tl;dr at the bottom
Reason #1: It makes sense narratively after the conclusion of NwH
Let's look at this first and foremost from a storytelling perspective. Peter Parker in the MCU is getting a fresh start of being entirely on his own as a superhero in New York City since 2016 (if that's when Cap3 takes place). we didn't even get that much context of how he operated as that friendly neighborhood vigilante, other than his homemade suit and the Youtube video that Stark pulled up of him saving people from a bus crash. How Stark found out about him is a whole nother question, but it's not important.
By the end of NwH, he made his own suit, he's back to making his own webshooters, and he's operating as a sole vigilante in New York City (at least that's what it looks like). So with a Peter Parker who is now an adult, but still a very young adult at that, he's gonna get the full swing (no pun intended) of the great responsibility that comes with great power.
Reason #2: Spider-Man teaming up with Daredevil WILL make a lot of money
But who else operates as a sole vigilante in New York City? Matt Murdock! Who Peter himself was acquainted with in NwH for acquitting him of the murder of Mysterio. But our very own Daredevil doesn't know that, because he's part of the earth's population that completely forgot who Peter Parker is. But he does know that there is another vigilante in New York, Spider-Man. I think this would be the perfect opportunity for them to take inspiration from the 90s cartoon, and have these two heroes be adversaries at first, and then realize that they are on the same side. It's something the DCEU should have done too, to a much larger extent.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZav0UcLWaE
Matt may need to get reacquainted with Peter, but Peter never knew Matt was also a superhero. All he knew was that Matt's a really good lawyer. so the dramatic irony of them not knowing each other's double lives, would be a fun, entertaining plot point to incorporate. it's a comical irony, at that. And we all know how popular Netflix's Daredevil series was, right? It was one of Netflix's biggest hits for a while back in the day. And I remember also back in the day how naysayers were saying that Daredevil just isn't canon to the MCU, but with the advent of Echo & Marvel Spotlight, I'm glad that (quite frankly ridiculous) argument has been put to rest. At least, I hope it has been to rest.
There was arguably just as much hype back in 2021 to Matt Murdock's appearance in NwH as there was to the appearances of the legacy Spider-Men. the character was also a huge draw because of how he was getting teased as appearing in She-Hulk in 2022. Sony knows this. they used a frame from Matt Murdock appearance as the thumbnail of the first 10 minutes of NwH on Youtube, which as of today has over 3 million views:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_Vz7-buOk
all this is to say, if Spider-Man 4 included Daredevil in a major role, there would certainly be an audience for it! it's something that's never been done before. I think hardcore fans and even casual fans alike, would love to see this live action team-up. I personally have been waiting for it for almost 10 years! and guess what...I am not the only...Daredevil HIMSELF has also waited a decade for the opportunity to fight alongside the webhead:
View: https://youtu.be/E-npCuULIdg?si=m2A-9R_EYGhms3XV&t=303
(should be timestamped to 5:03)
As a side note, Matt Murdock did have a cameo in Spider-Verse 1, so here is to hoping he may be involved in Spider-Verse 3. The Spot is also a villain of Daredevil's and the movie is called "Beyond" the Spider-Verse, so...
Reason #3: It's time to take street-level Thanos to the big screen
That's right. In Marvel's own words, the Kingpin is the street level mad Titan. I quote Brad Winderbaum who worked on Echo saying:
Back in 2021 when the rumors were up about him showing up in Hawkeye, there was also the rumor that D'Onofrio signed a gigantic contract with Disney too. I cannot locate the tweet right now unfortunately, otherwise I would post it too. The late Michael Clarke Duncan previously portrayed Kingpin in the first Daredevil movie, and while I liked his portrayal, it has been 20 years since we got a live action portrayal of Kingpin again on the big screen. He did voice Kingpin in the 2003 Spider-Man animated series, and it makes me wonder if Fox & Sony had discussions about a crossover back in the day.
But if Kingpin would be the main villain of Spider-Man 4, he shouldn't be a one & done villain. The canceled Netflix version of the Daredevil show had a season 4 & 5 planned, and the fifth season was supposed to feature a final showdown between him & Daredevil. I'll talk more about that later.
Reason #4: Michael Mando is acting prowess waiting to happen
I have to start this point off by saying that I am aware it may not be as popular of a fan request than a Spider-Man partnering up with Daredevil fighting Kingpin, but it is still a popular request nonetheless. Michael Mando was phenomenal in Better Call Saul, and no doubt would give a memorable portrayal as the Scorpion - or even a villainous Venom down the line. We've yet to see what that drop of the symbiote at the end of NwH and the possible retcon in Venom 3 will lead to, but Mac Gargan was one of Spider-Man's enemies that became Venom.
I was hoping he would have been in NwH as a sixth villain, the one villain who is from the main universe who could lead the other villains since he's familiar with that Spider-Man, got to know who he is, wanted to know who he was to get vengeance, fought this Spider-Man before only without superpowers - but we have not seen him since the mid credit scene in Homecoming:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLpx7j4t5MY
Reason #5: The actors are getting older and older
There have been a lot of rumors about MCU Spider-Man 4. Some have been about the idea described in this thread, but the more recent ones (you know, after the Kang to Dr. Doom pivot) are about the movie being basically another NwH. So if we were to get this dream team, it wouldn't even happen for another half decade, or even a full decade from now. Charlie Cox will be in his mid 40s by then and definitely still young, but D'Onofrio will be close to 70. and that would make this his first altercation with Spider-Man. but as I explained in point #1, it just doesn't make sense narrative wise to have another high stakes Spider-Man movie after we got what was described as the Endgame of Spider-Man movies. And I am not even opposed to having another multiverse movie - but I will get to that a little later.
Now as I said, I don't want Kingpin to be a one & done villain. Of course, there is also the question of Tom Holland, who will be already in his 30s if we don't get this dream team as the next movie. Obviously, like Cox that's still very young, but at that point in time in his career, he may not want to keep playing the character. Which may also work out for for the narrative, which I will get into now.
Reason #6: We can still have another live action Spider-Verse, but later
I've alluded to this in previous points but it's not that I would mind a NwH 2.0, but just not as the direct sequel to it. Spider-Man 4 is presumably going to be the start of a new trilogy, right? I mentioned Spider-Verse 1 earlier when I said Matt Murdock cameo'd in it, well Spider-Verse 2 is also relevant to this conversation because that was the first time in 6 years we got to see the MCU Prowler...even if he wasn't in an MCU movie. And it was in a movie that starred MILES MORALES himself as the protagonist! As Tom Holland and subsequently his character Peter Parker continues to age - and with the advent of showing the Prowler in a cameo I feel like there is an opportunity here to introduce a Miles somewhere out there in 616 Brooklyn.
Maybe Sony/Disney are planning to include a (very) young Miles in Spider-Man 4 anyway. but regardless of that, if they go the route of this thread, I think having Miles show up in this movie would be a good setup. Maybe the mid credit scene could be him getting bit, and Spider-Man 5 could be a protege/mentor relationship between Peter and Miles not unlike Spider-Verse 1. maybe that could be the film where Peter has the symbiote, and part of Miles' relationship with him is helping Spider0Man get back to his senses and splitting with it. I didn't play Spider-Man 2 for Ps5, so I don't know if the game tackled the symbiote storyline that way.
Maybe it's a coincidence that this thread has six points because Spider-Man 6 could be the Sinister 6 movie that Sony has always wanted. So include the Prowler in the team, or don't - save him for a future Spider-Man series where Miles takes over as the protagonist. That could either entail 616 Peter Parker retiring, passing the baton to Miles, or just going part-time as Spider-Man, full time as a science teacher (I think that's comic book accurate_ while Miles goes full time as Spider-Man. If the suits want to really take a risk, they could go ahead and have a villain kill 616 Peter. There was a rumor of Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man showing up in Dr. Strange 2 with Scarlet Witch killing him. I can't find a source for that rumor now, but I consider that rumor to be 50% true since we got John Krasinski's Mr. Fantastic shown up and he was the one who ends up getting killed.
Fan posters of NwH also included Daredevil in costume, back when Charlie Cox's appearance was still a rumor, so the full extent of his role was unknown. so as a conclusion to the second trilogy, Spider-Man 6 could be a massive team of Tom Holland Spider-Man, Miles Morales Spider-Man, Tobey Maguire Spider-Man, Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, Daredevil.... and, maybe Insomniac Spider-Man? His suit was in Spider-Verse 1, and he appeared in two separate scenes as a real character in Spider-Verse 2. THAT would be epic. But we need to build up to that first, from a grounded, street level Spider-Man 4 film. Then we can have a bigger spectacle in Spider-Man 5, and then a very high stakes, full on multiverse/live action Spider-Verse/Avengers level threat for Spider-Man 6: Spider-Society versus Sinister Six. THAT would be epic!
Kingpin can be the final threat as the seventh villain, and maybe Drew Goddard and the OG Netflix Daredevil team can incorporate elements of their original season 5 ending into it too - as I alluded to earlier, before getting canceled, the Netflix show's crescendo was supposed to be a final showdown between Murdock and Fisk. I know this about to veer into fan fiction, but let's say the Sinister 6 is/are defeated, with Daredevil's assistance. But since he also has a personal grudge with Kingpin, as he tries to make an escape, Daredevil corners him similarly to how his exit was blocked by Daredevil at the end of season 3. Then the final showdown ensues, after 3 seasons of the Netflix show and however many seasons of Born Again, this is the crescendo we have all waited for and while Kingpin gains the upper-hand, MCU Spider-Man appears for one final collaborative effort with his best-superhero-friend. The other Spider-Men would have stuck around, but have their own businesses in their respective universes.
Cue a new trilogy with Miles Morales as the main character.
tl;dr
I know I'm wordy. I'll try be as concise as possible.
#1: If we go with an organic story, everything just makes for Spider-Man 4 to be a grounded, street level movie. Since the contract between Sony & Disney still dictates that MCU characters can show up in the Spider-Man movies, this time it should be Daredevil since we got the tease of catching the brick by the really good lawyer.
#2: Spider-Man + Daredevil is definitely a high box office potential movie. It's never been done before, and Sony has to be somewhat aware of the character's popularity, since a still image of him was used as the thumbnail of the first 10 minutes of NwH on Youtube. His face was also included on the rerelease poster of NwH.
#3: Marvel themselves have stated that Wilson Fisk is gonna be the street level Thanos. I didn't complete watching Echo, but he is best known as an adversary of Spider-Man's, and Daredevils. Practically all of the actors involved have been wanting this onscreen teamup and battle for a decade, ever since Spider-Man was first announced to join the MCU.
#4: Michael Mando as the Scorpion is just wasted talent. Everyone who has seen Better Call Saul knows the potential we can see him in as Scorpion or Venom in the MCU. He can be a secondary villain, because Kingpin should not be a one & done; Kingpin should be around for this film, the Daredevil series, and for the concluding chapter of the new Spider-Man trilogy.
#5: If the latest rumors are true and Sony & Disney are pivoting to Spider-Man 4 being just another live action Spider-Verse, then that means we'll either never get the film premise of the thread, or we'll get it many years down the road. While Charlie Cox will still be young, Vincent D'Onofrio will be getting quite old. He's an amazing actor but it just doesn't make sense to not take advantage of whatever contract he currently has signed with the suits.
#6: We can still have a live action Spider-Verse movie, but we need to build up to it first. Spider-Man 4 can be the ground level movie introducing Miles, Spider-Man 5 can be the symbiote movie picking up from the drop of Venom in NwH's midcredit scene, and Spider-Man 6 can be the Sinister 6 movie that Sony has been wishing could happen since the ASM series got canceled; they can bring back Tobey, Andrew, have Cox be a Daredevil assisting the Spider-Men with Kingpin being the seventh final villain, concluding his MCU character arc as the Mad Titan of the street level storytelling.
Cue a new trilogy with Miles Morales as the main character.
So, what do you think?
Reason #1: It makes sense narratively after the conclusion of NwH
Let's look at this first and foremost from a storytelling perspective. Peter Parker in the MCU is getting a fresh start of being entirely on his own as a superhero in New York City since 2016 (if that's when Cap3 takes place). we didn't even get that much context of how he operated as that friendly neighborhood vigilante, other than his homemade suit and the Youtube video that Stark pulled up of him saving people from a bus crash. How Stark found out about him is a whole nother question, but it's not important.
By the end of NwH, he made his own suit, he's back to making his own webshooters, and he's operating as a sole vigilante in New York City (at least that's what it looks like). So with a Peter Parker who is now an adult, but still a very young adult at that, he's gonna get the full swing (no pun intended) of the great responsibility that comes with great power.
Reason #2: Spider-Man teaming up with Daredevil WILL make a lot of money
But who else operates as a sole vigilante in New York City? Matt Murdock! Who Peter himself was acquainted with in NwH for acquitting him of the murder of Mysterio. But our very own Daredevil doesn't know that, because he's part of the earth's population that completely forgot who Peter Parker is. But he does know that there is another vigilante in New York, Spider-Man. I think this would be the perfect opportunity for them to take inspiration from the 90s cartoon, and have these two heroes be adversaries at first, and then realize that they are on the same side. It's something the DCEU should have done too, to a much larger extent.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZav0UcLWaE
Matt may need to get reacquainted with Peter, but Peter never knew Matt was also a superhero. All he knew was that Matt's a really good lawyer. so the dramatic irony of them not knowing each other's double lives, would be a fun, entertaining plot point to incorporate. it's a comical irony, at that. And we all know how popular Netflix's Daredevil series was, right? It was one of Netflix's biggest hits for a while back in the day. And I remember also back in the day how naysayers were saying that Daredevil just isn't canon to the MCU, but with the advent of Echo & Marvel Spotlight, I'm glad that (quite frankly ridiculous) argument has been put to rest. At least, I hope it has been to rest.
There was arguably just as much hype back in 2021 to Matt Murdock's appearance in NwH as there was to the appearances of the legacy Spider-Men. the character was also a huge draw because of how he was getting teased as appearing in She-Hulk in 2022. Sony knows this. they used a frame from Matt Murdock appearance as the thumbnail of the first 10 minutes of NwH on Youtube, which as of today has over 3 million views:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_Vz7-buOk
all this is to say, if Spider-Man 4 included Daredevil in a major role, there would certainly be an audience for it! it's something that's never been done before. I think hardcore fans and even casual fans alike, would love to see this live action team-up. I personally have been waiting for it for almost 10 years! and guess what...I am not the only...Daredevil HIMSELF has also waited a decade for the opportunity to fight alongside the webhead:
View: https://youtu.be/E-npCuULIdg?si=m2A-9R_EYGhms3XV&t=303
(should be timestamped to 5:03)
As a side note, Matt Murdock did have a cameo in Spider-Verse 1, so here is to hoping he may be involved in Spider-Verse 3. The Spot is also a villain of Daredevil's and the movie is called "Beyond" the Spider-Verse, so...
Reason #3: It's time to take street-level Thanos to the big screen
That's right. In Marvel's own words, the Kingpin is the street level mad Titan. I quote Brad Winderbaum who worked on Echo saying:
Now ain't that an enticing thought?! Speaking of Thanos, imagine how thought-provoking a conversation could have been between Wilson Fisk & Thanos! And just like our very own Darevil, Kingpin himself, Vincent D'Onofrio has been wanting to be onscreen with the MCU Spider-Man since his debut in Daredevil season 1 back in 2015. He's just as much of a villain of Spider-Man's as he is Daredevil's. Here's an fan art of him carrying a suitcase and a newspaper with "multiverse" written on it, in homage to the film Uncle Buck starring the late John Candy. For some reason, I am unable to embed it.
Back in 2021 when the rumors were up about him showing up in Hawkeye, there was also the rumor that D'Onofrio signed a gigantic contract with Disney too. I cannot locate the tweet right now unfortunately, otherwise I would post it too. The late Michael Clarke Duncan previously portrayed Kingpin in the first Daredevil movie, and while I liked his portrayal, it has been 20 years since we got a live action portrayal of Kingpin again on the big screen. He did voice Kingpin in the 2003 Spider-Man animated series, and it makes me wonder if Fox & Sony had discussions about a crossover back in the day.
But if Kingpin would be the main villain of Spider-Man 4, he shouldn't be a one & done villain. The canceled Netflix version of the Daredevil show had a season 4 & 5 planned, and the fifth season was supposed to feature a final showdown between him & Daredevil. I'll talk more about that later.
Reason #4: Michael Mando is acting prowess waiting to happen
I have to start this point off by saying that I am aware it may not be as popular of a fan request than a Spider-Man partnering up with Daredevil fighting Kingpin, but it is still a popular request nonetheless. Michael Mando was phenomenal in Better Call Saul, and no doubt would give a memorable portrayal as the Scorpion - or even a villainous Venom down the line. We've yet to see what that drop of the symbiote at the end of NwH and the possible retcon in Venom 3 will lead to, but Mac Gargan was one of Spider-Man's enemies that became Venom.
I was hoping he would have been in NwH as a sixth villain, the one villain who is from the main universe who could lead the other villains since he's familiar with that Spider-Man, got to know who he is, wanted to know who he was to get vengeance, fought this Spider-Man before only without superpowers - but we have not seen him since the mid credit scene in Homecoming:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLpx7j4t5MY
Reason #5: The actors are getting older and older
There have been a lot of rumors about MCU Spider-Man 4. Some have been about the idea described in this thread, but the more recent ones (you know, after the Kang to Dr. Doom pivot) are about the movie being basically another NwH. So if we were to get this dream team, it wouldn't even happen for another half decade, or even a full decade from now. Charlie Cox will be in his mid 40s by then and definitely still young, but D'Onofrio will be close to 70. and that would make this his first altercation with Spider-Man. but as I explained in point #1, it just doesn't make sense narrative wise to have another high stakes Spider-Man movie after we got what was described as the Endgame of Spider-Man movies. And I am not even opposed to having another multiverse movie - but I will get to that a little later.
Now as I said, I don't want Kingpin to be a one & done villain. Of course, there is also the question of Tom Holland, who will be already in his 30s if we don't get this dream team as the next movie. Obviously, like Cox that's still very young, but at that point in time in his career, he may not want to keep playing the character. Which may also work out for for the narrative, which I will get into now.
Reason #6: We can still have another live action Spider-Verse, but later
I've alluded to this in previous points but it's not that I would mind a NwH 2.0, but just not as the direct sequel to it. Spider-Man 4 is presumably going to be the start of a new trilogy, right? I mentioned Spider-Verse 1 earlier when I said Matt Murdock cameo'd in it, well Spider-Verse 2 is also relevant to this conversation because that was the first time in 6 years we got to see the MCU Prowler...even if he wasn't in an MCU movie. And it was in a movie that starred MILES MORALES himself as the protagonist! As Tom Holland and subsequently his character Peter Parker continues to age - and with the advent of showing the Prowler in a cameo I feel like there is an opportunity here to introduce a Miles somewhere out there in 616 Brooklyn.
Maybe Sony/Disney are planning to include a (very) young Miles in Spider-Man 4 anyway. but regardless of that, if they go the route of this thread, I think having Miles show up in this movie would be a good setup. Maybe the mid credit scene could be him getting bit, and Spider-Man 5 could be a protege/mentor relationship between Peter and Miles not unlike Spider-Verse 1. maybe that could be the film where Peter has the symbiote, and part of Miles' relationship with him is helping Spider0Man get back to his senses and splitting with it. I didn't play Spider-Man 2 for Ps5, so I don't know if the game tackled the symbiote storyline that way.
Maybe it's a coincidence that this thread has six points because Spider-Man 6 could be the Sinister 6 movie that Sony has always wanted. So include the Prowler in the team, or don't - save him for a future Spider-Man series where Miles takes over as the protagonist. That could either entail 616 Peter Parker retiring, passing the baton to Miles, or just going part-time as Spider-Man, full time as a science teacher (I think that's comic book accurate_ while Miles goes full time as Spider-Man. If the suits want to really take a risk, they could go ahead and have a villain kill 616 Peter. There was a rumor of Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man showing up in Dr. Strange 2 with Scarlet Witch killing him. I can't find a source for that rumor now, but I consider that rumor to be 50% true since we got John Krasinski's Mr. Fantastic shown up and he was the one who ends up getting killed.
Fan posters of NwH also included Daredevil in costume, back when Charlie Cox's appearance was still a rumor, so the full extent of his role was unknown. so as a conclusion to the second trilogy, Spider-Man 6 could be a massive team of Tom Holland Spider-Man, Miles Morales Spider-Man, Tobey Maguire Spider-Man, Andrew Garfield Spider-Man, Daredevil.... and, maybe Insomniac Spider-Man? His suit was in Spider-Verse 1, and he appeared in two separate scenes as a real character in Spider-Verse 2. THAT would be epic. But we need to build up to that first, from a grounded, street level Spider-Man 4 film. Then we can have a bigger spectacle in Spider-Man 5, and then a very high stakes, full on multiverse/live action Spider-Verse/Avengers level threat for Spider-Man 6: Spider-Society versus Sinister Six. THAT would be epic!
Kingpin can be the final threat as the seventh villain, and maybe Drew Goddard and the OG Netflix Daredevil team can incorporate elements of their original season 5 ending into it too - as I alluded to earlier, before getting canceled, the Netflix show's crescendo was supposed to be a final showdown between Murdock and Fisk. I know this about to veer into fan fiction, but let's say the Sinister 6 is/are defeated, with Daredevil's assistance. But since he also has a personal grudge with Kingpin, as he tries to make an escape, Daredevil corners him similarly to how his exit was blocked by Daredevil at the end of season 3. Then the final showdown ensues, after 3 seasons of the Netflix show and however many seasons of Born Again, this is the crescendo we have all waited for and while Kingpin gains the upper-hand, MCU Spider-Man appears for one final collaborative effort with his best-superhero-friend. The other Spider-Men would have stuck around, but have their own businesses in their respective universes.
Cue a new trilogy with Miles Morales as the main character.
tl;dr
I know I'm wordy. I'll try be as concise as possible.
#1: If we go with an organic story, everything just makes for Spider-Man 4 to be a grounded, street level movie. Since the contract between Sony & Disney still dictates that MCU characters can show up in the Spider-Man movies, this time it should be Daredevil since we got the tease of catching the brick by the really good lawyer.
#2: Spider-Man + Daredevil is definitely a high box office potential movie. It's never been done before, and Sony has to be somewhat aware of the character's popularity, since a still image of him was used as the thumbnail of the first 10 minutes of NwH on Youtube. His face was also included on the rerelease poster of NwH.
#3: Marvel themselves have stated that Wilson Fisk is gonna be the street level Thanos. I didn't complete watching Echo, but he is best known as an adversary of Spider-Man's, and Daredevils. Practically all of the actors involved have been wanting this onscreen teamup and battle for a decade, ever since Spider-Man was first announced to join the MCU.
#4: Michael Mando as the Scorpion is just wasted talent. Everyone who has seen Better Call Saul knows the potential we can see him in as Scorpion or Venom in the MCU. He can be a secondary villain, because Kingpin should not be a one & done; Kingpin should be around for this film, the Daredevil series, and for the concluding chapter of the new Spider-Man trilogy.
#5: If the latest rumors are true and Sony & Disney are pivoting to Spider-Man 4 being just another live action Spider-Verse, then that means we'll either never get the film premise of the thread, or we'll get it many years down the road. While Charlie Cox will still be young, Vincent D'Onofrio will be getting quite old. He's an amazing actor but it just doesn't make sense to not take advantage of whatever contract he currently has signed with the suits.
#6: We can still have a live action Spider-Verse movie, but we need to build up to it first. Spider-Man 4 can be the ground level movie introducing Miles, Spider-Man 5 can be the symbiote movie picking up from the drop of Venom in NwH's midcredit scene, and Spider-Man 6 can be the Sinister 6 movie that Sony has been wishing could happen since the ASM series got canceled; they can bring back Tobey, Andrew, have Cox be a Daredevil assisting the Spider-Men with Kingpin being the seventh final villain, concluding his MCU character arc as the Mad Titan of the street level storytelling.
Cue a new trilogy with Miles Morales as the main character.
So, what do you think?
