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LL_Decitrig

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Oct 27, 2017
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I really struggle to think about how you can jail someone over being "Grossly Offensive", when feelings takes over courts, I think we have a pretty big problem.

It's not as if this phrasing were novel. Grossly offensive behaviour is routinely criminalised in many jurisdictions.

"Gas the Jews" is a phrase directly referring to genocide, so it's wrong to assume it's about hurting somebody's feelings. There are some ideas that are abhorrent, never again to be countenanced. Not because of somebody's feelings, but because we remember what happened last time such ideas became fashionable and hip to joke about.
 

Deleted member 888

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It's not as if this phrasing were novel. "Gas the Jews" is a phrase directly referring to genocide, so it's wrong to assume it's about hurting somebody's feelings. There are some ideas that are abhorrent, never again to be countenanced. Not because of somebody's feelings, but because we remember what happened last time such ideas became fashionable and hip to joke about.

An individual liberty or right to tell offensive jokes about tragic events in history isn't immunity from being criticised, lambasted, boycotted, banned from private services or even fired from your work. Didn't Larry David take a battering for a holocaust joke last year? He certainly wasn't arrested [but yes, I know, he's in America, not the UK].

The difference between facing consequences and actually having the state arrest you is the crux of this debate. When does or should being offensive [when there isn't genuine incitement/personal targetting] turn into being arrested?

That is essentially why some comedians jump on board this case, and it's again not necessarily a personal endorsement of Markus Meechan as a person. It is to be involved in the debate of when is it okay or should it be okay for the state to arrest you for being offensive? Or grossly offensive as the charge is.

Meechan's video didn't target anyone specifically, didn't ID anyone and as flimsy as you want to say it is, he did say at the start of the video the purpose of the video was humour/joke and to piss off his girlfriend by turning the dog into something disgusting. That pushes the video to the fringes when it comes to context and intent, which the court is saying you don't decide, we do. The whole thing has multiple layers to debate.
 

LL_Decitrig

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The difference between facing consequences and actually having the state arrest you is the crux of this debate. When does or should being offensive turn into being arrested?

It's a debate we've been having in the UK for at least half a century now. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think "gas the Jews" is well over the line of being grossly offensive.
 

Branu

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Feb 7, 2018
1,029
This thread is a shitshow. Audioboxer is being very thorough in his explanations and i feel like people are purposefully ignoring what he is saying.

.

Thread's a shitshow because many people disagree with his take on this idiot's conviction? One can be thorough in their rationalization and still wrong.
 

Deleted member 888

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It's a debate we've been having in the UK for at least half a century now. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think "gas the Jews" is well over the line of being grossly offensive.

If it is that trigger line specifically, what happens if a standup comedian uses it in a set? Does that (or should it) warrant an arrest simply because the specific words "gas the Jews" are uttered? Irrespective of any context given by said comedian?

I think saying "gas the Jews" is grossly offensive, but I'm not convinced the Government should be arresting things that are grossly offensive unless there is clearer intent that the purpose was to rile up hatred, target someone specifically or something a bit clearer in purpose than this video. Which really was an asshole trying to be edgy like many assholes try to be using the internet.
 
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Deleted member 888

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A tattoo a failed Soviet state is more distasteful than mocking the death of 6 million Jews? Really?

He's also got a Half-Life tattoo, so Gabe has some answering to do

ZGJ6NfC.png


The guy used to be a communist by his own admittance, but that is completely irrelevant to the Nazi pug video. It probably serves more as an indicator the guy's brain is a shitshow.

Someone probably will point out this however

Some historians attempt to make separate estimates for different periods of the Soviet history, with casualties for the Stalinist period varying from 8 to 61 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union
 

Deleted member 9317

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To add a little context to this thread, here's his response when this video went viral.

http://genjutsu-01.tumblr.com/post/143436926723/an-explanation-of-what-actually-happened-the


The Reason I Joke About Such Things

The comedy my friends and I have is very, very dark and takes a lot of inspiration from 4chan, dank webms and other such formats. We joke about some horrendous things, but that is just the humour that is related to the group. In our group we joke about racism, terrible events of the world and other such things that would be considered taboo, despite this, we still acknowledge that the things we joke about are terrible. The holocaust was an awful thing, and should never have happened, but, we still joke about it, because in our eyes laughing about terrible things often make them easier to deal with.

I personally laugh when I am given terrible news, I laugh when I get into trouble with bosses at work, I even started laughing when a girlfriend dumped me, it's my automatic response which very, very often (especially with bosses) gets me in a lot of trouble. Whether that is the way me and my friends deal with how awful the world is or whether or not we are being arseholes, I couldn't give you a definite answer, I can't actually pinpoint exactly why laughter is my response to terrible things, I wish I had an answer for you, but I don't.
 

Alice

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Nov 2, 2017
5,867
I'm not an expert on German politics. I know enough to understand that the AfD is a blight on society but do they have any actual sway on policy? I thought the nature of coalitions in German government generally prevented those fringe parties from affecting much. Last time I checked Germany still had some fairly strict hate speech laws and isn't steadily regressing on almost every single front. Apologies if I am wrong of course...

Trump is in the most powerful position in the government. His ability to do things like select SC justices (and if we don't impeach/arrest his corrupt ass he may get to choose multiple) allows him to indirectly influence policy for decades. And that's just one example...

They're a laughing stock, no one's taking them seriously, and they have no sway in any policy because the entire government is opposing them, even the right wing.

Saying the AfD is worse than Trump is completely ignorant.
 

M1chl

Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,054
Czech Republic
That isn't all it is though, it is promoting a terrible ideology and making light of genocide. It is a threat to the entire world and can't be allowed to proliferate. This is a British guy, the Nazis literally wreaked havoc bombing them, like there's still people alive who went through it, it isn't some joking thing.

Yeah and I am Czech Guy, we suffer greatly under Nazi Regime (Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia), but at least we killed Reinhard Heydrich, so at least something... And we don't have some shithead like Winston Churchill, so I am not sure what you are implying, it's not like UK is innocent (well in grand scheme of the history, UK is pretty shitty country). So not sure what you implying here...

M1chl thank you for taking your time responding to my late night rant. I get your point, I really do.
Well, I am glad we can agree on something. But I want to just pointed out, that not everyone living in USA and here is 15:19 aka 3:19pm. So I am not really ranting in the late night : )

It's not as if this phrasing were novel. Grossly offensive behaviour is routinely criminalised in many jurisdictions.

"Gas the Jews" is a phrase directly referring to genocide, so it's wrong to assume it's about hurting somebody's feelings. There are some ideas that are abhorrent, never again to be countenanced. Not because of somebody's feelings, but because we remember what happened last time such ideas became fashionable and hip to joke about.

Well I would agree with this point, if the intent of the video would be to actually "gas the jews". But as far as I am aware, he first first words was to "teach his dog, the least cute thing he can think off", which shows the intent of the video to be edgy as fuck, for sure, but I don't think that he done any hate crime. I think the words needs context and intent and I think that context and intent is overlooked in here.

A tattoo a failed Soviet state is more distasteful than mocking the death of 6 million Jews? Really?

Communism is very much alive and well in the world sadly and it killed far more people than Hitler could ever dream off (not one man necessarily, but whole regime all over the globe). But still as far as I know Stalin and Mao Zedong killed each more people than Hitler. Not specific group of people, but that does not make it any less horrible. And let say, should I pointed out, that it was for me more distasteful, because my family suffered greatly under that regime. It's not like I am saying the Nazis were better, not at all... I am probably from one of those countries which suffered both regimes. Just Nazis were done pretty fast, but USSR lasted for a long time.

And again it's not like only Jews suffered casualties under Nazi regime, sure they are biggest single group, but the hatred went further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims (but this has nothing to do with the video, just as an information)
 

Deleted member 11995

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Here's my take. I think jail time is a step too far. We can't run around locking people up just for saying some nasty shit. That's crazy.

But anything up to that? Go nuts. Kick him off YouTube. Delete his account and ban him from creating another. Charge him. Drag his ass to the court. Fine him. I'm struggling to locate any of my fucks to give.
 

Spuck-

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Nov 7, 2017
996
Here's my take. I think jail time is a step too far. We can't run around locking people up just for saying some nasty shit. That's crazy.

But anything up to that? Go nuts. Kick him off YouTube. Delete his account and ban him from creating another. Charge him. Drag his ass to the court. Fine him. I'm struggling to locate any of my fucks to give.

Talk your MP then, the breach of the communications act he was done for has been around for 15 years.
 

Paul

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Oct 27, 2017
2,603
Tom Walker is absolutely on point. I hope that judge sees the video, not that I expect him to change his mind, that would be too idealistic.
 

nillansan

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Oct 25, 2017
1,520
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Sure. Note that the narrative appears to be that 2017 is significantly worse than 2016 (or at least what I am saying is the narrative. If that's not the narrative, then the data is what the data is) in terms of white supremacy.

Thanks for going through the trouble of breaking down the numbers, appreciated. I thought that you were alluding to a new trend occurring outside of white supremacist groups that somehow undermines some of the points raised in the thread. To me it was unclear what narrative you were specifically referring to.
 

Deleted member 888

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Tom Walker is absolutely on point. I hope that judge sees the video, not that I expect him to change his mind, that would be too idealistic.

The character received international coverage after the 2016 US election, when his report on Donald Trump's victory went viral,[8] becoming a YouTube trending video. Some media outlets, including PJ Media, did not recognise Jonathan Pie as a fictitious character, presenting him instead as a real-life, professional "British lefty reporter".[9]


LMAO

professional "British lefty reporter"
 

Volimar

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Oct 25, 2017
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So I've been seeing around social media that he's apparently taken up the cause and seems to consider himself on the front lines of what he calls overreaching laws on hate speech. He seems to have quite a bit of support in the UK, though these days perception isn't very easy to trust.
 

excelsiorlef

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Oct 25, 2017
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So I've been seeing around social media that he's apparently taken up the cause and seems to consider himself on the front lines of what he calls overreaching laws on hate speech. He seems to have quite a bit of support in the UK, though these essays perception isn't very easy to trust.

Weird that the focus is hate speech because hate speech laws were not used here.
 

Deleted member 888

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So I've been seeing around social media that he's apparently taken up the cause and seems to consider himself on the front lines of what he calls overreaching laws on hate speech. He seems to have quite a bit of support in the UK, though these essays perception isn't very easy to trust.

Of course, an egotistical douchebag sees himself as a martyr, but the video above does state in a humorous way why it can be a bi-partisan issue even if Tommy fucking Robinson is swirling the drain.
 

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It's official: jokes can now land you in prison. Markus Meechan – known on YouTube as Count Dankula – has been found guilty in a Scottish court of law for the crime of hate speech and breaching the electronic communications act. His arrest followed a viral online video in which Meechan can be seen encouraging his girlfriend's pug to give a Nazi salute and to respond enthusiastically to the phrase 'gas the Jews'. His sentence will be passed at Airdrie Sheriff Court on 23 April.

The intention behind the video is unambiguously comedic; the very concept of a Nazi pug could hardly be interpreted otherwise. This has not stopped Sheriff Derek O'Carroll, the judge presiding over this case, from finding Meechan guilty and declaring that 'the description of the video as humorous is no magic wand'. Without wishing to resort to stereotypes, I can think of no one less qualified to assess the merits of comedy than the Scottish judiciary.

The notion that free speech is not under threat in this country is no longer a sustainable claim. Meechan may not be the first to be prosecuted for offensive jokes, but his case sets a particularly dangerous precedent by which even professional comedians might be criminalised for their material. This kind of gradual authoritarianism has already emerged in Canada, where comedian Mike Ward was fined $42,000 by the Quebec Human Rights Tribunal for telling a joke about a disabled boy. The seemingly unstoppable rise of offence culture, largely fuelled by social media, means that the UK is unlikely to be far behind.

That Meechan's case made it to court in the first place is sufficient to raise serious questions about the credibility of the Procurator Fiscal Service in Scotland. The case appears to rest on the assumption that Meechan's video was an attempt to incite religious hatred. During the trial, it was described as 'an odious criminal act that was dressed up to look like a joke'. Even if you don't consider the video itself to be funny, surely the concept of attempting to inflame anti-Semitism through the medium of pugs is inherently laughable.

An important aspect of the prosecution's strategy was outlined by Meechan himself in a statement after the verdict. For the Nazi pug video to be deemed both threatening and offensive, it was essential that the judge disregard the principles of context and intent. In other words, the joke had to be wilfully misunderstood in order to justify the conviction. Accordingly, the prosecutor described the 'inclusion of the dog' as 'an attempt to muddy the waters around [Meechan] making, producing and posting the video. He says that he knows the context of the video, but in a criminal court in Scotland he does not decide the context of anything, the court decides the context.' It's astounding that such a farcical trial could produce such sinister pronouncements.

Meechan's guilty verdict is a fittingly absurd conclusion to an already absurd case. In the two years since he uploaded his video, this trial has gained little in the way of media attention. Public support for his ordeal has been scant, possibly out of a fear of association with some of the prominent right-wing figures who have defended Meechan's right to free speech. However, this is a case that must surely transcend political differences. Even those of us who find the video distasteful should rally behind its creator, because if we allow the state to abuse its power in this way, to determine what we can and cannot joke about, we can no longer lay claim to be living in a free society.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/fee-count-dankula/21238
 

Cybit

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Oct 25, 2017
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Thanks for going through the trouble of breaking down the numbers, appreciated. I thought that you were alluding to a new trend occurring outside of white supremacist groups that somehow undermines some of the points raised in the thread. To me it was unclear what narrative you were specifically referring to.

No problem. The data can be interpreted in many ways, some more intellectually honest than others (a sign behind my desk is "if you interrogate the data long enough, you can get it to confess to anything"). I'm not fluent enough in the qualitative knowledge to try to make causal relationships out of correlations - hence why I would defer to other groups about that. Plus, it's worth trying to remind folks that groups aren't singularly hate focused - a group can be anti-semitic and anti-black and anti-government - and that can lead to weird effects where one group feels extremely targeted by virtue of a host of various groups that have that one group in common all simultaneously rise. Things like that are important to understanding context and keeping perspective. It is easy to only look at the last 4 months (especially considering how crazy the news cycle is) and think it's a long-term thing going on, because it feels like forever.
 

Deleted member 888

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Stuff like this is slightly humorous



And then there is the trans related slur



Remember everyone, your twitter history will be trawled through. It's not to say Nick can't have an opinion on the Markus Meechan case and Ricky Gervais commenting on it, but remember the speech rights that allowed you to post what you do on your twitter account without being arrested.

But to make this circular instead of just invoking twitter-drama, citizens do have to question what will the police arrest for under the label of "grossly offensive" and what will they allow UK citizens to post on the likes of Twitter and YT without arresting? You can go back to asking why wasn't PDP arrested, but Count Dankula (such a cringey avatar name) was?

The Scottish courts do have some devolved powers over the English courts, so I guess one could say it was Scotland deciding to mobilize the police to arrest for this, whilst England didn't send anyone to knock on PDP's door.
 

Deleted member 888

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Apparently the judge stated they had to outright ignore the context of the video to charge him.

Not that they ignored the defendants claim of context, but that they said in a court in Scotland the court decides the context

Accordingly, the prosecutor described the 'inclusion of the dog' as 'an attempt to muddy the waters around [Meechan] making, producing and posting the video. He says that he knows the context of the video, but in a criminal court in Scotland he does not decide the context of anything, the court decides the context.'

The reason that riles people up is lots of comedy is subjective. This is a seriously offensive video, but people can laugh at different things and it doesn't necessarily mean if someone, in context, laughs at an offensive joke, they are instantly a bigot or a piece of shit. The courts have basically said that depending on the judge you have in the chair, because there was no jury here, that judge's subjective opinion on comedic context is all that matters, end of. It doesn't actually matter what you intended.
 

Deleted member 888

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Not a reputable website. They're essentially professional contrarians. I think the modern term is "edgelords."

I gathered the site was a bit of a riot, but that single article is fine, and the guy that wrote it is apparently the co-writer for Jonathan Pie, which is a video featured above.

For something slightly different, but related to Governments judging/criminalizing satire/humour, this video is brilliant

 
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LL_Decitrig

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The Scottish courts do have some devolved powers over the English courts, so I guess one could say it was Scotland deciding to mobilize the police to arrest for this, whilst England didn't send anyone to knock on PDP's door.

Yes, Scottish courts have been devolved since the Union was created over 300 years ago. Even before the recent devolved government the laws of Scotland are separate, with many bills in Westminster creating law for England and Wales which was then duplicated, with appropriate adaptations, in Scotland by a UK government department known as the Scottish Office. The Scottish Office was abolished in 1999 when the Scottish Parliament took over its powers.

I believe under the Scottish legal system it's the Procurator Fiscal who decides on criminal prosecutions. In England and Wales prosecutions are brought by the Crown Prosecution Service.
 

Djkhaled

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Oct 28, 2017
557
eh. he wouldn't have been found guilty of this in america.

if that's how the country chooses to interpret i'll accept it.

arrested over a dumb youtube video.
the true irony is now that he has a criminal record it will be hard for him to get a visa to leave the country to somewhere that might tolerate his black comedy more, and he's stuck in the country he's in.

edit: edited post because of merge
No one in their right mind would want to leave the UK to live in America and have no cheap healthcare or decent social security.
 

DrFurbs

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Dec 16, 2017
41
Perfect response by Johnson Pie. Makes a mockery of the judge.

Ps, what's wrong with being offended?
 

Ravensmash

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Oct 25, 2017
8,797
Dunno if I agree about legal action but based on his twitter I have zero pity or care for his case.

Well it'd be interesting to see if this case acts as a precedent, with more convictions coming through the courts.

And that won't necessarily be a person you disagree with - but the same law would be applied .

My biggest concern is with the judge saying that the court will decide the context/that its irrelevant.

As the satirical video above says - if you ignore context then even reporting on the case 'could' be in breach of the law.
 

Deleted member 888

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Well it'd be interesting to see if this case acts as a precedent, with more convictions coming through the courts.

And that won't necessarily be a person you disagree with - but the same law would be applied .

My biggest concern is with the judge saying that the court will decide the context/that its irrelevant.

As the satirical video above says - if you ignore context then even reporting on the case 'could' be in breach of the law.

It's unlikely universally liked, or even well liked people will be the kinds of people that test the limits/lines here. It's not as if any decent bastard from this forum is going to be the kind of person getting arrested. Or I doubt it. It's more likely to be someone who acts like an arse in public, whereas most of us probably have jobs we value and don't spend any time uploading bollocks onto YouTube. Because we don't want our friends, family, work colleagues and the wider public to think we are cunts.

Unless a Government goes totally authoritarian and brings in blasphemy laws and anti-dissent laws around said Government being criticised, the average person is not going to be the person making the news for a "grossly offensive" charge.

That being said you probably can pluck some people from here https://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Communications_Act_2003/Section_127 that were arrested and didn't go viral like this with a 3 million+ YouTube video, that might be far more decent people than Markus Meechan. Until you trawl someones public social media accounts, you don't always really know how much of a prick they might be.

But the reason many of those speaking out about this who are famous or semi-famous are highlighting it's not necessarily about liking or even agreeing with 99% of what Meechan says/does, is because that is how freedom of speech/expression is ultimately defended in fringe cases. Potentially speaking out about cases around people you don't actually like. The majority of the public will find this incredibly challenging to do, because they don't want to be associated with Meechan, or have accusations they are defending/supporting Meechan.

I don't particularly think the majority of people, especially some of the larger famous people who've spoken up here, have visited Meechans twitter account and thought, yeah, this dude is some real class gentleman. If he had just been fired from his job, girlfriend had left him, parents disowned him and he went viral, I doubt some of the names you see speaking up would be anywhere near this. It's because the Scottish Government/police have convicted and charged him, pending sentence, for the video. It's not really a question about if you like Markus Meechan, it's about whether you think the Scottish Courts stating context is decided by them, and this video is both a chargeable offence and something for the UK to block UK citizens being able to see, is an appropriate Government use of legislative/legal power.
 
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shan780

The Fallen
Nov 2, 2017
2,566
UK
I'd like to see a big news channel like sky or BBC pick this up

I watched the video when it first went viral, and just the idea of the guy that made it going to jail is incomprehensible to me. it seems to me that it's an attack on free speech and sets a pretty dangerous precedent.

Ricky Gervais has been quite vocal about this on twitter. I've been watching his most recent stand up, and he says things in it that could be considered way more offensive than this. I don't even know where the line is anymore