NPR - How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled (to sell more plastic)

SigmasonicX · Sep 11, 2020

How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

An NPR and PBS Frontline investigation reveals how the oil and gas industry used the promise of recycling to sell more plastic, even when they knew it would never work on a large scale.

www.npr.org

"I remember the first meeting where I actually told a city council that it was costing more to recycle than it was to dispose of the same material as garbage," she says, "and it was like heresy had been spoken in the room: You're lying. This is gold. We take the time to clean it, take the labels off, separate it and put it here. It's gold. This is valuable."

But it's not valuable, and it never has been. And what's more, the makers of plastic — the nation's largest oil and gas companies — have known this all along, even as they spent millions of dollars telling the American public the opposite.

The industry's awareness that recycling wouldn't keep plastic out of landfills and the environment dates to the program's earliest days, we found. "There is serious doubt that [recycling plastic] can ever be made viable on an economic basis," one industry insider wrote in a 1974 speech.

Yet the industry spent millions telling people to recycle, because, as one former top industry insider told NPR, selling recycling sold plastic, even if it wasn't true.

"If the public thinks that recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment," Larry Thomas, former president of the Society of the Plastics Industry, known today as the Plastics Industry Association and one of the industry's most powerful trade groups in Washington, D.C., told NPR.

Here's the basic problem: All used plastic can be turned into new things, but picking it up, sorting it out and melting it down is expensive. Plastic also degrades each time it is reused, meaning it can't be reused more than once or twice.

On the other hand, new plastic is cheap. It's made from oil and gas, and it's almost always less expensive and of better quality to just start fresh.

All of these problems have existed for decades, no matter what new recycling technology or expensive machinery has been developed. In all that time, less than 10 percent of plastic has ever been recycled. But the public has known little about these difficulties.

It could be because that's not what they were told.

The article goes into detail about how in the late 80's, there was a growing outcry against plastics and how much plastic trash there was. Promoting recycling was part of an effort to clean up the image of plastic, even though the oil and plastic companies knew it wasn't actually viable.

It's disgusting, and definitely fills in the blanks about how we got to this state. The corporate lines about how recycling will be more efficient soon are exactly what they were saying back in the 90's.

nsilvias · Sep 11, 2020

big oil truly has fucked us in more ways than one

Dreams-Visions · Sep 11, 2020

All of these problems have existed for decades, no matter what new recycling technology or expensive machinery has been developed. In all that time, less than 10 percent of plastic has ever been recycled. But the public has known little about these difficulties.

Fucking OOF. Also, I'd like to take a moment to stay that I love NPR with all my heart.

metsallica · Sep 11, 2020

There was a previous thread about a documentary on this a few months ago, I think. They knew this for over 50 years. 50. Years.

Curler · Sep 11, 2020

It's such a sad lie I had believed my whole life... Used to make extra money as a kid sorting bottles and thing like after the holidays after family gatherings and whatnot. Made a few dollars, and felt good about 'doing my part'. All those commercials saying how many plastic bottles we recycled "circle the earth x amount of times", and those (few) items that say how they were made with 100% recyclable plastics.

Fast forward to now, and you learn about and hear stories of how expensive it is to actual make these things into new products, and how most of it ends up into trash, which then gets sold to other countries across the ocean to deal with :/

It's sad and it stinks.

Ultima_5 · Sep 11, 2020

Consumer level recycling has been a scam since the start.

However that 10% number is lower than i was expecting.

reduce > reuse > recycle in order of importance.

rsfour · Sep 11, 2020

Every single one of these fucks should rot in hell.

TheZynster · Sep 11, 2020

Less than 10 percent............holy shit, I almost feel like all my recycling habits have been fucking worthless. WHAT THE HELL

metsallica · Sep 11, 2020

Curler said:
It's such a sad lie I had believed my whole life... Used to make extra money as a kid sorting bottles and thing like after the holidays after family gatherings and whatnot. Made a few dollars, and felt good about 'doing my part'. All those commercials saying how many plastic bottles we recycled "circle the earth x amount of times", and those (few) items that say how they were made with 100% recyclable plastics.

Fast forward to now, and you learn about and hear stories of how expensive it is to actual make these things into new products, and how most of it ends up into trash, which then gets sold to other countries across the ocean to deal with :/

It's sad and it stinks.

I hear you. I was so proud to be a "Recycling Ranger" in elementary school. I had a little badge and everything.

WedgeX · Sep 11, 2020

Dreams-Visions said:
All of these problems have existed for decades, no matter what new recycling technology or expensive machinery has been developed. In all that time, less than 10 percent of plastic has ever been recycled. But the public has known little about these difficulties.

Fucking OOF. Also, I'd like to take a moment to stay that I love NPR with all my heart.

That's so depressing.

Curler · Sep 11, 2020

At this point, I figured the separate recycling trucks that come around are just "garbage truck no. 2" since they are all going to pretty much end up in the same place, anyways :/ (Exaggerating only a little bit...)

Messofanego · Sep 11, 2020

I had no idea the number was that low, but knew about the uselessness of recycling. Of course it was a front.

sphagnum · Sep 11, 2020

I am surprised that I didn't know this.

10%. What the hell.

Dreams-Visions · Sep 11, 2020

Messofanego said:
I had no idea the number was that low, but knew about the uselessness of recycling. Of course it was a front.

It's depressing how easily a populous can be duped by the invisible guiding hands of capitalism. How easy misinformation can spread. The article even sites environmentalists getting on board the train because they thought it would help. Little did they know they were doing Oil & Gas a huge favor for free. They were laughing all the way to the bank.

HaL64 · Sep 11, 2020

Reduce all use of plastic. It is difficult. Need big government to step in and set regulations and start supporting sustainable materials.
I haven't use plastic sandwich bags in months. It is still taking getting used to. Using silicon instead. It's not super cheap either.
There are lots of little people trying to sell this stuff. Not sure it's making a dent.

https://shopgreenergoodsmahomet.square.site/
https://wellearthgoods.com/

Elrid · Sep 11, 2020

Bullshit!!

Ashodin · Sep 11, 2020

This has basically left me feeling low. Recycling plastic isn't doing anything

HaL64 · Sep 11, 2020

It's still a good idea to not give up on recycling. Electric cars all also bullshit right now, but once we have low emission power grids setup it will be nice if everyone is used to electric cars by then too so we don't have to ramp people up. You could make the same argument about ramping people up on recycling... Sure they did it as a smokescreen, but if everyone is recycling and we actually get recycling going for reals then there is no ramp up period.

samoyed · Sep 11, 2020

The sooner people give up their delusions of bottom-up initiatives to addressing climate change the better off we'll be. It is only a question of whether we'll radicalize in time.

Nearly everything you've ever been taught about "responsible consumer behavior" has been part of a propaganda campaign by moneyed interests to preserve the economic status quo.

Messofanego · Sep 11, 2020

Dreams-Visions said:
It's depressing how easily a populous can be duped by the invisible guiding hands of capitalism. How easy misinformation can spread. The article even sites environmentalists getting on board the train because they thought it would help. Little did they know they were doing Oil & Gas a huge favor for free. They were laughing all the way to the bank.

Advertising/marketing is really the dark side of psychology, how to manipulate people into believing one lie and the other. These capitalist companies will often use psychologists for this kind of propaganda work.

Chikor · Sep 11, 2020

HaL64 said:
It's still a good idea to not give up on recycling. Electric cars all also bullshit right now, but once we have low emission power grids setup it will be nice if everyone is used to electric cars by then too so we don't have to ramp people up. You could make the same argument about ramping people up on recycling... Sure they did it as a smokescreen, but if everyone is recycling and we actually get recycling going for reals then there is no ramp up period.

Have you read the article?
There fundamental problem with plastic recycling and the idea that plastic can be reused is mostly fueled a bad faith ad campaign by oil companies.
I think we can and should stop making people separate and wash their plastic trash, and we should definitely stop exporting our plastic to poorer countries. And probably more than anything, we should stop lying to people about what recycling achieves.

Nobody is suggestion that we stop recycling aluminum or whatever.

p.s.
We should also ideally move away from cars, but that's a different discussion.

mbpm · Sep 11, 2020

Companies have been good at this whole narrative writing, damn.

The problems always come back to them.

MikeHattsu · Sep 11, 2020

Curler said:
Fast forward to now, and you learn about and hear stories of how expensive it is to actual make these things into new products, and how most of it ends up into trash, which then gets sold to other countries across the ocean to deal with :/

Since China won't take our trash any more organized crime are profiting now as well:

Criminal networks exploiting legitimate pollution management businesses: Interpol

The Strategic Analysis Report on emerging criminal trends in the global plastic waste market said difficulties in treating and monitoring the plastic waste surplus have opened doors for opportunistic crime

m.hindustantimes.com

Criminal networks are exploiting legitimate pollution management businesses to enrich themselves, an Interpol report has warned citing increased illegal shipments of plastic waste particularly since January 2018 when China implemented new import restrictions on 24 types of solid waste including plastic.

The Strategic Analysis Report on emerging criminal trends in the global plastic waste market since January 2018, which was released on Thursday, said difficulties in treating and monitoring the plastic waste surplus have opened doors for opportunistic crime in the plastic waste sector, both in terms of illegal trade and of illegal waste treatment.

The report referred to a case study in France, where the mayor of a small town was murdered for trying to prevent illegal waste dumping in his area. It added the case illustrates the stakes at hand and pointed to the kind of violence usually associated with organised crime.

It cited a link between crime networks and legitimate pollution management businesses and added they are used as a cover for illegal operations. The report said criminals often resort to financial crime and document forgery to carry out their global operations.

The study said that plastic waste containers have been piling up in South-East Asian ports and sometimes it is re-exported illegally to neighbouring areas.

Curler · Sep 11, 2020

MikeHattsu said:
Since China won't take our trash any more organized crime are profiting now as well:

Criminal networks exploiting legitimate pollution management businesses: Interpol

The Strategic Analysis Report on emerging criminal trends in the global plastic waste market said difficulties in treating and monitoring the plastic waste surplus have opened doors for opportunistic crime

m.hindustantimes.com

NO ONE wants it, and no one wants to spend the money to appropriately handle it. Time to just go ahead and shoot it to the moon? Maybe get some robots made to help sort it? Oh, wait...

steejee · Sep 11, 2020

We went to a town meeting with our city's recycling company and it basically boiled down to "Aluminum is still good, glass we're struggling to find buyers for but can keep it for ages (their last big buyer was a landfill using crushed glass to line a new area), the only plant that bought cardboard in new england has shut down and it's been piling up for over a year, most plastic ends up as garbage because it's mostly soiled and China won't take it so only a few types are good"

Our city has an interesting calculus on environmental impact because all our garbage is incinerated. So some things you'd think would be better to recycle is actually better to trash.

It's all so F'd. Companies need to be responsible for both ends of the product chain - put an impact tax on alllllll items, have it go specifically to recycling/proper disposal so we stop treating recyclable waste as something that needs to turn a profit.

Jebusman · Sep 11, 2020

Aluminum cans are vastly superior to plastic bottles for just about every beverage on earth, and if it weren't for the idea of wanting to reseal a drink that's been opened, I'd never look back.

It's also another reason why bottled water is such a racket. Charging people so much for fucking water, on top of how much of a fucking scourge plastic bottles are.

dabig2 · Sep 11, 2020

In a related but slightly more positive story, the city of Charleston, SC is suing big oil for their damages and lies over the decades.

City of Charleston Sues 24 Oil and Pipeline Firms 'Directly Responsible' for Chronic Floods

The city of Charleston, South Carolina filed a lawsuit against two dozen of the largest pipeline and oil conglomerates, saying the firms are responsible for making the floods that often hit the port city more frequent and more damaging.

earther.gizmodo.com

The city of Charleston, South Carolina filed a lawsuit against two dozen of the largest pipeline and oil conglomerates, saying the firms are responsible for making the floods that often hit the port city more frequent and more damaging.

Charleston, South Carolina's largest city, has experienced a rapid uptick in flooding—with the Charleston Harbor tide gauge exceeding seven feet (indicating a "nuisance" flood) 89 times in 2019 alone. In the 1960s, Charleston had only a few such floods a year, and more recently averaged around 40, according to the Post and Courier. More broadly, the South Carolina coast is expected to be radically reshaped in the coming decades by oceanic flooding that is could kill vegetation as well as fauna critical to the food chain across 400,000 acres of coastal marshes.

The suit claims the companies involved are "directly responsible for the substantial increase in all CO2 emissions between 1965 and the present" and "individually and collectively played leadership roles in denialist campaigns to misinform and confuse the public and obscure the role of Defendants' products in causing global warming and its associated impacts." It goes on to the environmental effects of climate change on the region:

The suit also lists "severe injuries" suffered by the city and its residents, such as destruction of city facilities, cost of flood mitigation projects, and decreased tourism:

According to the Post and Courier, Mayor John Tecklenburg announced the lawsuit in front of construction equipment and crews working on a separate project to raise the Low Battery Wall that currently protects against storm surge. "It's not fair for the citizens of Charleston to bear the burden of that cost," Tecklenburg told reporters. "If we don't act now, the future of our city is in jeopardy."

Charleston is asking for a trial by jury and compensatory damages, equitable relief, punitive damages, as disgorgement of profits to be determined at trial.

The fight still has to be fought, but this needs to be repeated in every city and honestly every country in the world, particularly those countries experiencing debilitating climate change today (Syria, Yemen, Haiti, Philippines, Iraq, India, and so many others that get zero play in the news).

We can't allow big oil and other arbiters of doom those immunity clauses they're seeking in this ongoing hostage crisis.

shoptroll · Sep 11, 2020

mbpm said:
Companies have been good at this whole narrative writing, damn.

The problems always come back to them.

We should've learned our lesson as a country after multiple lead debacles

Relix · Sep 11, 2020

So all the time I take to recycle is not worth it? About glass and paper?

Failburger · Sep 11, 2020

This is why I try to limit my plastic use as much as I can. Even stuff like the plastic baggies for produce, I just don't use (and I never get what's the point of those baggies anyways).

Tappin Brews · Sep 11, 2020

fucking shitty.

our poor children are going to pay dearly for our selfish, lavish, disposable lifestyle

SigmasonicX · Sep 11, 2020

Relix said:
So all the time I take to recycle is not worth it? About glass and paper?

This is just plastic. Glass and paper are better to recycle, though conditions can vary per region.

Curler · Sep 11, 2020

Failburger said:
This is why I try to limit my plastic use as much as I can. Even stuff like the plastic baggies for produce, I just don't use (and I never get what's the point of those baggies anyways).

Keeps your other stuff dry, if they just recently turned on those water sprays, helps keep stuff together to carry easier if you are bunch a bunch of one thing... It has its uses. Kind of like bags for meat, because I've had my share of meat juice leaking out of the bottom of the plastic... When I can if I use these, I try and reuse them for garbage bags (same thing with any grocery or take-out bag I get, especially now that they are piling up...)

julian · Sep 11, 2020

Relix said:
So all the time I take to recycle is not worth it? About glass and paper?

Keep recycling everything but plastic.

Mass_Pincup · Sep 11, 2020

Yet another reason for people to advocate for environmental policies aimed at companies instead of pushing the blame to people.

Even at a big scale, our individual efforts just aren't enough to change things.

kess · Sep 11, 2020

The industry hates bottle deposits. Bottle deposits lead to a cleaner environment and benefits the consumer who returns. Can't have that.

Lafazar · Sep 11, 2020

Plastic Recycling can work, even without bottle deposits. In Switzerland for example PET is pretty much the only plastic used for drinking bottles, and here the industry reaches PET recycling rates of 82%.

Of course the problem that additional energy is required to collect and process the empty bottles remains...

Deleted member 1086 · Sep 11, 2020

There was an Adam Ruins Everything episode on this a few years back

Kill3r7 · Sep 11, 2020

Of course is easy to fool the general public. We lack the time, desire and expertise to test credibility of what we are being told. Additionally, in this instance, recycling removes the guilt associated with using products stored in plastic containers.

Magni · Sep 11, 2020

Lafazar said:
Plastic Recycling can work, even without bottle deposits. In Switzerland for example PET is pretty much the only plastic used for drinking bottles, and here the industry reaches PET recycling rates of 82%.

Of course the problem that additional energy is required to collect and process the empty bottles remains...

I forget what the exact number is, but it's pretty low what you can get from a recycled PET bottle. It won't go through many cycles, compared to a glass bottle.

onpoint · Sep 11, 2020

I don't know why this has hit me so hard but i'm really angry about this in a unique way. Maybe it's because they lied for dozens of years and there's no fix. Fuck.

Akira86 · Sep 11, 2020

lol, so recycling was a big oil scam, hahahahahah

julian · Sep 11, 2020

onpoint said:
I don't know why this has hit me so hard but i'm really angry about this in a unique way. Maybe it's because they lied for dozens of years and there's no fix. Fuck.

It's as bad as cigarette makers paying doctors to say smoking is good for you. Have you ever seen old cigarette ads? They're....fucked up.

onpoint · Sep 11, 2020

julian said:
It's as bad as cigarette makers paying doctors to say smoking is good for you. Have you ever seen old cigarette ads? They're....fucked up.

Yeah it hits in a similar way. Thinking we were making a difference. While they just knew. I'm really pissed about this.

Possum Armada · Sep 11, 2020

Relix said:
So all the time I take to recycle is not worth it? About glass and paper?

My area stopped recycling glass a few years ago, and has been dumping plastic into the landfills for the last year. :(

julian · Sep 11, 2020

onpoint said:
Yeah it hits in a similar way. Thinking we were making a difference. While they just knew. I'm really pissed about this.

As you should be. They should never stop paying to fix this. Ugh. Now I'm remembering my "clean" diesel Jetta...

Kernel · Sep 11, 2020

Is big oil the scummiest industry on the planet?

Funding climate change denial and now this?

I think they've long overtaken the tobacco industry who used to deny smoking causes lung cancer.

Chikor · Sep 11, 2020

Kernel said:
Is big oil the scummiest industry on the planet?

Funding climate change denial and now this?

I think they've long overtaken the tobacco industry who used to deny smoking causes lung cancer.

I think it's them and the arms industry.
I suspect they end up killing more people though.

Famassu · Sep 11, 2020

I don't think this applies everywhere. Maybe US is this shitty with recycling bottles but I'm pretty sure recycled bottles in where I live actually do get reused to make new bottles & packaging & other stuff.

That's not to say we shouldn't do anything to lessen our plastic usage. But I don't think the situation is this grim everywhere.

Dizastah · Sep 11, 2020

The whole thing was a lie...
Humanity is a cancer.

NPR - How Big Oil Misled The Public Into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled (to sell more plastic)

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