Patrick Klepek: I Really Like 'God of War,' But Reserve The Right to Change My Mind

SlimeKnight · May 1, 2018

weekev said:
However more than a year later people are still holding BOTW as the yardstick for a masterpiece. Will we be saying in a years time "yeah this game is good but is it God of War good?" I'm not actually sure. I reckon the yardstick will still be BOTW.

Agree with this. It's common for me to play a great game when it first comes out and immediately go "One of the best games I've played in a long time! Definitely a classic!" and immediately get swept up in the hype and excitement only to look back on it a year or two later and think, "Eh, it's not THAT great."

I just finished God of War last night, and while I enjoyed it, I do not think it is a classic or a gaming milestone and certainly do not think it will age or hold up that well, a solid 8/10 for me.

Breath of the Wild, on the other hand, is unusual in that my love and admiration for it has only grown over time. I thought it was a masterpiece when I first played it last March; 14 months later, not only do I still feel the same about it, I actually think it's a strong contender for the greatest video game ever made, certainly in my Top 10.

Drey1082 · May 1, 2018

I really wish "Scoops" Klepec was back....

I'm kinda falling on the side of others who say this opinion article really doesn't say much other than one's opinion can change with time. I don't really see anyone outright arguing against that viewpoint out there. This seems like a pretty obvious opinion.

Furthermore, If this article was more about bioshock infinite, fair enough. But bringing this up in the context of God of War seems a odd. Like he knows there's something about it that's potentially troubling so he's hedging himself so he doesn't fall on the wrong side of history on this. I like patrick and I know that seems harsh, but I can't see what point in bringing up GOW there would otherwise be.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · May 1, 2018

Instro said:
Doesn't this highlight the entire issue with many reviewers? The brunt of the criticism for Inifinite stems from it's shallow mechanics and poor game design, which were overlooked by initial reviewers, and these types of issues are often overlooked or downplayed because reviewers are paying too much attention to presentstion and not doing their due diligence with the actual gameplay.

I mean, the most extreme criticism for Infinite comes down to that it sold itself as edgy and a game about racism, but Bioshock Infinite is a wildly racist game.

But there are a lot of gameplay criticisms after that as well.

Border · May 1, 2018

There's a reason I listen to podcasts at 1.5X or 1.8X speed

Oh god, Klepek listens to chipmunk podcasts. Is it just me, or does this kinda undermine the whole essay?

If you're willing to deeply compromise the basic integrity of the media you consume purely for the sake of gobbling up more media hand-over-fist......then yeah, your first impressions of a particular work are going to be pretty worthless. I don't want restaurant reviews from someone that wolfs down a steak in 4 minutes flat.

Funny Valentine · May 1, 2018

Bioshock Infinite is actually a perfect example of a divide between critics and their audience since I recall lots of actual players complaining about things like the boring combat/horde mode arenas, nonsensical story and awkward game structure (Gunsmith section anyone?) during the release window while critics sniffed their own self-important farts about Infinite for months.

Dremorak · May 1, 2018

NSA said:
I think reviews are always going to be flawed in the sense that they're a product of the time. I don't know if it is really possible to see something and 'know' it's going to be a classic for 5-10-20 years.

Yep. Case and point:

These were seen as bad (or at least confusing) controls at the time. Now they are standard. Times change.

sora87 · May 1, 2018

Thanks for letting us know Patrick

ItWasMeantToBe19 · May 1, 2018

Did Alien Resurrection have auto-aim?

Because dual-analog without generous auto-aim is absolutely terrible.

Animal Liberation Ⓥ · May 1, 2018

Drey1082 said:
I really wish "Scoops" Klepec was back....

I'm kinda falling on the side of others who say this opinion article really doesn't say much other than one's opinion can change with time. I don't really see anyone outright arguing against that viewpoint out there. This seems like a pretty obvious opinion.

Furthermore, If this article was more about bioshock infinite, fair enough. But bringing this up in the context of God of War seems a odd. Like he knows there's something about it that's potentially troubling so he's hedging himself so he doesn't fall on the wrong side of history on this. I like patrick and I know that seems harsh, but I can't see what point in bringing up GOW there would otherwise be.

GoW is the current new hotness, so you're more apt to read the article when it is mentioned at this point in time.

Cap G · May 1, 2018

Hype cycles and review deadlines simply aren't the most forward thinking styles of review, that's all. Hell, that's why he refers to what he felt from Bioshock Infinite "after the credits", as if that's the end of an interactive experience. These things are 30 hours long and meant be replayed a couple of times and reflected on in length in return.

I'm sure that if the popular opinion turns on God of War (which it won't in any large capacity, TLOU is still held in high regard and really so is Bioshock) then I'm sure the press will see the arguments put forth and internalize them in the future, but as long as the review format remains unchanged the problem will still remain. Games like Bioshock that make you feel good when the credits start will be praised highly, games that do little to explain themselves like Demons Souls will still get passed over until the more dedicated players go through them with a fine toothed comb. It is how it is.

Unaha-Closp · May 1, 2018

Well naturally. I loved Uncle Buck when I was young. Watched it much later - it's a nothing film about nothing. Enjoyable but so thin that it should be in the film hospital for fattening up. Did not stop me loving it when I was young. I thought this was a known and unneeded thought. Same applies being influenced by others opinions on things. But again I thought that was a known human trait.

TheIlliterati · May 1, 2018

Sounds like he'll like it until someone tells him it's culturally appropriating something or problematic and then dislike it. Opinions shift with the winds, and thus you can prevaricate like a motherfucker. Thus is the fake woke reviewer.

More_Badass · May 1, 2018

Drey1082 said:
I really wish "Scoops" Klepec was back....

I'm kinda falling on the side of others who say this opinion article really doesn't say much other than one's opinion can change with time. I don't really see anyone outright arguing against that viewpoint out there. This seems like a pretty obvious opinion

Considering how often people try to use "they gave this X, how could they give that a Y" as a response to reviews, that may not be as obvious to people as you think. A lot of people view review sites as monolithic entities rather than as a bunch of people who change and reassess their preferences over time

Drey1082 · May 1, 2018

Animal Liberation Ⓥ said:
Well, GoW is the current new hotness, so you're more apt to read the article when it is mentioned at this point in time.

I guess that's the obvious factor... I guess to rephrase it, i'm more interested in how GOW brought up this line of thinking.

More_Badass · May 1, 2018

TheIlliterati said:
Sounds like he'll like it until someone tells him it's culturally appropriating something or problematic and then dislike it. Opinions shift with the winds, and thus you can prevaricate like a motherfucker. Thus is the fake woke reviewer.

Is there something wrong with reassessing your opinion of something after hearing a different perspective?

NSA · May 1, 2018

Kasey said:
It's not really a flaw per se, unless the goal is "objectivity" which no reviewer should strive for.

Yeah, it's not a flaw in the standard sense. Only if you look back on the review expecting it to hold up to the test of time, which is pretty impossible to factor in when doing the review. Some will, most wont, but that shouldn't really be an issue.

Dremorak said:
Yep. Case and point:

These were seen as bad (or at least confusing) controls at the time. Now they are standard. Times change.

Haha.. yes. I am sure you can find this all the time in old reviews. But you can find it anywhere you look back in time.. people saying how horrible Star Wars was in 1977.. etc. The fact that games can and do actively change over time (updates, fixes, DLC, etc) also makes 'old reviews' kind of pointless.

Funny Valentine · May 1, 2018

TheIlliterati said:
Sounds like he'll like it until someone tells him it's culturally appropriating something or problematic and then dislike it. Opinions shift with the winds, and thus you can prevaricate like a motherfucker. Thus is the fake woke reviewer.

Performative wokeness has been the cottage industry of certain websites for years now.

Tranqueris · May 1, 2018

Carbine789 said:
I feel that whenever a new tame is released, we sometimes get caught up in the hype of it's released and don't noticed the flaws until that "hype" where's out.

This is this whole industry/gaming community in a nutshell now.

Piston · May 1, 2018

Patrick brings up a pretty prescient point here. It may seem obvious or just stupid to state out right, but all forms of media change in meaning and significance over time and games are no exception. This is going to be a reoccurring debate that pops up as games start to become even more like living works through patches, updates, and DLC. Their narrative and quality can change vastly over a year through these sorts of changes. That is all without taking into account their significance in the gaming landscape or in the greater context of the world at large.

If PUBG came out after Fortnite, there wouldn't have even been a bit of thought towards it being a GOTY candidate last year, for example.

Animal Liberation Ⓥ · May 1, 2018

Drey1082 said:
I guess that's the obvious factor... I guess to rephrase it, i'm more interested in how GOW brought up this line of thinking.

Same here.

Listonosh · May 1, 2018

The article is basically saying, "I'm protecting myself from my kneejerk reactions and the hype surrounding this game, and if I later have issues and say it's not GOTY then please don't link back to my original thoughts."

Seems to happen with a lot of new releases these days. And btw I'm all for changing your mind, I have no problem with that at all. Over time, cracks begin to show where you didn't see them at first, but this article is just silly

ItWasMeantToBe19 · May 1, 2018

Patrick's criticism and concern with God of War is that it's a sequel to a game where Kratos horrifically murders a begging woman to open a gate and yet God of War 4 does nothing to even gesture at scenes like that happening in prior games and, in fact, God of War only has one female character in the game.

And while he felt good enough about the rest of the game to enjoy God of War 4 now, he may have different feelings on those aspects in the future.

tl;dr version there you go.

LavaBadger · May 1, 2018

Filament Star said:
Is this basically saying "I reserve the right to find this game offensive later if someone else decides that it is?" Because that would be ridiculous and I could never take his reviews or writing seriously again.

Has no one ever changed your mind about something? Has no one ever brought you a new, different, and well reasoned argument that made you think, "Huh, yeah, I never thought of it that way, and I think you're right." We should all be open to other people's ideas and be willing to change our own in light of new information. (That of course doesn't mean we should just lean whatever way the wind happens to be blowing, but there's no reason to stand by a previous opinion if new information shows faults in it.)

There's nothing inherently trustworthy about someone with a static opinion.

Damn Silly · May 1, 2018

I had this hard with Heavy Rain (and David Cage in general tbh). At the time, it was quite unique and I loved it for what it was doing. Now that Telltale, Dontnod, Deck Nine and Supermassive have come along since and done "choice" games better, looking back at it has me liking it less and less -- although I still do think the finger scene is legitimately good.

MRYEAH · May 1, 2018

It's exactly what IGN has done with Dragon age Inquisition and Giant Bomb with PUBG as former GOTY winners
Ign pretends the old staff was wrong it's missing from their recent top 25 games
Giant Bomb is disgusted by Fortnite's success so they constantly give the I don't get it defense and yet try to prop up a game who captured a small moment
Waypoint writes thought provoking pieces and has staff I respect
But this and Austin's Farcry 5 piece about wanting a game that doesn't exist not their best work yet I still will think about the article so that's a positive

Border · May 1, 2018

Drey1082 said:
Like he knows there's something about it that's potentially troubling so he's hedging himself so he doesn't fall on the wrong side of history on this. I like patrick and I know that seems harsh, but I can't see what point in bringing up GOW there would otherwise be.

I did read this as some kind of bulwark against the finicky ultra-progressive audience he has sold himself to. "I really liked this game, but if someone else is able to show that it is racist or misogynistic then I do not wish to be held accountable for my opinion."

Kunka Kid · May 1, 2018

I like the article, but I think a fundamental difference between GoW and Infinite is that GoW's combat/gameplay is really strong, whereas it was easily the weakest part of Infinite's package.

To me, strong gameplay withstands the test of time in a way that story/production values don't.

Animal Liberation Ⓥ · May 1, 2018

Border said:
I did read this as some kind of bulwark against the finicky ultra-progressive audience he has sold himself to. "I really liked this game, but if someone else is able to show that it is racist or misogynistic then I do not wish to be held accountable for my opinion."

If this is the case, the yikes!

convo · May 1, 2018

I remember his Demon's Souls playthrough on youtube being the most miserable experience one can possibly have playing through that game. He had a change of heart since then and being a public figure from the giantbomb days, you can pin-point it to be when he played Zombi-U when he understood what the combat was actually about in souls games. Fast forward and he understands those games now and many others had similar experiences. That's perfectly normal but the fact that Journos and other internet people have their every opinion and action watched by weirdos who will do that makes that more complicated for them i guess. It's the feeling to justify your actions and motives maybe because he wants people to trust his word and know where he's coming from.

Catorze · May 1, 2018

I really really like Patrick and Austin. I loved the contrast when they were at Giant Bomb and went a little more "cerebral" on the discussions. And it's super important that Waypoint is what it is. But I gotta say sometimes I wish they were just a tiny bit less academic. Just like sometimes I wish Giant Bomb was a little less "I just inexplicably hate this game".
It's anyone's right to end up disliking a game with time, but I feel Patrick reviewed the game with his heart and now he in in conflict with his brain.

Deleted member 4494 · May 1, 2018

Piston said:
Patrick brings up a pretty prescient point here. It may seem obvious or just stupid to state out right, but all forms of media change in meaning and significance over time and games are no exception. This is going to be a reoccurring debate that pops up as games start to become even more like living works through patches, updates, and DLC. Their narrative and quality can change vastly over a year through these sorts of changes. That is all without taking into account their significance in the gaming landscape or in the greater context of the world at large.

Kind of a difficult problem to solve moving in the other direction.

It's not hard to see why people are leaning towards revising their takes on GaaS games; after all, a lot of what is said about a broken game is not necessarily true a year down the road. On the other hand, if you give a game a 9/10 when you played it, and it's still the exact same game but your tastes have changed, do you reserve the right to swing back in there and just downgrade your take on it?

Like, imagine of everyone wakes up tomorrow and decides that Breath of the Wild, for instance, just isn't that refreshing in this day and age after so many games copied it. Is it okay to go back and change that to a 5/10 to reflect your change on it? Why or why not? And granted, he's not necessarily talking about doing this, but this kind of bet hedging seems like it's leaning a bit in that kind of direction, doesn't it?

Funny Valentine · May 1, 2018

More_Badass said:
Is there something wrong with reassessing your opinion of something after hearing a different perspective?

It's fine to change your opinion but writing a whole self-indulgent article about yourself potentially changing your opinion maybe after reading your friend's woke article is laughable. That's the Kotaku version of Patrick Klepek for you I guess.

1080peace · May 1, 2018

Funny Valentine said:
Performative wokeness has been the cottage industry of certain websites for years now.

Are you accusing Austin Walker EIC of Waypoint and the site at large of performative wokeness?

MRYEAH said:
Giant Bomb is disgusted by Fortnite's success

Ah yes, so disgusted that members of the staff talked about it favourably on multiple podcasts and streamed the game multiple times.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · May 1, 2018

Border said:
I did read this as some kind of bulwark against the finicky ultra-progressive audience he has sold himself to. "I really liked this game, but if someone else is able to show that it is racist or misogynistic then I do not wish to be held accountable for my opinion."

Patrick pretty much says he thinks the game is misogynistic by burying its past misogyny and having no female characters except Freya and Kratos' dead wife.

But he doesn't know how much that will affect his feelings on the game in the future or how strongly misogynist he will feel the game is in the future.

There isn't going to be discovered knowledge here...

ghostcrew · May 1, 2018

MRYEAH said:
Giant Bomb is disgusted by Fortnite's success so they constantly give the I don't get it defense and yet try to prop up a game who captured a small moment.

What?

TheIlliterati · May 1, 2018

More_Badass said:
Is there something wrong with reassessing your opinion of something after hearing a different perspective?

No, in general that's fine. When you're couching your opinion of all media going forward with "Hey guys, I'm afraid to like anything until minorities tell me how to feel..." y'know, I just really don't care. Don't express your opinion at all then. If he plays through God of War and doesn't nitpick misogyny out of it(I haven't played it, just for example) and then someone has to point it out to him...is the game really misogynistic? Is his earlier opinion invalid?

famikon · May 1, 2018

Maybe he should write for Retro Gamer instead?

Viale · May 1, 2018

I get it. Tastes change over time, so of course you might think differently on something from the past. That being said, I find it kind of strange that, despite liking it, it's almost like he expects to not like it in the future. Maybe other people are different, but for me, there isn't a whole lot of things I like a lot at the time and then backtrack to not liking. There are more instances of me thinking that there was no way I liked something as much as I did before replaying it, and promptly remembering why I loved it.

More_Badass · May 1, 2018

TheIlliterati said:
No, in general that's fine. When you're couching your opinion of all media going forward with "Hey guys, I'm afraid to like anything until minorities tell me how to feel..." y'know, I just really don't care. Don't express your opinion at all then. If he plays through God of War and doesn't nitpick misogyny out of it(I haven't played it, just for example) and then someone has to point it out to him...is the game really misogynistic? Is his earlier opinion invalid?

They did point it out. It was a major discussion in their review podcast; in fact, they were wondering why most other reviewers weren't discussing or mentioning it

Deleted member 2793 · May 1, 2018

This is a general problem with gaming and that makes the whole medium look immature. Every new big release gets ultra high average numbers. Like, people already think a 80MC score is low. It's obviosly not MC's fault and I don't think the critics are being corrupt or anything, but gaming criticism feels like it goes with "the moment" too much. This + the hate reviewers get when they score games with TERRIBLE scores like 8 (the horror) make me thing that it makes harder for people to actually voice their opinions about these games at peak hype.

Riderz1337 · May 1, 2018

So he is easily influenced by others.

Ok

Piston · May 1, 2018

Spoo said:
Kind of a difficult problem to solve moving in the other direction.

It's not hard to see why people are leaning towards revising their takes on GaaS games; after all, a lot of what is said about a broken game is not necessarily true a year down the road. On the other hand, if you give a game a 9/10 when you played it, and it's still the exact same game but your tastes have changed, do you reserve the right to swing back in there and just downgrade your take on it?

Like, imagine of everyone wakes up tomorrow and decides that Breath of the Wild, for instance, just isn't that refreshing in this day and age after so many games copied it. Is it okay to go back and change that to a 5/10 to reflect your change on it? Why or why not? And granted, he's not necessarily talking about doing this, but this kind of bet hedging seems like it's leaning a bit in that kind of direction, doesn't it?

It's interesting because I don't think this situation really pops up often, but lets use your Breath of the Wild theoretical there. If a game came out immediately after or even a few months after Breath of the Wild that improved upon what the game set out to do. It somehow further solved the open world story conundrum and provided better content than the shrines or more satisfying combat/exploration, I would definitely look back at Breath of the Wild with a critical look and ask if it still deserved that score.

Mifune · May 1, 2018

Good god Waypoint is insufferable.

Ploid 6.0 · May 1, 2018

I didn't see his wife, but she seemed bigger than lif..e. Ok I typed that out not realizing. She seemed like the best character. Also Freya was awesome too. Two of the best characters, then of course you have the 5 or so other characters but Fey and Freya were amazing and seemed to be respected a lot.

Gestault · May 1, 2018

1080peace said:
Are accusing Austin Walker EIC of Waypoint and the site at large of performative wokeness?

This thread has been a good resource for my ignore list. I didn't even see who you were replying to; I recognized the "substance" of the post right away.

Cap G · May 1, 2018

I do have to say, it's kind of amazing how a person who is supposed to have opinions of video games for a living is making a public statement that what they feel about the game's design is so disconnected from their opinion of the experience that they are future proofing backlash from this intensely subjective narrative experience.

If you wrote a paper on how good a game PAC-MAN was in 1998 your opinion would still be just as relevant today. Mechanics and interactivity age generally far better than noninteractive and subjective story sequences are able to.

Kunka Kid · May 1, 2018

Border said:
I did read this as some kind of bulwark against the finicky ultra-progressive audience he has sold himself to. "I really liked this game, but if someone else is able to show that it is racist or misogynistic then I do not wish to be held accountable for my opinion."

This nails it

1080peace · May 1, 2018

Gestault said:
This thread has been a good resource for my ignore list. I didn't even see who you were replying to; I recognized the "substance" of the post right away.

Smart thinking. This is a take that I only want to read once, good lord.

More_Badass · May 1, 2018

Spoo said:
Kind of a difficult problem to solve moving in the other direction.

It's not hard to see why people are leaning towards revising their takes on GaaS games; after all, a lot of what is said about a broken game is not necessarily true a year down the road. On the other hand, if you give a game a 9/10 when you played it, and it's still the exact same game but your tastes have changed, do you reserve the right to swing back in there and just downgrade your take on it?

Like, imagine of everyone wakes up tomorrow and decides that Breath of the Wild, for instance, just isn't that refreshing in this day and age after so many games copied it. Is it okay to go back and change that to a 5/10 to reflect your change on it? Why or why not? And granted, he's not necessarily talking about doing this, but this kind of bet hedging seems like it's leaning a bit in that kind of direction, doesn't it?

Why not? How you feel about something now doesn't make your previous perspective invalid. With books, movies, shows, etc, this is all perfectly fine and even expected. Like I saw Alien and Blade Runner multiple times and disliked them, found them boring, then I saw The Witch and gained a new appreciation for slow-burn dread and storytelling, and now I love those movies. I used to enjoy Terminator 2 much more than the first, but now I find The Terminator a better movie than its sequel. Revisiting Stephen King's books now after reading them as a kid made me appreciate them differently and see different ones as my favorites.

Why is that so hard to accept with games?

CannonFodder52 · May 1, 2018

Riderz1337 said:
So he is easily influenced by others.

Ok

No person has every perspective.

Funny Valentine said:
Performative wokeness has been the cottage industry of certain websites for years now.

Come on

Patrick Klepek: I Really Like 'God of War,' But Reserve The Right to Change My Mind

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