Mace Windu is the secret villain of the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy

[Schlorgan]

So I've been thinking about Mace Windu's actions in the Star Wars prequel trilogy (especially in ROTS). They don't make a lot of sense. I eventually came up with the only conclusion that makes sense: he was either a colossal idiot or…… he was working with Palpatine.

Think about it.

Through most of Revenge of the Sith almost all of Windu's interactions with Anakin serve two purposes: get him closer to Palpatine and get him to resent the Jedi.

First, he denies him a promotion and humiliates him, then convinces the Jedi Council that it's a good idea to send the emotionally unstable young Jedi that is already close with Palpatine to spy on him for the Council while simultaneously furthering his resentment of the Jedi.

Then, when the time is right, he makes sure that all of the most powerful Jedi Masters are off planet so when Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, he has to come to Windu. Windu of course shows no surprise when told that Palpatine is a Sith (because he already knew).

Windu then decides to confront the Chancellor, but not during the day with people around to be witnesses and not with a group of powerful Jedi. He takes a group of jobbers that immediate get killed.

Him and Palpatine put on a convincing fake fight until Anakin shows up. Mace loses his hand and gets thrown out the window.

But does he die, or was that part of the plan? Did he organize all of this with Palpatine beforehand and have someone waiting outside to pick him up?

Yoda realizes that his right hand man was one of the architects of this plan and he never realized it despite even Windu himself giving Yoda and the other Jedi all of the clues they needed to put it together.

This is why Yoda goes into exile. He is ashamed that all of this happened under his nose and puts most of the blame on himself.

So what do you think?

 

[MadLaughter]

After listening to A More Civilized Age, I think the Jedi were just catastrophically incompetent. Not in battle, but in how they utterly failed Anakin Skywalker.

 

[AuthenticM]

He wanted to put aside the rule of law for one moment for the greater good of the galaxy by killing Palpatine. He couldn't have been all that bad, because he was right in that moment. If he had gotten his way, he would have saved the Republic and billions of lives.

 

[Yerffej]

After listening to A More Civilized Age, I think the Jedi were just catastrophically incompetent.

Click to shrink...

Yeah. Some mixture of that and resting on their laurels for way too long. Windu was just an asshole.

 

[SpottieO]

Why would you promote the clearly unstable (you admit it yourself) Anakin to Jedi Master?

 

[Khanimus]

...No. He's just another asshole jedi too arrogant about his organization's failings, and too emotionally hostile to a kid (chosen one or not) who just left behind his mother to indentured servitude.

 

[Sephzilla]

The destruction of the Jedi Order being an inside job would have been a lot more interesting than the Jedi just being completely incompotent

 

[Haloid1177]

I think you're full of shit but it's a Wednesday so what else is there to do.

 

[Post Reply]

Occam's Razor -> The Jedi are colossal idiots

 

[The Silver]

The other jedi are actually meant to be some of the strongest swordsmen of the order.

You just can't Cleave the Sheev.

 

[Khanimus]

The destruction of the Jedi Order being an inside job would have been a lot more interesting than the Jedi just being completely incompotent

Click to shrink...

I dunno... It seems perfectly fair and realistic to depict the instrument of so-called accountability and protection within a governmental body as being ineffectual self-righteous assholes, rather than being like "oh no the Jedi could've totally gotten the job done if not for one bad actor on the inside!"

 

[Patitoloco]

Occam's Razor -> The Jedi are colossal idiots

Click to shrink...

Yep, there is not more than that.

 

[UnpopularBlargh]

The destruction of the Jedi Order being an inside job would have been a lot more interesting than the Jedi just being completely incompotent

Click to shrink...

Nah. Them being arrogant and incompetent makes a lot more sense.

 

[The Adder]

Windu then decides to confront the Chancellor, but not during the day with people around to be witnesses and not with a group of powerful Jedi. He takes a group of jobbers that immediate get killed.

Click to shrink...

Those are all Jedi Masters he's with and he hinself is the most powerful Jedi on the council in terms of saber to saber combat.

 

[thewienke]

The destruction of the Jedi Order being an inside job would have been a lot more interesting than the Jedi just being completely incompotent

Click to shrink...

Also like a million times more logical and would completely make sense in-universe.

The way they did it made the Jedi look shockingly braindead stupid and trying to reduce that to "darkside clouding everything", "secret sith temple", and "jedi arrogance" feels like poorly written explanations after the fact.

 

[Schlorgan]

Also like a million times more logical and would completely make sense in-universe.

The way they did it made the Jedi look shockingly braindead stupid and trying to reduce that to "darkside clouding everything", "secret sith temple", and "jedi arrogance" feels like poorly written explanations after the fact.

Click to shrink...

If you're going to come up with an explanation after the fact to make sense of the bad writing, come up with an interesting one.

 

[Cross-Section]

He's a total asshole to Ahsoka too

 

[TheKeipatzy]

Subjects like this make me wish the shatter point the story was a little bit more explored mind you I'm still getting into it myself a few videos on the topic but it's one of those things that I think if people knew about the shatter point ability and Mace's ability and background, it would make clear a few things.

I think that's the problem with the prequels in general...

 

[Khanimus]

Why would you promote the clearly unstable (you admit it yourself) Anakin to Jedi Master?

Click to shrink...

Maybe Anakin's instability is more due to the Jedi's detached, condescending teachings thoroughly failed him over the last 15 years or something...

"Oh you're having vivid dreams about your mother's suffering and death? Eh, you'll get over it."

Yeah, definitely alot of healthy emotional support within the Jedi order...

 

[anexanhume]

Jedi are modeled after Buddhist monks, but their moral failings mirror another rigid religious population - the clergy.

 

[The Silver]

Also like a million times more logical and would completely make sense in-universe.

The way they did it made the Jedi look shockingly braindead stupid and trying to reduce that to "darkside clouding everything", "secret sith temple", and "jedi arrogance" feels like poorly written explanations after the fact.

Click to shrink...

Idk how y'all saying this type of stuff after seeing the last couple of years. Yes people and institutions are in fact that goddamn stupid.

 

[KingM]

Powerful organizations running themselves into the ground based on arrogance is pretty believable. The Jedi were just too out of touch. Look at the last, uhhh, entire history of human politics and religion.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

After listening to A More Civilized Age, I think the Jedi were just catastrophically incompetent. Not in battle, but in how they utterly failed Anakin Skywalker.

Click to shrink...

It really bums me out that Luke didn't tear them a new one in TLJ. He had his three lessons for Rey and it seemed like a good time to eviscerate the Jedi, but he didn't do a great job of it.

Powerful organizations running themselves into the ground based on arrogance is pretty believable. The Jedi were just too out of touch. Look at the last, uhhh, entire history of human politics and religion.

Click to shrink...

Agreed

 

[onyx]

The Jedi thought the Sith were dead. You know, just like how many people kept declaring the Republican party was dead/dying back in 2009/10

The Jedi got arrogant and lazy enough to play themselves. Luke Skywalker laid it all out in TLJ:

Luke Skywalker: Lesson two. Now that they're extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if your strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris.

Luke Skywalker: At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi Master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader.

 

[Fj0823]

Watch The Clone Wars and realize,he was just that much of an asshole

 

[Schlorgan]

Maybe Anakin's instability is more due to the Jedi's detached, condescending teachings thoroughly failed him over the last 15 years or something...

"Oh you're having vivid dreams about your mother's suffering and death? Eh, you'll get over it."

Yeah, definitely alot of healthy emotional support within the Jedi order...

Click to shrink...

I'm saying, what if that was intentional on Windu's part to push him away from the Jedi and make him more receptive to seduction by Palpatine?

 

[Outrun]

After listening to A More Civilized Age, I think the Jedi were just catastrophically incompetent. Not in battle, but in how they utterly failed Anakin Skywalker.

Click to shrink...

They failed him completely and utterly.

I feel like he had reached out for help a few times, and all he got was the standard love leads to X - Y - Z - Suffering nonsense.

 

[El Bombastico]

It really bums me out that Luke didn't tear them a new one in TLJ. He had his three lessons for Rey and it seemed like a good time to eviscerate the Jedi, but he didn't do a great job of it.

Click to shrink...

I thought he did? It was like 2 seconds, but didn't he basically say it was the Jedi's own fault for allowing Sheev to destroy them?

 

[Unicorn]

The destruction of the Jedi Order being an inside job would have been a lot more interesting than the Jedi just being completely incompotent

Click to shrink...

And this is why conspiracy theories are so potent...

 

[rras1994]

No the secret villain in prequel era was the senate and people who slept walked a democracy becoming a fascist dictatorship- the Jedi were like a 1000 people, yes they made mistakes but they were not the people that had actual political power in this situation. Palpatine being Sith doesn't actually change much, he didn't gain power through being a Sith but being a politician that played groups against each other to dismantle any checks and balances in their political system and give more and more power for him. If anything the Jedi were one of the few groups that actually called Palpatine out on this - it was too late just like with Padme's group of politicians but they did try. And they paid for trying. It was not the inaction of the Jedi that caused it, if they were there or not, Palpatine would still have succeeded. And I'm not saying that the Jedi did not make many mistakes here but I feel like people oversimplify the downfall of the Republic to simply Sith vs Jedi when that wasn't the main reasons for the fall

 

[Khanimus]

It really bums me out that Luke didn't tear them a new one in TLJ. He had his three lessons for Rey and it seemed like a good time to eviscerate the Jedi, but he didn't do a great job of it.

Click to shrink...

He kinda does...

"at the height of their power, they let Darth Sidious rise to power" etc.

Also shouts down Rey, saying that a Jedi's presumed "claim" to the power of the force is bullshit vanity.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I thought he did? It was like 2 seconds, but didn't he basically say it was the Jedi's own fault for allowing Sheev to destroy them?

Click to shrink...

He did, but he kind of breezed over it high-level. I know we can't have a movie with just Luke rambling for 20 minutes, but his arguments didn't get very deep and felt weak. It could've been stronger in my opinion.

 

[ProtomanNeo]

The entire Jedi order.
That was one of the brilliant things I enjoyed about the Prequels. It's driven home later in the Clone Wars as well but the idea that the Jedi got what was coming to them is pretty cool, and subverted the expectations of the audience in an amazing way.

 

[thewienke]

Idk how y'all saying this type of stuff after seeing the last couple of years. Yes people and institutions are in fact that goddamn stupid.

Click to shrink...

Yoda isn't exactly Donald Trump

He's a guy that can basically read people and thoughts and sense death halfway across the galaxy. Like okay - so Palpatine is using the dark side to cloak himself and yadda yadda. Which should be weird by itself - like you go to read the chancellor of the entire Republic that you're clearly suspicious of and you can't read shit. Red flag maybe?

How about his numerous lackies who were in on it? What about the Kamino cloners who were in on it? Do they all have bullshit Palpatine force cloaks or whatever?

 

[SneerfulOwl]

Jedi are arrogant, naive fools. From the periods of the old republic to the clone wars, there are so many cases of former frustrated jedis turning against jedi teaching just because of their arrogance and stubborn to do anything until things get worse.

 

[PBalfredo]

The Jedi council is arrogant and stagnant, and Mace in particular is severe, dogmatic, and utterly lacks compassion. He's basically all the worst aspects of the failing order all personified in one man.

 

[Fat4all]

the jedi were fucking dunces

 

[Walter White Walker]

He's a dumbass like the rest of the Jedi.

 

[AnythingElse]

Nah, the secret villain of the prequel trilogy is Darth Jar Jar.

 

[Schlorgan]

I know the actual reason is

Spoiler

that Lucas realized he was out of time and needed to put Anakin into the suit by the end of the movie so all of the characters had to make some conveniently stupid decisions to get there.

But this is more fun

 

[Deleted member 13798]

All of the Jedi were fucking stupid. Even Yoda. Palpy "clouding their minds" was a convenient hand wave to explain why everyone was acting like a dumbass. Then again, there's also a subtle and brilliant jab- probably both intentional and accidental, at how committees and councils can become so stuck in their ancient ways and beliefs that they refuse to see anything outside of their echo chamber, no matter how obvious. The fall of the order actually makes sense, it's just not executed all that well in the films.

Also Qui-Gon had to die in the first movie otherwise he would've picked up on the bullshit right away when Palpatine was given complete control. He was kind of a dumbass too, but was sort of right about Anakin overall, he just severely misinterpreted the trajectory (or maybe he didn't, maybe he knew) he would take to fulfill the prophecy or whatever.

 

[HamSandwich]

Count Dooku: What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith?

The Jedi: I wonder who that could be?

 

[Mr. Poolman]

As it was explained on KotOR 2, to the average guy in the Star Wars universe, there is no difference between a Jedi or a Sith, they are a bunch of thugs with lightsabers.

 

[Praetorpwj]

Counterpoint: Everyone in Star Wars is colossally stupid except Palpatine and he only gets by relying on everyone else being a dummy.

 

[Yukari]

You know somehow i think galaxy will more fuck up if windu suscessful kill sidious and take over the republic.

 

[The Silver]

Yoda isn't exactly Donald Trump

He's a guy that can basically read people and thoughts and sense death halfway across the galaxy. Like okay - so Palpatine is using the dark side to cloak himself and yadda yadda. Which should be weird by itself - like you go to read the chancellor of the entire Republic that you're clearly suspicious of and you can't read shit. Red flag maybe?

How about his numerous lackies who were in on it? What about the Kamino cloners who were in on it? Do they all have bullshit Palpatine force cloaks or whatever?

Click to shrink...

bro we as a species couldn't get it together even through a once in a lifetime pandemic, forget just Trump.


They can't read minds willy nilly like that and it's a common occurrence that their mind tricks just don't work on many aliens or strong willed people and the jedi don't think anything of it because of how common it is. They can more easily sense very strong emotions and extrapolate from that. Like Yoda knew Anakin was raging in AoTC during his sand people massacre but he had no clue what exactly it was about, he couldn't read his mind.

Or look at someone like Cad Bane, it took Anakin, Windu, and Obi Wan holding him captive and mind torturing him to try and pry something and they still failed to force him to talk or learn anything. He just couldn't take the pain anymore and talked on his own.

The Kamonians just mostly chilled on their planet and did their job, there was never any big explosion of fear or anything like that from them to make them suspicious. They didn't even know Dooku was Tyranus and all that. They just took a contract they thought was from a jedi and viewed Order 66 as some weird shit for a jedi to ask for but money is money.

 

[TheGamingNewsGuy]

You know somehow i think galaxy will more fuck up if windu suscessful kill sidious and take over the republic.

Click to shrink...

Plus Palpatine probalby had a backup plan in case he was killed

 

[Aly]

The destruction of the Jedi Order being an inside job would have been a lot more interesting than the Jedi just being completely incompotent

Click to shrink...

Nah their fall is pretty realistic imo.

 

[VAD]

He's a total asshole to Ahsoka too

Click to shrink...

Windu's actual crime. I get that being a sick to Anakin was somewhat justified (but one could argue that was what pushed him to the dark side) but Ahsoka ? Come on Mace don't be an idiot.

 

[Sayuz]

The destruction of the Jedi Order being an inside job would have been a lot more interesting than the Jedi just being completely incompotent

Click to shrink...

It kind of is, if you consider the Jedi to be an extension of the Republic, and no a separate entity. Which is what they had become by the time of the prequels.

If you look at it like that, with Palpatine systematically dismantling them (along with all other democratic institutions), and the Jedi just sitting on their hands and allowing it to happen until its too late, then I'd argue that it is an inside job. Even if it's one sided by incompetence and stagnation.

As for Mace Windu himself, he pretty much represents every wrong with the Jedi order of that time from the top down. Yes, technically he wants to do good. But he has a very rigid view of what that is, and how it must be done. Yoda is just as misguided, but the key difference being that he is capable of learning and changing. Likewise, while both characters believe in non-attachment, Yoda is still capable of great compassion, which Mace never shows.

In the end, Mace only ever further manages to push Anakin further into Palpatine's clutches due to his inability, for whatever reason, to see him as a person instead of a problem. Which, of course, isn't to say he's entirely wrong about Anakin. But the way he goes about dealing with him is the worst possible way to handle the situation.

He kinda does...

"at the height of their power, they let Darth Sidious rise to power" etc.

Also shouts down Rey, saying that a Jedi's presumed "claim" to the power of the force is bullshit vanity.

Click to shrink...

Interestingly, Dooku held the same view, according to the old EU. He felt that the Jedi had become entitled, to the force, and felt as if they alone owned it and was theirs to do with as they pleased. Or "the Jedi believed the force was theirs alone to use and honor", as he summed it up at one point, while reflecting to himself.

He also felt that the Jedi had fallen so far that the galaxy no longer thought of them as heroes, but more like bullies or worse mobsters. Which, whether or not he himself viewed them that way, he felt that it was his job to end the Order, something he found to be regretful. He wished the Order could simply have faded away, and died out on their own, rather than requiring extermination.

But the interesting thing is how this point of view parallel's Luke's own feelings on the Jedi as an institution by the time of TLJ. While neither one of them are shown to be completely right, the fact that they both came to the independent conclusions about the Jedi Order becoming so corrupt it would be better if they were to simply vanish shows that there's probably something to it.

Which, yeah, it's pretty obvious if nothing else the Jedi had become arrogant. Even Yoda says as much in Episode II. Maybe saying the order should end because of that is extreme, but there's something to it.

But anyway, is Mace Windu the secret villain of the prequels? He sort of is in the same way Peggy Hill is the secret villain of King of the Hill. Both characters are unable to see their own flaws, and their actions end up causing more harm than good, but neither one had bad intentions. So it's hard to classify then as real villains on account of that.

How about his numerous lackies who were in on it? What about the Kamino cloners who were in on it? Do they all have bullshit Palpatine force cloaks or whatever?

Click to shrink...

There's a whole story line in The Clone Wars about the Jedi learning more about the Clones, and (kind of) learning about Order 66, and another story a bit later on where they learn Dooku was the one who ordered the army, so the series does go into these kinds of things.

But basically, the Kaminoans only knew so much. All they knew was they were hired by a man named Tyrannus, and they weren't even aware that this was Dooku. Even what bits of knowledge Dooku allowed them to have, such as about the intention behind Order 66 weren't completely truthful. And the Kaminoans were also very guarded in general.

But yeah, Sidious was never directly involved in any of that, so it would have been hard to trace it back to him from what bits and pieces the Jedi did know.