Spinluck

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
29,842
Chicago
Holy shit, the Switch really is gonna lap the PS2 record if Switch 2 is another year+ out.

It would've probably did it anyway if Switch 2 dropped in March. I just never saw that record being broken in a post PSWii60 world.

The wait will be brutal but I want them taking all the time they need to make this a successful transition. For them to sit on it this long shows their confidence in the Switch's library a year or so out as well as the current install base.

I am expecting hardly any 1st party droughts for the Switch 2 out the gate with how carefully they're handling it. When the Switch got going it felt like it never really stopped--- with development taking more time and costing more (not all of them and I am sure Nintendo will have various games with different budgets and graphical/processing demands), I wonder they are going to handle that this coming gen. This will be on of the most interesting gens for Nintendo.
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,209
There's just no way. To me that would be one of the biggest blunders imaginable if they actually waited until Holiday 2025. Just losing all of that momentum that the Switch had going for it if that were to happen.

Hell, it's already overdue even if it releases next March.

These posts are simply hilarious. This last quarter they only sold a few hundred thousand fewer hardware units than Sony. They are still projecting 13.5 million in the full year.

Fine if you want some new hardware but living in the fantasy land where the Switch is somehow a dead system is just factually wrong.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
35,343
These posts are simply hilarious. This last quarter they only sold a few hundred thousand fewer hardware units than Sony. They are still projecting 13.5 million in the full year.

Fine if you want some new hardware but living in the fantasy land where the Switch is somehow a dead system is just factually wrong.
When was the last major first party game to come out for Switch? They went an entire quarter without a major new release, you don't do that unless you either have pipeline issues or are already planning for a new console. Given Nintendo's history with the Switch, there's no reason to assume pipeline issues.
 

ostrichKing

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,655
There is not a chance it doesn't launch before summer next year. I would put a ton of money on it being sometime in the spring.
 

Rickyrozay2o9

Member
Dec 11, 2017
5,526
Why would they reveal in March but release it in November/December. I don't think any console in recent years had a reveal 8-9 months before release. I could be wrong though.
 

Squall5042

Member
Oct 25, 2017
983
I just don't buy the theory that "momentum" maters much at all here.

If the console comes out with a strong software line up, people will buy it, assuming the marketing isn't fumbled (ala WiiU).


they only said it would be announced this FY, they have given no indication of a release window.

Ohhh ok, gotcha, thanks
 

scamander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
568
When was the last major first party game to come out for Switch? They went an entire quarter without a major new release, you don't do that unless you either have pipeline issues or are already planning for a new console. Given Nintendo's history with the Switch, there's no reason to assume pipeline issues.

Dude, what are you smoking?

January 24: Another Code: Recollection
February 24: Mario vs. DK
March 24: Princess Peach Showtime
May 24: Endless Ocean: Luminous
May 24: Paper Mario: TTYD
June 24: Luigi's Mansion 2 HD
July 24: Nintendo World Championships: NES Edition
August 24: Emio - The Smiling Man: Famicom Detective Club
September 24: TLoZ: Echoes of Wisdom
October 24: Super Mario Party: Jamboree
November 24: Mario & Luigi: Brothership
 
OP
OP
Lant_War

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
24,216
Why would they reveal in March but release it in November/December. I don't think any console in recent years had a reveal 8-9 months before release. I could be wrong though.
Reveal can mean a lot of things. PS5 was "revealed" in april 2019 when we got some of the specs (SSD, RT, haptics too I think?), then they officially announced it as PS5 in January 2020, then they revealed the specs in Feb 2020 and finally the design and games in June 2020.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
14,201
With the economy being so weird right now I legit think not even Nintendo knows when to launch it next year. I can only imagine how they'd feel if a recession started soon after they revealed and started marketing the Switch 2
 

doemaaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,107
I'm the dumbass that thought the successor was coming out 2 years ago, back in 2022. What's an extra year at this point?
 

milkyway

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 17, 2018
3,130
Gee holiday 2025 seems awfully late when the Switch's sales are finally notably shrinking and the last major first party release was, what, SMB Wonder in October 2023? Also please don't do that Nintendo lol.
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,209
When was the last major first party game to come out for Switch? They went an entire quarter without a major new release, you don't do that unless you either have pipeline issues or are already planning for a new console. Given Nintendo's history with the Switch, there's no reason to assume pipeline issues.

I don't really get that line of reasoning. There are lots of reasons for one particular quarter lacking a certain scale of new release. I don't think it has anything to do with release timing of their next console. Also what's a major title? They've had lots of quarters throughout the lifespan of the console where there were only smaller releases - similar to this last quarter. It's not unusual. Especially so in Q1. 2018, 2020, 2021 were all filled with similar scoped titles in that quarter. And they have major titles on the way for the busier quarters.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
35,343
Dude, what are you smoking?

January 24: Another Code: Recollection
February 24: Mario vs. DK
March 24: Princess Peach Showtime
May 24: Endless Ocean: Luminous
May 24: Paper Mario: TTYD
June 24: Luigi's Mansion 2 HD
July 24: Nintendo World Championships: NES Edition
August 24: Emio - The Smiling Man: Famicom Detective Club
September 24: TLoZ: Echoes of Wisdom
October 24: Super Mario Party: Jamboree
November 24: Mario & Luigi: Brothership
Outside of Peach it's been all remakes and remasters so far this year. We've got a couple of new titles coming up, but I don't know how you can look at that lineup and not call it light.
 

scamander

Member
Oct 27, 2017
568
Outside of Peach it's been all remakes and remasters so far this year. We've got a couple of new titles coming up, but I don't know how you can look at that lineup and not call it light.

There is also Endless Ocean: Luminous, which is a new game as well and in the latter half of the year are literally only new games scheduled. But all that doesn't even matter, since Nintendo manages to release at least 11 games this year (there'll probably one or two surprises more), almost every month one game. I don't see how they are slowing down, only because you don't perceive the games as being major enough (which is highly subjective).
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
18,082
No fucking way

This is already a dead year, and they're gonna make us wait AN ENTIRE YEAR for this shit to end? Literally insane
A "dead year" with a new Zelda game and a sequel to the enormously popular Super Mario Party? Something tells me Nintendo probably doesn't think of this as a dead year.

Next year they have Pokémon Legends and Metroid Prime and who knows what else. That's not a dead year either.

It's wild how an eight year life cycle (which seems like it's going to be the new normal for Sony, too) is cool and normal, but an eight and a half year life cycle to better position the console for the holiday shopping season is "literally insane."
 

ostrichKing

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,655
Dude, what are you smoking?

January 24: Another Code: Recollection
February 24: Mario vs. DK
March 24: Princess Peach Showtime
May 24: Endless Ocean: Luminous
May 24: Paper Mario: TTYD
June 24: Luigi's Mansion 2 HD
July 24: Nintendo World Championships: NES Edition
August 24: Emio - The Smiling Man: Famicom Detective Club
September 24: TLoZ: Echoes of Wisdom
October 24: Super Mario Party: Jamboree
November 24: Mario & Luigi: Brothership
This isn't making the case…mostly remakes or tier 2 (while still amazing looking) titles.
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,209
Outside of Peach it's been all remakes and remasters so far this year. We've got a couple of new titles coming up, but I don't know how you can look at that lineup and not call it light.

Again, this is just another example of personal bias simply ignoring the facts. Go back and refresh your mind of the previous 7 years of the Switch. This year isn't vastly different in terms of scope / sales potential from their line up. Your own software preferences are biasing your opinion and perception.

And 2025 already has two major Switch 1 titles penciled in with MP5 and Pokemon Legends Z/A arguably making it a potentially stronger year than this. So how does that fit into your theory?

Again, I get people wanting a new system but people trying to make out like Nintendo are floundering and the Switch is on its last legs are just denying reality at this point
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
18,082
Outside of Peach it's been all remakes and remasters so far this year. We've got a couple of new titles coming up, but I don't know how you can look at that lineup and not call it light.
Light compared to what, exactly? Other first-party line-ups from other console vendors? Because, uh…

There's no question that we're in the end stages of the Switch's life and the new console is happening next year. The titles Nintendo is releasing now are more "supporting roles" than sales stars, filling out the console's line-up and adding variety and depth to their offerings. But I don't really see any evidence in the games they're releasing that, like, the Switch 2 has to be in March and can't possibly be in September, or whatever.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,086
switch feels like it's finally running out of steam to me and the release schedule makes it feel like new stuff is currently being held
so id be shocked if they didnt plan to release the next console until over a year from now
im still expecting early next year
 

Wrench

account pending deletion
Member
Jan 19, 2022
1,961
443
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
19,849
A "dead year" with a new Zelda game and a sequel to the enormously popular Super Mario Party? Something tells me Nintendo probably doesn't think of this as a dead year.
An anemic line-up padded out by tons of remakes and small games for most of the year is what I'd call a dead year. The third installment of Mario Party on the same console doesnt help.

Pokemon and Metroid are a good start for next year, but not enough if the next hardware actually were to drop Holiday 2025. I'm so tired of waiting for all the big titles that will come once we get the next console
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,209
switch feels like it's finally running out of steam to me and the release schedule makes it feel like new stuff is currently being held
so id be shocked if they didnt plan to release the next console until over a year from now
im still expecting early next year

It's still on track to sell 13.5 million this year. Software sales are still strong and the line up is comparable with other slower years. Profitability is still strong. Seems like it's still doing pretty well for year 8.

I don't think the difference between launching the next system in March or Nov is going to be particularly catastrophic for them. If anything it would simply mean that MP5 / Pokemon Legends are not the cross gen titles that presumably everyone who is expecting a March Switch 2 release thinks they are.
 

New Donker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,512
Sometimes I get bummed out at the thought of a holiday 2025 release for a Switch 2…and then my logical brain kicks in. New video games could stop releasing for the next few years, and I'd have plenty of entertainment in my current collection (Between the Switch and the PS5). Having lived through the N64, GameCube, Wii and Wii U droughts, this is nothing.
 

Pop-O-Matic

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,412
Let me repost this yet again:

Decided to do a bit of research (read: skimmed Wikipedia) on this and other Nintendo systems to give a bit of perspective on this and the potential timetable for the succ's launch after it finally gets announced.

Note that I'm considering the "reveal" for each system to be the first time system+controller+software were shown publicly, since the reveals of some of these systems were super piecemeal and staggered.

Nintendo Switch
NX announcement: March 2015
www.eurogamer.net

Nintendo NX is "new hardware with a brand new concept"

UPDATE: Here's Iwata's quote on the NX, translated officially by Nintendo: Also, Iwata said Nintendo's new membership s…
Switch reveal: October 2016 (1 year, 7 months after announcement.)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
Worldwide launch: March 2017 (2 years after announcement. 5 months after reveal.)

Consoles

Super Nintendo
Annoucement: September 1987
Reveal: November 1988 (1 year, 2 months after announcement.)
JP launch: November 1990 (3 years, 2 months after announcement. 2 years after reveal.)

Nintendo 64
Project Reality announcement: August 1993
N64 reveal: November 1995 (2 years, 3 months after announcement.)
books.google.com

Popular Mechanics

Popular Mechanics inspires, instructs and influences readers to help them master the modern world. Whether it’s practical DIY home-improvement tips, gadgets and digital technology, information on the newest cars or the latest breakthroughs in science -- PM is the ultimate guide to our high-tech...
JP launch: June 1996 (2 years, 10 months afer announcement. 6 months afer reveal.)

Gamecube
Dolphin announcement: May 1999

Nintendo Press Conference Transcript - IGN

After a brief introduction by Nintendo's Executive Vice President of…
Gamecube reveal: August 2000 (1 year, 3 months after announcement.)
www.gamespot.com

Nintendo's GameCube Unveiled

TOKYO - Nintendo has officially announced the name of its next-generation console. First details inside.
JP launch: September 2001 (2 years, 4 months after announcement. 1 year, 1 month after reveal.)

Wii
Revolution announcement: May 2004
www.ign.com

Profile: Satoru Iwata - IGN

We take a look at the man behind the company in this in-depth feature about Nintendo's president.
Controller reveal: September 2005 (1 year, 4 months after announcement.)
www.gamasutra.com

news

news
NA launch: November 2006 (2 years, 6 months after announcement. 1 year, 2 months after reveal)

Wii U
Wii successor announcement: April 2011
kotaku.com

Nintendo Confirms Wii Successor. It's On Sale In 2012.

Today in Japan, Nintendo confirmed the upcoming release of the Wii's successor. The still-unnamed console will be revealed at this year's E3 gaming expo in Los Angeles in June.
Wii U reveal: June 2011 (2 months after announcement)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
NA launch: November 2012 (1 year, 7 months after announcement. 1 year, 5 months after reveal)

Handhelds

Game Boy Color
Announcement: March 1998
JP launch: October 1998 (7 months after announcement)

Game Boy Advance
Announcement: September 1999

pocket.ign.com: It's Official: The Next Generation Game Boy

Gaming news from Pocket.IGN.com
Reveal: August 2000 (11 months after announcement)

pocket.ign.com: Game Boy Advance: It's Finally Unveiled

At long last, the public has been shown Nintendo's next-generation handheld.
JP launch: March 2001 (1 year, 6 months after announcement. 7 months after reveal).

Nintendo DS
Announcement: November 2003
ds.ign.com

Nintendo Going Back to the Basics - IGN

Early Thursday morning Nintendo confirmed that it had posted a loss for the beginning half of the fiscal year, the first time ever in the company's history. It also said it would develop a new game product which would not be the successor to GameCube or Game Boy Advance for release in 2004, but...
Reveal: May 2004 (6 months after announcement)
NA launch: November 2004 (1 year after announcement. 6 months after reveal.)

Nintendo DSi
Announcement/reveal: October 2008
JP release: November 2008 (1 month after announcement)

Nintendo 3DS
Announcement: March 2010
Reveal: June 2010 (3 months after announcement)
JP launch: Feburary 2011 (11 months after announcement. 8 months after reveal.)

New 3DS
Announcement/reveal: August 2014

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
JP release: October 2014 (2 months after announcement)

If we treat the announcement that the Switch 2 is being worked on back in May as the "Announcement", then a November 2025 release would still make it the fastest turnaround on a home system Nintendo's ever had.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
They're revealing it this FY, and even if they waited the very last minute to do it, it would at most release in like August or September, they wouldn't gain much by force releasing it in November. I think it's more likely they'll show it this year, have a blowout early next year, and release around March/April/May.
 

Remark

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
Would be crazy for Holiday 2025 unless they had some Switch content for Summer 2025.

I still believe announcement this fall with release Spring 2025. According to rumors, the hardware is ready it's just getting the software lineup together.
 

Zeal543

Next Level Seer
Member
May 15, 2020
6,264
A "dead year" with a new Zelda game and a sequel to the enormously popular Super Mario Party? Something tells me Nintendo probably doesn't think of this as a dead year.

Next year they have Pokémon Legends and Metroid Prime and who knows what else. That's not a dead year either.

It's wild how an eight year life cycle (which seems like it's going to be the new normal for Sony, too) is cool and normal, but an eight and a half year life cycle to better position the console for the holiday shopping season is "literally insane."
Sony releases more powerful models mid gen, nevermind the base already being a lot stronger than nintendo's

Y'all survived the original game boy line (No GBC is not a dedicated new console, sorry) for a decade back in the day. Y'all will be okay.

Nintendo was releasing new hardware aside from GB at that time
 
Jun 10, 2018
9,417
Let me repost this yet again:

Decided to do a bit of research (read: skimmed Wikipedia) on this and other Nintendo systems to give a bit of perspective on this and the potential timetable for the succ's launch after it finally gets announced.

Note that I'm considering the "reveal" for each system to be the first time system+controller+software were shown publicly, since the reveals of some of these systems were super piecemeal and staggered.

Nintendo Switch
NX announcement: March 2015
www.eurogamer.net

Nintendo NX is "new hardware with a brand new concept"

UPDATE: Here's Iwata's quote on the NX, translated officially by Nintendo: Also, Iwata said Nintendo's new membership s…
Switch reveal: October 2016 (1 year, 7 months after announcement.)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
Worldwide launch: March 2017 (2 years after announcement. 5 months after reveal.)

Consoles

Super Nintendo
Annoucement: September 1987
Reveal: November 1988 (1 year, 2 months after announcement.)
JP launch: November 1990 (3 years, 2 months after announcement. 2 years after reveal.)

Nintendo 64
Project Reality announcement: August 1993
N64 reveal: November 1995 (2 years, 3 months after announcement.)
books.google.com

Popular Mechanics

Popular Mechanics inspires, instructs and influences readers to help them master the modern world. Whether it’s practical DIY home-improvement tips, gadgets and digital technology, information on the newest cars or the latest breakthroughs in science -- PM is the ultimate guide to our high-tech...
JP launch: June 1996 (2 years, 10 months afer announcement. 6 months afer reveal.)

Gamecube
Dolphin announcement: May 1999

Nintendo Press Conference Transcript - IGN

After a brief introduction by Nintendo's Executive Vice President of…
Gamecube reveal: August 2000 (1 year, 3 months after announcement.)
www.gamespot.com

Nintendo's GameCube Unveiled

TOKYO - Nintendo has officially announced the name of its next-generation console. First details inside.
JP launch: September 2001 (2 years, 4 months after announcement. 1 year, 1 month after reveal.)

Wii
Revolution announcement: May 2004
www.ign.com

Profile: Satoru Iwata - IGN

We take a look at the man behind the company in this in-depth feature about Nintendo's president.
Controller reveal: September 2005 (1 year, 4 months after announcement.)
www.gamasutra.com

news

news
NA launch: November 2006 (2 years, 6 months after announcement. 1 year, 2 months after reveal)

Wii U
Wii successor announcement: April 2011
kotaku.com

Nintendo Confirms Wii Successor. It's On Sale In 2012.

Today in Japan, Nintendo confirmed the upcoming release of the Wii's successor. The still-unnamed console will be revealed at this year's E3 gaming expo in Los Angeles in June.
Wii U reveal: June 2011 (2 months after announcement)

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
NA launch: November 2012 (1 year, 7 months after announcement. 1 year, 5 months after reveal)

Handhelds

Game Boy Color
Announcement: March 1998
JP launch: October 1998 (7 months after announcement)

Game Boy Advance
Announcement: September 1999

pocket.ign.com: It's Official: The Next Generation Game Boy

Gaming news from Pocket.IGN.com
Reveal: August 2000 (11 months after announcement)

pocket.ign.com: Game Boy Advance: It's Finally Unveiled

At long last, the public has been shown Nintendo's next-generation handheld.
JP launch: March 2001 (1 year, 6 months after announcement. 7 months after reveal).

Nintendo DS
Announcement: November 2003
ds.ign.com

Nintendo Going Back to the Basics - IGN

Early Thursday morning Nintendo confirmed that it had posted a loss for the beginning half of the fiscal year, the first time ever in the company's history. It also said it would develop a new game product which would not be the successor to GameCube or Game Boy Advance for release in 2004, but...
Reveal: May 2004 (6 months after announcement)
NA launch: November 2004 (1 year after announcement. 6 months after reveal.)

Nintendo DSi
Announcement/reveal: October 2008
JP release: November 2008 (1 month after announcement)

Nintendo 3DS
Announcement: March 2010
Reveal: June 2010 (3 months after announcement)
JP launch: Feburary 2011 (11 months after announcement. 8 months after reveal.)

New 3DS
Announcement/reveal: August 2014

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
JP release: October 2014 (2 months after announcement)

If we treat the announcement that the Switch 2 is being worked on back in May as the "Announcement", then a November 2025 release would still make it the fastest turnaround on a home system Nintendo's ever had.
Why did you include the handheld history just to summarily ignore it?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,406
Toronto, Canada
Sony releases a PS5 Pro console we all don't need before Nintendo releases a sequel to an almost 10 year old device that we REALLY do need.

This sounds so crazy, that imma go ahead and say it's definitely what's gonna go down, cuz Nintendo gonna Nintendo.
 

skyappl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
303
What if the gimmick or switch is gone and it's just a handheld?
I get it's a joke, but I really enjoy switching between TV and handheld mode so easily.

Also just want to provide an update now that the thread has been updated to clarify this was only speculation—I'd still be fine with a holiday 2025 release haha
 

Elven_Star

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,318
Holiday 2025 is perfectly fine. There are tons of great games you can play on Switch right now. But if you want 4K60 or w/e, guess you're out of luck.
 

doemaaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,107
Sony releases a PS5 Pro console we all don't need before Nintendo releases a sequel to an almost 10 year old device that we REALLY do need.

This sounds so crazy, that imma go ahead and say it's definitely what's gonna go down, cuz Nintendo gonna Nintendo.
You gotta be careful when you say stuff like that because somebody will sniff out comments like this and say, "No? We don't NEED a Switch successor. Look at their output in the last year. TotK, SM Wonder, Pikmin 4… They're doing just fine. Nintendo don't need to follow the usual rules."

Yada yada yada… Same shit, over and over again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,406
Toronto, Canada
You gotta be careful when you say stuff like that because somebody will sniff out comments like this and say, "No? We don't NEED a Switch successor. Look at their output in the last year. TotK, SM Wonder, Pikmin 4… They're doing just fine. Nintendo don't need to follow the usual rules."

Yada yada yada… Same shit, over and over again.
Developers being able to put games out in the way they have with all the limitations of the system has been nothing short of amazing. I still play my Switch after all these years and have games I'm looking forward to. Realistically, we don't need anything besides food, some drink and a place to sleep lol. But to pretend the system isn't struggling, specially with the third party titles in modern day, is a bit silly. It's been amazing how long this little device has been running for, but it's time we move on lol.
 

NukeRunner

Member
Feb 8, 2024
1,178
You gotta be careful when you say stuff like that because somebody will sniff out comments like this and say, "No? We don't NEED a Switch successor. Look at their output in the last year. TotK, SM Wonder, Pikmin 4… They're doing just fine. Nintendo don't need to follow the usual rules."

Yada yada yada… Same shit, over and over again.

The moment it's clear that the Switch successor is not as strong as the PS5 (which will be immediate) people will begin telling us it's under powered and screaming for a pro system. It didn't even take 2 years for annoying tech obsessed people to start pushing that this must happen, we must have a Switch Pro or else.

The system then went on to likely become the highest selling console in history. We didn't need a successor that far back and one could argue the only reason we do now, is because Nintendo won't release anymore of its heavy hitter series until a successor is out.

Anyone looking towards Nintendo to release a portable that is on par spec wise with 500 dollar consoles is going to continue this insufferable narrative. After 8 years, the system is starting to feel a bit too dated in contrast to modern systems yes, but considering the leap from PS4 to PS5 has been a bit limp as far as generational leaps go, people may need to get over the hunger for new hardware and accept things aren't going to progress like they used to. Budgets and scope are going to be the limiting factor for games from here on, unless you want to start using AI to replace human cost to make our super pretty huge games anyways.

Of course there is nuance to be had here, but I would say the worst thing that came from the Switch fandom was that we had Pro and successor rumors almost as long as the system was alive, and despite that it didn't happen for this long, I expect people to do it again.