally OK with Noctis destroying her city in order to awaken its guardian deity. You'd think it would take more convincing than a few conversation checks.

Stef · Jan 17, 2020

JoDa said:
Phoenix down heals the KO status effect, not literal dead, which then changes the plot hole to how can a stab wound kill you while literal explosions just knock you down?

Yep, that's convenient too. :D

Ultimate Bear Cub · Jan 17, 2020

Jessie said:
So the 3rd Birthday is a game of unstable timelines and time loops and body swaps that make absolutely no sense. The catalyst behind all of this bullshitery is a wedding where a SWAT team swarms in and opens fire. But it's never explained why a SWAT team wants to kill everyone at a wedding. It's just handwaved by the plot, like a totally normal occurrence.

Maybe that was their "something blue".

Death Penalty · Jan 17, 2020

Not giving Red XIII's dad a soft though, now that's fucked up.

Phoenom · Jan 17, 2020

Death Penalty said:
Not giving Red XIII's dad a soft though, now that's fucked up.

Time limit maybe? He'd been that way for a long time.

Lightning Count · Jan 17, 2020

Fat4all said:
Ethan and the killers 'souls' were tied together following the events that lead to one of his sons dying, and the killer witnessing a father trying to save his child

so when the killer had strong emotions/kidnapped/whatever, Ethan would black out and head to that construction site (which was important to the killer)

it's for the best it was cut

An interesting theory but I agree probably best it was cut as Heavy Rain was fairly grounded and realistic.

Skittzo · Jan 17, 2020

Gifmaker said:
After playing Twilight Princess, you will slowly realize that there was no point in the goblins abducting the children in the beginning of the game. They raid the fairy fountain, abduct the children, bring them to Kakariko and release them, then raid Kakariko to recapture one of the children who gets rescued by Link again. There was no explanation or point to it in the story whatsoever.

Yeah Twilight Princess had some major plotholes. The entire plot really made little sense, yet people praise the game for its story. I'll never understand it.

MegaSackman · Jan 17, 2020

Death Stranding

Light spoilers

Amelie: "Come find me on the beach"

Not that Sam has any means to get there, I don't know why he agreed to the mission knowing that, especially considering he didn't want to go.

Uthred · Jan 17, 2020

Lightning Count said:
About to replay Heavy Rain again and it got me thinking. Ethan's blackouts just get straight up dropped from the story half way through, we never do find out what happened during those missing chunks of tim, some of them last several hours.

Even though it is a fairly obvious red herring to make us think Ethan is the killer, it still bugs the hell out of me that a major plot thread would be scadually discarded like that without mention ever again that deep into the story. There are any number of ways that Quantic Dream could have addressed this while still keeping the overall plot intact and still keeping Ethan as the main protagonist and Scott as the killer. But the fact that they didn't and left such a huge plot hole in the final version of the story has always bugged me.

I want to hear about more plot holes in games, so we can discuss them. So drop them in this thread here, ERA.

Yeah, that's not a plot hole.

Fat4all · Jan 17, 2020

Lightning Count said:
An interesting theory but I agree probably best it was cut as Heavy Rain was fairly grounded and realistic.

it's not a theory, QD said scenes elaborating on the supernatural elements were removed basically at the last minute, a few months before launch

Lightning Count · Jan 17, 2020

Uthred said:
Yeah, that's not a plot hole.

It is because it introduces massive chunks of time into the story that are not accounted for. Also the fact that they just stop with zero explanation is a plot hole in and of itself.

Lightning Count · Jan 17, 2020

Fat4all said:
it's not a theory, QD said scenes elaborating on the supernatural elements were removed basically at the last minute, a few months before launch

I am glad they did that. I enjoyed Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy but the sudden tonal shift into the supernatural was really jarring in that game.

Oinone · Jan 17, 2020

skittzo0413 said:
Yeah Twilight Princess had some major plotholes. The entire plot really made little sense, yet people praise the game for its story. I'll never understand it.

I'd say the bar is not especially high for a Zelda game to begin with. And even if the story falls apart rather quick, the single pieces are quite interesting. TP features some great characters and moments.

Fat4all · Jan 17, 2020

Lightning Count said:
I am glad they did that. I enjoyed Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy but the sudden tonal shift into the supernatural was really jarring in that game.

looking at Fahrenheit and Beyond: Two Souls, even with the plot hole, Heavy Rain pulls it off the illusion super well

i feel like the supernatural stuff would've just muddied the waters, especially since they already had the weird AI/AR addiction stuff on the side

HK-47 · Jan 17, 2020

Shelby's inner thoughts are the plot hole of that game

Skittzo · Jan 17, 2020

Oinone said:
I'd say the bar is not especially high for a Zelda game to begin with. And even if the story falls apart rather quick, the single pieces are quite interesting. TP features some great characters and moments.

Most Zelda games have very simple stories. Simple doesn't mean bad. A complicated story that falls apart very, very quickly and easily is a lot worse than a very simple story that is at least coherent.

Fat4all · Jan 17, 2020

HK-47 said:
Shelby's inner thoughts are the plot hole of that game

convenient player blackouts!

(and also french-accented child voice actors)

Demon-69 · Jan 17, 2020

MegaSackman said:
Death Stranding

Light spoilers

Amelie: "Come find me on the beach"

Not that Sam has any means to get there, I don't know why he agreed to the mission knowing that, especially considering he didn't want to go.

There's even a plot hole about the rain with

Mama drinking rain water from the wreckage.

GameBuddy · Jan 17, 2020

skittzo0413 said:
Twilight Princess has Zelda basically sacrificing her life force to save Midna. So, Zelda vanishes and we presume she's dead. Sure.

Then like 15 hours later she's somehow just held captive by Ganondorf with literally zero explanation.

Zelda explains that when Zant attacked the castle and plunged it into Twilight that every person but her lost their physical form and turned into a spirit. Later, when Midna is dying, she reveals that the power of the Triforce is what turned Link into a wolf instead of him losing physical form. She says she's been granted "special powers by the goddesses" too and shows her triforce. She gives up that power to heal Midna when she realizes Midna is the Twilight Queen, loses her physical form, and her spirit is captured and manipulated by Zant/Ganon.

There's some inference and it takes place over the course of dozens of hours of gameplay, but it's there.

Oinone · Jan 17, 2020

skittzo0413 said:
Most Zelda games have very simple stories. Simple doesn't mean bad. A complicated story that falls apart very, very quickly and easily is a lot worse than a very simple story that is at least coherent.

Sure, not going against that.
But because it has those great set pieces, it gets a pass regarding the rest. Or at least that's how I feel.

ManOfWar · Jan 17, 2020

Pretty much all Metal Gear Solid games.

The Unsent · Jan 17, 2020

Gifmaker said:
After playing Twilight Princess, you will slowly realize that there was no point in the goblins abducting the children in the beginning of the game. They raid the fairy fountain, abduct the children, bring them to Kakariko and release them, then raid Kakariko to recapture one of the children who gets rescued by Link again. There was no explanation or point to it in the story whatsoever.

I guess Ganon is a sadistic fucker and just ordered his moblins to kidnap children for fun. I OoT he froze the zora lake for fun and fed gorons to a dragon. They just enjoy being dicks.

Skittzo · Jan 17, 2020

GameBuddy said:
Zelda explains that when Zant attacked the castle and plunged it into Twilight that every person but her lost their physical form and turned into a spirit. Later, when Midna is dying, she reveals that the power of the Triforce is what turned Link into a wolf instead of him losing physical form. She says she's been granted "special powers by the goddesses" too and shows her triforce. She gives up that power to heal Midna when she realizes Midna is the Twilight Queen, loses her physical form, and her spirit is captured and manipulated by Zant/Ganon.

There's some inference and it takes place over the course of dozens of hours of gameplay, but it's there.

The issue with that is that Link is supposedly able to see those spirits in the Twilight, right? Zelda doesn't just lose her physical form and become a spirit, she just vanishes completely. The way Midna reacts is clearly supposed to make you think Zelda gave up her life or spirit or whatever to save her.

And then on top of her simply vanishing like that, we're given absolutely no explanation of how Zant/Ganon captures her. In fact, why exactly was she just able to hang out in her room in the castle at the beginning anyway, if Zant/Ganon wanted to capture her?

We can obviously try and make sense of these things by offering up potential in-universe theories but her sacrificing herself for Midna is a crucial plot point that's basically completely ignored by the end of the game for no obvious reason. It's as if the developers thought that would make for a good story (Zelda dying to save Midna) but basically chickened out at the end and assumed you, as the player, would have forgotten it happened.

Zomba13 · Jan 17, 2020

H0xton said:
There's even a plot hole about the rain with

Mama drinking rain water from the wreckage.

Nah, they say

timefall stops being weird once it hits the ground. So rain hits rubble then turns to water then drips I to mouth.

The Unsent · Jan 17, 2020

Stef said:
Final Fantasy VII have a bit of them, starting with:

The ability to resurrect dead party members with Phoenix Down, but NOT if the plot requires them to stay dead...

Coming to

The heroes running to remove a Huge Materia from the head of a missile being launched to destroy Meteor... only to get desperate when said missile is not able to destroy the meteor...

Phoenix down ressurrect Ko characters and the second isn't a plot hole, the characters have compex feelings about Shinra because even though thier plan to destroy meteor might be well intentioned, this was an evil company that is hard to trust with essentially a nuclear weapon. In the end and in the vacuum of space, the urgency gets to them and and Cid who feels vulnerable, the player gets a futile choice to not take the huge materia and let the rocket go into the meteor.

ActWan · Jan 17, 2020

MegaSackman said:
Death Stranding

Light spoilers

Amelie: "Come find me on the beach"

Not that Sam has any means to get there, I don't know why he agreed to the mission knowing that, especially considering he didn't want to go.

Well he visited the beach many times before so he probably thought if he came to amelie she will somehow get him there, but in the end he only came because of the lie that she was in "danger"

Zomba13 said:
Nah, they say

timefall stops being weird once it hits the ground. So rain hits rubble then turns to water then drips I to mouth.

This, and also the fact

she kinda died that moment and was kept "alive" as a walking corpse by her connection to the baby, so I think timefall wouldn't have an affect? (her corpse didn't decompose either because of some weird explanations, that entire part was pretty iffy)

The Unsent · Jan 17, 2020

Death Penalty said:
Not giving Red XIII's dad a soft though, now that's fucked up.

He had arrows in him and going into his neck, he would still be dead if they used a soft or dying in pain. I don't think Nanaki needs to see that.

Gifmaker · Jan 17, 2020

♡♪!? said:
I guess Ganon is a sadistic fucker and just ordered his moblins to kidnap children for fun. I OoT he froze the zora lake for fun and fed gorons to a dragon. They just enjoy being dicks.

Ganondorf did not command the goblins though, Zant did. Also, Colin states that the beasts took them and left them to die. Why? What was their goal? Staging a risky attack in order to abduct some children, carry them elsewhere and then "leaving them to die" after going through all the trouble and once they return to Kakariko, they just fetch one of the kids all over again? What the hell is their deal? Compared to that, Ganondorf was highly reasonable in OoT, because both the Zora and the Gorons were possible threats to his reign if they were to join forces and had strong leaders who opposed him to look up to, so taking them out of the equation after conquering Hyrule seems like a logical thing to do.

Lightning Count · Jan 17, 2020

Fat4all said:
convenient player blackouts!

(and also french-accented child voice actors)

Control being taken away for 30 seconds while Scott murders the old guy Manfred off screen.

Also a lot of the adult voice actors are British. But that's a production issue I can overlook.

Fat4all · Jan 17, 2020

Lightning Count said:
Also a lot of the adult voice actors are British. But that's a production issue I can overlook.

NAYMAN JAYDUN

The Unsent · Jan 17, 2020

Gifmaker said:
Ganondorf did not command the goblins though, Zant did. Also, Colin states that the beasts took them and left them to die. Why? What was their goal? Staging a risky attack in order to abduct some children, carry them elsewhere and the "leaving them to die" after going through all the trouble and once they return to Kakariko, they just fetch one of the kids all over again? What the hell is their deal? Compared to that, Ganondorf was highly reasonable in OoT, because both the Zora and the Gorons were possible threats to his reign if they were to join forces and had strong leaders who opposed him to look up to, so taking them out of the equation after conquering Hyrule seems like a logical thing to do.

Zant is challenging Ganon spirit, who is titled The King of Evil which sums up his motivation. The goblin leader is also in Ganon's stolen castle at the end. Ganon who orders them just enjoys being a dick. He poisons the Deku Tree for no reason, he's a dick. He's not reasonable. He becomes King of Hyrule then destroys the kingdom, so what's the point?

Catsygreen · Jan 17, 2020

There's already a thread for Heavy Rain.

Plot holes in games?

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