IDontBeatGames

ThreadMarksman
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Oct 29, 2017
18,109
New York
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Article

New York, home of the largest rapid transit system in the country, will install surveillance cameras in every New York City subway car by 2025, Gov. Kathy Hochul announced Tuesday.

The move is aimed at increasing riders' confidence in subway safety, Hochul said, as ridership numbers are still lagging behind pre-pandemic levels. It also follows several highly publicized crimes that have occurred in the transit system, including the rape of a tourist on a subway platform this month; a mass shooting on a subway car in Brooklyn in April that left 10 passengers wounded; and the fatal shooting of a Goldman Sachs employee on a train in May.

But the decision to install cameras on subway cars worries some privacy advocates, who say it will increase the level of surveillance of New Yorkers without necessarily making the subway safer. Subway stations in the city already have surveillance cameras.

"It's awful. This just seems like a terrible surveillance PR stunt just to boost ridership," said Albert Fox Cahn, the founder and executive director of the Surveillance Technology Oversight Project (STOP), a nonprofit aimed at reigning in digital surveillance in New York.

"We have no idea how they would be sharing the data with federal and out-of-state partners," Fox Cahn said.

Subway car footage will be stored on a memory card on each camera, an MTA spokesperson said in an email, but will be available to any local, state or federal law enforcement agency for solving crimes. The MTA is still developing its procurement plan for which camera manufacturer it will use. In announcing the move, Hochul downplayed privacy concerns.

"You think Big Brother's watching you on the subways? You're absolutely right. That is our intent, to get the message out that we are going to be having surveillance of activities on the subway trains and that is going to give people great peace of mind," Hochul said. "And if you're concerned about this, the best answer is don't commit any crimes on the subways," she said. "Then you won't have any problems."

As transit surveillance cameras have become more common, some privacy advocates have raised concerns about who manufactures the cameras and stores the video, as well as which law enforcement agencies have access to it. Instead, Hochul framed the matter of cameras in subway cars as purely one of public safety and rider confidence.

"This is all about safety, the safety of our riders and letting would-be criminals know that should you harm any other passenger in any way, you will be observed, you'll be caught, and you'll be prosecuted," Hochul said.
 

Socivol

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,926
Pretty sure Chicago already has them in every car already. They are really useful to help with crime because the police will take screenshots and put them on the news. They don't really stop anything though as seen by the uptick in crime on the CTA.
 

DGenerator

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,922
Toronto, ON, Canada
In 2025? Is this another thing where I'm shocked Canada is far ahead of the curve (especially in Toronto) like with chips and NFC tapping years before arriving in the US?
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,346
How much footage can you fit on a memory card? Do they replace it at intervals or does it record over itself after a certain amount of time?
 
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IDontBeatGames

IDontBeatGames

ThreadMarksman
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,109
New York
Surprised this wasn't already a thing.

lol there weren't already cameras in the train cars? then yeah, this is overdue

What… there were no cameras before?

To all of you guys, yeah pretty much. We've been without cameras in the train system but they've been trying to actually overhaul the system as a whole slowly but surely. It's just taking a long ass fucking time because how many stations and lines there are.
 
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IDontBeatGames

IDontBeatGames

ThreadMarksman
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,109
New York
Tough to say if this is good or bad. We are trading privacy for safety.
"You think Big Brother's watching you on the subways? You're absolutely right. That is our intent, to get the message out that we are going to be having surveillance of activities on the subway trains and that is going to give people great peace of mind," Hochul said. "And if you're concerned about this, the best answer is don't commit any crimes on the subways," she said. "Then you won't have any problems."
 

TrubbleFrog

Member
Feb 23, 2018
968
This seems like a good thing? What expectation of privacy do you have while riding public transportation?

If it means fewer people getting harassed then let's goooooo
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,265
Good.

Now make sure they work, and make sure they can't be easily tampered with by the public - who *will* do anything they can to break them, block them or otherwise fuck with them for fun.

Every car, every platform, every turnstile should have cameras (and likely some of them already did). That said, surveillance, privacy, police state, etc.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,744
There is no right to privacy outside your own residence.

But it's not a private environment, a train care you're in public

Yes, well aware that there isn't an expectation of privacy in a public space. Yet it feels odd that our lives are constantly being tracked.

"You think Big Brother's watching you on the subways? You're absolutely right. That is our intent, to get the message out that we are going to be having surveillance of activities on the subway trains and that is going to give people great peace of mind," Hochul said. "And if you're concerned about this, the best answer is don't commit any crimes on the subways," she said. "Then you won't have any problems."

Sure and when this is used disproportionately to discriminate against minorities people will cry foul play but it will be too late by then.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Yep, this is much needed. I didn't pay attention these holidays if there were cameras in Paris sub cars.
 

Noisepurge

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,973
i think i´ve seen security cameras in every bus and subway in every other country for years already :D calling them SURVEILLANCE and fearmongering is not the angle here...
 

Pein

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,478
NYC
what they need is some security and police down there, within the past year my aunt and sister and cousin have been assaulted while riding the train.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,798
Hmmm

Cameras don't stop crimes, they help solve them afterwards. Not sure this will have the intended effect.
no one is going to be tracking you, random guy on the train :D feel free to leave the tinfoil at the station
Being under constant surveillance has detrimental mental health effects, and can cause developmental problems is children. This is especially seen in poorer children, who are under surveillance more often than more affluent ones.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,796
I would have peace of mind knowing that if I was accosted on the train, footage out there would exist to corroborate that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
29,341
Cameras are good for investigating crimes . Philly has had them for years on every bus, trolley and train, Wild shit still happens but you can catch the fools easier now.
 

giancarlo123x

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,258
Please no one spin this into a negative. I'm all for privacy but this is good to catch things in the future.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,913
Yes, well aware that there isn't an expectation of privacy in a public space. Yet it feels odd that our lives are constantly being tracked.



Sure and when this is used disproportionately to discriminate against minorities people will cry foul play but it will be too late by then.
A lack of evidence disproportionately discriminates against minorities, who are falsely found guilty of crimes they weren't involved in.

Justice is currently at the whims of white people who falsely say "yes, that looks like him!" when video evidence would say otherwise.
 
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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
22,364
This will help in collecting evidence of rabblerousers on subway trains. But it's not actually going to do anything about crime. So eh.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA

mojo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,993
They have cops in every station so they don't lose out on 2.75 but are just now putting cameras in the fucking subway cars.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,744
Have you consistently ridden a public train/subway before, especially at night? I've seen things you wouldn't believe.

I work in NYC and lived here for portions of my life. I haven't taken the subway late at night, outside of commuting back after Yankees games, since COVID. Although, I am well aware of the various horror stories from colleagues.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
"And if you're concerned about this, the best answer is don't commit any crimes on the subways," she said. "Then you won't have any problems."
The "nothing to hide" argument has always been absolutely terrible, but it's doubly terrible in a place where the NYPD operates. This is the same NYPD that operated a secret, unconstitutional spying program on NY Muslims, yes?

Here's a paper that STOP put out last year on the subject:

NYPD uses at least two FR vendors: DataWorks Plus, its main vendor, and Clearview AI, which
NYPD has used on an extended trial basis. NYPD has refused to share substantive information
about its FR systems, even declining to report the names of these vendors in its legally required
surveillance tool reporting. 40 However, documents shared with the Georgetown Law Center on
Privacy and Technology in 2016 show that DataWorks Plus supplies "a fully integrated facial
recognition solution for the New York City Police Department ... for over 2 million records and
12,000 web users." 41 Notwithstanding NYPD's seeming confidence in its vendor, DataWorks Plus
was embroiled in a FR-based misidentification scandal in 2020, with one of its managers
subsequently admitting to the press that DataWorks does not take a "scientific" approach to FR or
conduct accuracy and bias testing.
NYPD capitalizes on the lack of regulation around FR to cheat with the technology: officers exercise
"artistic license" with probe photos to improve their chances of making a match. In May 2019, the
Georgetown Law Center on Privacy and Technology documented the kinds of abuses that are
"common practice" at NYPD. 46 NYPD's "edits often go well beyond minor lighting adjustments and
color correction," the report states, "and often amount to fabricating completely new identity points
not present in the original photo." 47 In one infamous example of such abuse, NYPD used a photo of
the actor Woody Harrelson as a probe because the officers believed a suspect looked enough like the
actor.
I might have different feelings on this if the police were to be trusted. But they aren't. Maybe we shouldn't give them more cameras until they can at least honestly answer questions about what they're doing with the ones that they already have.
 
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jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,357
Like many others, I thought this was already a thing.

I live in D.C., and it's been a thing here for years. Buses too.
 
Jan 27, 2019
16,196
Fuck off
You should see the amount of cameras installed on buses and trains in the UK.

A standard single deck bus has about 8 cameras. 4 on the outside and 4 inside.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,129
What… there were no cameras before?
NYCs subway is incredibly convenient in getting you around the city quickly.

But everything else about it is old and busted as hell.

If you go on a subway in europe or Asia it feels like New York's shit is ancient and shitty in comparison.

I am not surprised that they did not have cameras. But they should for what people pay them. Hell they should have an officer on every train for what people pay monthly to use the train.