• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,098
I feel that it's worth remembering in all of this that many, many Americans in the film industry have lost their careers, or at the very least individual big jobs like this, over the last couple of decades because people in places like New Zealand essentially scabbed and sold their labor to these studios for, as John Callen says in the video, half price.
 
OP
OP
aerie

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,035
I feel that it's worth remembering in all of this that many, many Americans in the film industry have lost their careers, or at the very least individual big jobs like this, over the last couple of decades because people in places like New Zealand essentially scabbed and sold their labor to these studios for, as John Callen says in the video, half price.

It is worth noting, and a rather crummy thing with how it came to be.
 
Last edited:

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
I was kinda bored after about 10 minutes. Spending the majority of the video explaining a labor dispute was probably not the greatest choice. This is the Phantom Menace of video essays. You probably could have gotten the point across in just a few minutes, and if you're not really going to explicitly look at what the law did to wages then I don't get the point of an extended look.

The ending feels either incredibly contrived or incredibly naive. It really took you nearly half your life to learn that the entertainment industry is quite ruthless? You never heard about the countless recording artists that record labels screwed over? You weren't paying attention during the very Writer's Guild Strike that you lived through? It was only 10 years ago. You haven't noted the male-female pay disparity across acting? This is very much an industry centered around getting bang for their buck, and they will maximize profits in very nearly any way it is legal to do so. I don't understand how or why that is a surprise to someone well into their 30's.

Ellis is 34 years old yet she acts like LOTR films were from from some winsome long-lost childhood....she would have been 20 when Return of the King came out. A fair amount of the conclusion annoyingly echoes Star Wars prequel talk - "Oh the poor quality of these followups now ruins my enjoyment of the old films". I'd certainly have liked for all the films to have been better, but you're really holding onto your anger and regret too much if the plodding Hobbit films hurt your estimation of LOTR.

1. LOTR did profoundly change her life by inspiring her to go into film, so it's disingenuous to say she isn't allowed nostalgia because she was an adult when she saw them. She said "see them like children" not "see them like when I was a child."

2. She started this project off by saying that she was disillusioned by The Hobbit and the behind-the-scenes studio ruthlessness, and the whole trip to New Zealand, and by extension this project, was framed as an attempt to look past that and find the magic she had in watching LOTR again. Turns out she uncovered even more ruthless stuff that we here in the states weren't as exposed to. Needless to say that this wasn't a sudden realization but a somber reaffirmation that one can never really go back.

3. Most of the time spent covering the subject was with the people with insider knowledge on the New Zealand film industry and the people involved in the actual scandal. If you think cutting their voices out of the video in favor of a "few minutes" of recap because she didn't go into a minute examination of how specifically wages were affected then you're missing something here. Also, she spotlighted the fact that The Hobbit Law removed these actor's ability to collectively bargain, which is just as damaging and worthy of condemnation and thus examination than lost wages, because it removes a mechanism from fighting back against corporate greed and exploitation. Given my own reaction to this news and the reaction of many other posters here that time spent covering the subject was time well spent.
 
Last edited:

Ogni-XR21

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,390
Germany
While we are on the topic of media consumption and greedy cooperations exploiting the people making that media...

Who here is planning on getting Red Dead Redemption 2 on day 1?

I'm totally guilty of this too, just food for thought.
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
Didnt knew all that

Warner made all that and the Hobbit trilogy sux.

I didnt liked before, now its a trash movie for me
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,018
Wow. I need to come back tonthis video when I'm in a healthier state of mind. That is some dark and depressing shit.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,331
I wonder how much difference Warner made. New Line Cinema, at the point of LotR, were in a completely different situation, in dire need of a huge hit, and they took a huge gamble for it. I would guess that it affected how they worked, if nothing else being a little bit more humble. In contrast, Warner is the place that gave us Shadows of Mordor. They only moved in once it was proven that there was money to be made.

It's also another disturbing example how huge companies get away with anything just by dangling job opportunities in front of local governments and basically not having to pay anything, lest they bring their business elsewhere. When companies dictate countries' laws, we're in that dystopian cyberpunk future.

Oh.

Anyway, great job Lindsay!
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Her bit about the consumption of media ethically is just so spot on and current. It's an issue we've all seen with the MeToo movement and others. How can you consume media knowing the context around it is awful?

This has been a great series and possibly one of the best things I've seen on Youtube.

The bit about consumption is the perfect answer to Bill Mahers shit opinion about it



While it definitely sucks not being able to view media through the uncomplicated lens of childhood once you get older I do find "learning that the creator is piece of shit" does a good job of significantly cutting down on my media backlog.

I think us millenials are falling into the Leave it to Beaver trap of nostalgia. Some millenials want to go back to the simpler times when they didn't have to hear about racism or sexism or diversity while the rest of us want to push ourselves and others forward and face the difficult task of acknowledging the fucked up shit in past and current media.

Basically some people don't want to think too hard.
 

Eldy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,192
Maryland
This stuff was reported among Tolkien fan blogs and the like as it happened and the angry anti-union response from a lot of fans was really disheartening. But I went and saw all three movies (mainly due to emotional investment in the series/fan community; I didn't think any of them were particularly good) so... :/

I wonder how much difference Warner made. New Line Cinema, at the point of LotR, were in a completely different situation, in dire need of a huge hit, and they took a huge gamble for it. I would guess that it affected how they worked, if nothing else being a little bit more humble. In contrast, Warner is the place that gave us Shadows of Mordor. They only moved in once it was proven that there was money to be made.

New Line tried to screw over everyone too. They got sued not only by the Tolkien Estate but also Peter Jackson and a number of New Zealand actors. One of the reasons The Hobbit was delayed was because the New Line execs swore they would never work with PJ again after he sued them.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Great video series, but this third one is REALLY great. Shed a lot of light onto things I've never even heard about.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
Damn. Really eye-opening, especially the last part about re-evaluating our relationship with media.
iZpnz6Z.gif


Super quick and dirty, i'll do a cleaner one later.
I see this gif getting a lot of use.
 

Curufinwe

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,924
DE
User Warned: Inflammatory Drive-by
I was kinda bored after about 10 minutes. Spending the majority of the video explaining a labor dispute was probably not the greatest choice. This is the Phantom Menace of video essays. You probably could have gotten the point across in just a few minutes, and if you're not really going to explicitly look at what the law did to wages then I don't get the point of an extended look.

The ending feels either incredibly contrived or incredibly naive. It really took you nearly half your life to learn that the entertainment industry is quite ruthless? You never heard about the countless recording artists that record labels screwed over? You weren't paying attention during the very Writer's Guild Strike that you lived through? It was only 10 years ago. You haven't noted the male-female pay disparity across acting? This is very much an industry centered around getting bang for their buck, and they will maximize profits in very nearly any way it is legal to do so. I don't understand how or why that is a surprise to someone well into their 30's.

Ellis is 34 years old yet she acts like LOTR films were from from some winsome long-lost childhood....she would have been 20 when Return of the King came out. A fair amount of the conclusion annoyingly echoes Star Wars prequel talk - "Oh the poor quality of these followups now ruins my enjoyment of the old films". I'd certainly have liked for all the films to have been better, but you're really holding onto your anger and regret too much if the plodding Hobbit films hurt your estimation of LOTR.

She'd be better off in therapy for her anger issues.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
A giant corporation strong-arming a small country into changing its laws to suit their desires. Welp, didn't see that one coming......
This was the most surprising part to me. I expect this kind of behaviour with third world countries, not freaking New Zealand. I guess even the first world has a third world.
I thought this video was good but too pessimistic.
Well, yeah. That's adulthood.
 
OP
OP
aerie

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,035
She'd be better off in therapy for her anger issues.
Is that really your take away, that shes angry? It seems pretty far from the Lindsey that I watched, I saw someone who was passionate about what she loved, and wanted to journey as far as she was capable of to discover if there was more behind The Hobbit trilogy than she initially saw - thats the crux of these videos, her passion, and why they are quite powerful, personal, almost biographic, and through that plenty of people will discover the very nature of not just the films but the intent of the studios and the strong-arming of a nation that happened behind them.

Brava Lindsey.
 
Last edited:

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,987
I was kinda bored after about 10 minutes. Spending the majority of the video explaining a labor dispute was probably not the greatest choice. This is the Phantom Menace of video essays. You probably could have gotten the point across in just a few minutes, and if you're not really going to explicitly look at what the law did to wages then I don't get the point of an extended look.

The ending feels either incredibly contrived or incredibly naive. It really took you nearly half your life to learn that the entertainment industry is quite ruthless? You never heard about the countless recording artists that record labels screwed over? You weren't paying attention during the very Writer's Guild Strike that you lived through? It was only 10 years ago. You haven't noted the male-female pay disparity across acting? This is very much an industry centered around getting bang for their buck, and they will maximize profits in very nearly any way it is legal to do so. I don't understand how or why that is a surprise to someone well into their 30's.

Ellis is 34 years old yet she acts like LOTR films were from from some winsome long-lost childhood....she would have been 20 when Return of the King came out. A fair amount of the conclusion annoyingly echoes Star Wars prequel talk - "Oh the poor quality of these followups now ruins my enjoyment of the old films". I'd certainly have liked for all the films to have been better, but you're really holding onto your anger and regret too much if the plodding Hobbit films hurt your estimation of LOTR.

I don't think she's the one angry here.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,022
Is that really your take away, that shes angry? It seems pretty far from the Lindsey that I watched, I saw someone who was passionate about what she loved, and wanted to journey as far as she was capable of to discover if there was more behind The Hobbit trilogy than she initially saw - thats the crux of these videos, her passion, and why there are quite powerful, personal, almost biographic, and through that plenty of people will discover the very nature of not just the films but the intent of the studios and the strong-arming of a nation that happened behind them.
Brava Lindsey.

Honestly it's kinda ironic to have that response, given what Callen went through regarding the premiere.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
She'd be better off in therapy for her anger issues.
Are you one of those people who cannot recognize emotions? There's no anger in anything Lindsay has ever done (in her vids). At worst some frustration. No anger.

Even shit that would warrant some anger (like the current and past shit with Channel Awesome), she's at least kept a fairly cool head in so far as what she puts forth publicly.
 

Typhonsentra

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,948
Can't say I agree with her on this one. Within the context, NZ American production teams are essentially acting as scabs undermining American unions, without the lower costs you wouldnt see productions go there and therefore have fewer people working. I can't really see the legislatures as being in the wrong in this case as they accurately judged the climate. Had the strike continued the country as a whole would have lost far more than it would likely of gained. Still shitty WB denied them residuals however.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,799
Greed is a helluva drug.

The sobering part is that this really isn't it. "Greed" is a personal vice. Warner Bros is not a person. Many of the people behind WB's inner workings may be greedy, sure, but as an entity designed for acquiring wealth, Warner Bros is working exactly as intended. It's a machine.

That means dealing with their harmful practices becomes enormously difficult. You can't appeal to the "decency" or moral imperative of a megacorporation because it has none. All you can do is try to find a way to fit into the system while minimizing exploitation, or you have to directly oppose them legally.
 

Altazor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,151
Chile
FINALLY!

Man, what a great video. I can't believe I had forgotten about the labor dispute that plagued the film's (pre?) production, and now that I watch this I realize how disgustingly scummy the actions of WB (and the NZ govt at the time were), basically crippling workers' rights while blackmailing Newzealanders with the production of a movie they wanted to see made.

But... that's capitalism.

As an aside, I really appreciated John Callen's perspective: not only he was basically right then and there when things were happening, he's also incredibly eloquent when presenting his points (and I agree with him).

So, all in all, not only the Hobbit trilogy was a missed opportunity in terms of filmmaking, it also (unnecessarily) bloated the narrative, focus-grouped major elements in a cynical and unsubtle attempt at pandering, shattered a lot of good will the original trilogy had and was made by exploiting all kinds of workers during production and managed to fuck up labor laws and workers' rights on a sovereign state even after production wrapped up, all because the suits wanted big profit above all else. God fucking dammit.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
If you know Ellis and saw the other two videos of this essay, you would know, that the LOTR films (especially the Making-ofs) inspirated her to go into the movie industry (which she achieved, until she notice, that it wasn't very fun).
That's kind of what struck me -- shouldn't someone who's spent time in the film industry have had some idea behind the purpose of offshore productions? On some level it has always been about reducing labor costs, not dealing with expensive union'ed up Hollywood stage workers, and trying to see what kind of sweetheart tax deals local governments will give you. At some point my criticism is kinda inconsequential because the point of the video is to inform its viewers about these practices, not provide a 100% authentic portrayal of Ellis's discovery and emotional journey. Something about feigned ignorance just always kinda gets my goat even when it's not particularly relevant to the subject.

1. LOTR did profoundly change her life by inspiring her to go into film, so it's disingenuous to say she isn't allowed nostalgia because she was an adult when she saw them. She said "see them like children" not "see them like when I was a child."
I didn't say she wasn't allowed nostalgia. It just struck me that she plays up the childhood angle for a film that came out when she was 17. In the second video Ellis joke-mocks her gal-pal's enthusiasm for Hobbiton, commenting "You were 27 when these came out!" as she runs around the sets like a hyperactive child.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
That's kind of what struck me -- shouldn't someone who's spent time in the film industry have had some idea behind the purpose of offshore productions? On some level it has always been about reducing labor costs, not dealing with expensive union'ed up Hollywood stage workers, and trying to see what kind of sweetheart tax deals local governments will give you. At some point my criticism is kinda inconsequential because the point of the video is to inform its viewers about these practices, not provide a 100% authentic portrayal of Ellis's discovery and emotional journey. Something about feigned ignorance just always kinda gets my goat even when it's not particularly relevant to the subject.


I didn't say she wasn't allowed nostalgia. It just struck me that she plays up the childhood angle for a film that came out when she was 17. In the second video Ellis joke-mocks her gal-pal's enthusiasm for Hobbiton, commenting "You were 27 when these came out!" as she runs around the sets like a hyperactive child.

The whole point of these video essays, made by the first video opening, is all about trying to catch the same initial childlike joy she had when watching the movies for the first time. She finishes these videos realizing she cannot go back to the same joy she had. She also brings up why film has this aura of childlike wonder even to adults because of how its made to hit an emotional core.

Furthermore, calling her a hyperactive child is really hyperbolic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
981
This was an interesting series.

For the Hobbit law the only ones to blame are the People of New Zealand themselves. They protested on the streets for this exploitation so tough luck I guess.

As for LOTR it is still the best trilogy and my favorite movies. Learning about these guys getting paid less for the Hobbit doesn't really affect my enjoyment at all, cause I hate the hobbits anyway. The whole point of consuming media, is kinda bleh. It's easy to enjoy it.
 

Goat Mimicry

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,920
A fair amount of the conclusion annoyingly echoes Star Wars prequel talk - "Oh the poor quality of these followups now ruins my enjoyment of the old films". I'd certainly have liked for all the films to have been better, but you're really holding onto your anger and regret too much if the plodding Hobbit films hurt your estimation of LOTR.

You can't just ignore prequels or sequels you don't like when they're all supposed to be a part of the same universe. At the very least, when the same filmmakers have inconsistencies in their stories, it shows that maybe the things we believed to have a lot of thought put into them really didn't.

Considering the actual content of Lindsay's videos, you're being melodramatic with that last sentence.
 

Pilgore

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
370
You can't just ignore prequels or sequels you don't like when they're all supposed to be a part of the same universe. At the very least, when the same filmmakers have inconsistencies in their stories, it shows that maybe the things we believed to have a lot of thought put into them really didn't.

Considering the actual content of Lindsay's videos, you're being melodramatic with that last sentence.

Let me guess, you hated The Last Jedi.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,801
It really feels like some people must have a very limited range of emotions if the only way they can interpret someone expressing disappointment in media they enjoy as "anger" or "rage."

There is a whole range of feelings between being perfectly content with something exactly as it is and being so consumed by anger that you require therapy.
 

Deleted member 17952

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,980
Fuck, I cried while watching that. Whew.

Made me remember how much I liked the second movie. I don't think very fondly of Guardians of the Galaxy as whole because for me the first movie, while funny, was pointless and was just there, and so I don't think much of GotG when thinking of Marvel movies. But the video reminded me that I also cried during Yondu's funeral, and that the movie left a strong emotional impact on me.
 
OP
OP
aerie

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,035
Fuck, I cried while watching that. Whew.

Made me remember how much I liked the second movie. I don't think very fondly of Guardians of the Galaxy as whole because for me the first movie, while funny, was pointless and was just there, and so I don't think much of GotG when thinking of Marvel movies. But the video reminded me that I also cried during Yondu's funeral, and that the movie left a strong emotional impact on me.
Its a fantastic video, probably my favourite that shes done just because it is quite emotional and made me appreciate Guardians Vol.2 in a different way than i did on my first viewing. James Gunn even left a comment on that video, though very brief.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,178
UK
While we are on the topic of media consumption and greedy cooperations exploiting the people making that media...

Who here is planning on getting Red Dead Redemption 2 on day 1?

I'm totally guilty of this too, just food for thought.
Nope. Then again I didn't care for Red Dead Redemption. Haven't bought a Rockstar game since Table Tennis, and their labour exploitation plays a part of the reason other than generally not liking the game design and gamefeel of their open world games.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
It really feels like some people must have a very limited range of emotions if the only way they can interpret someone expressing disappointment in media they enjoy as "anger" or "rage."

There is a whole range of feelings between being perfectly content with something exactly as it is and being so consumed by anger that you require therapy.
I think it's more disingenuous than that. It's the "U MAD?" internet culture in full swing: Portray any sort of disagreement as blind, irrational fury because that makes it easier to personally dismiss.
 

Plastic Shark

Member
Nov 17, 2017
1,831
Great and illuminating videos.
I was really curious about the Hobbit's role in screwing over New Zealand, man just exploiting the workers like that is awful. Here's hoping the Hobbit law gets repealed.
I mean, it's barely a surprise exploitation like that would come from corporations but to have New Zealand's prime minister having role in it is shameful. Although it did allow big films to be shot there I suppose.
Liked that Freudian Slip from him tho.
 

javiBear

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
886
I stumbled upon her first two Hobbit videos and enjoyed her content. Im dying to see how she ended this, considering she extended her rant and made a third video lmao
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
Why couldn't they just film it with everyone.
It could be scheduling conflicts but honestly I believe it's because of the decision to film at 48fps. They couldn't use the neat perspective tricks they used before to film hobbits and normal sized people in the same scene and make the hobbits look smaller because that looks more obvious at high framerates, so they had to just film the two separately and CGI it in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,251
Do you know the context of this scene? Why couldn't they just film it with everyone.

As Lindsay explained in one of the previous parts, the films were shot in 48 fps, but a lot of existing practical effects, even those that would be convincing in most films, look fake at a higher framerate. That includes the forced perspective that was used in previous films to put hobbits and normal-sized characters in the same scenes, necessitating that McKellan shoot his parts separately from the rest of the cast in The Hobbit.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
It could be scheduling conflicts but honestly I believe it's because of the decision to film at 48fps. They couldn't use the neat perspective tricks they used before to film hobbits and normal sized people in the same scene and make the hobbits look smaller because that looks more obvious at high framerates, so they had to just film the two separately and CGI it in.
Also 3D. The forced perspective trick wouldn't work with 3D gimmicks.
 

Silex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
Its a fantastic video, probably my favourite that shes done just because it is quite emotional and made me appreciate Guardians Vol.2 in a different way than i did on my first viewing. James Gunn even left a comment on that video, though very brief.

He also tweeted about it, which was also very cool.

 

flare

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,306
Well this video was depressing... Honestly, I had no idea what was going on in New Zealand and their labour laws. Just sad and frustrating.
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
That's kind of what struck me -- shouldn't someone who's spent time in the film industry have had some idea behind the purpose of offshore productions

Well, that's like asking a doctor in cardiology about brain cancer. The doctor may get the basics of it, but never actually see the nitty gritty up close. I don't think the camera guy knows the nitty gritty of the financial politics, but he might have the basic idea of it.

You know the theory but to see WB strong arm an island nation is RL is pretty wild.