SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,743
Okay, let's start with this. I've always had the opinion that Man of Steel is a fine movie. Occasionally my stance is it's a great Dragon Ball Z film, and a mediocre at best Superman film. It never really made me angry, because there ARE some good parts to it.

But last night I read Superman: Birthright and Superman: Secret Origin, and the more I read of each one, the more I realize that I only think Man of Steel is "fine" when viewed in a vacuum. When specifically compared to Mark Waid (or even Geoff Johns') comics, Man of Steel goes from "yeah, whatever" to embarrassing. How could anyone have looked at that film and thought it could be a decent representation of Superman? The best parts of it are the beginning where they show Kryptonian society, and the fight scenes (like I said, DBZ). It's boring-ass muted colors and a Superman film that's trying so hard to get across a bunch of lazy metaphors about Christ are indicative of direction from a man who does not understand Superman, on any level.

Last night, I cried multiple times reading Birthright and Secret Origin. Not full out bawling, but my eyes welled up because there's just SO much heart to the character. Like, let's take Geoff Johns' Secret Origin. The first issue has Clark as a young teenager who's powers are starting to make more and more trouble for him. He can't play football--his best friend tackles him and breaks his arm. He kisses his other friend Lana Lang and heat vision nearly burns the school down. Finally his dad decides to show him who he is, and when he touches the space ship he arrived in, Jor-El and Lara-El show up and explain who he is and what Krypton was. He snaps and tries to burn down the space ship. Why?

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The solution to making Superman relatable isn't constantly weakening him until he's no stronger than any other superhero. It's challenging him with things that you can't just punch away. Like finding out that your parents aren't your birth parents. That you aren't even human, and your own people--your own culture--is long dead. Geoff Johns' Superman struggles with the feeling of being isolated--of feeling like no one else in the world understands him. That's something we all identify with, even if we can't pick up a truck.

Superman: Secret Origin is so blindingly obvious as an origin story (minus the Legion, which wouldn't fit in a movie) that I'm amazed they didn't just turn it into a screenplay. Superman winds up dealing with Lex Luthor, Parasite, and Metallo in a story that doesn't leave Metropolis destroyed, but does show Superman putting his life at risk time and time again to save the people. He puts himself right in the path of Metallo's Kryptonite blasts. And when they confront him about it--who he is, what he wants--we get a simple explanation of who the character is that anyone can understand:

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Let's try Superman: Birthright. That's a little less Silver Age-y, and is more of an attempt to modernize the 1986 Superman origin Man of Steel for the 2000's era. Mark Waid loves Superman, and you can tell it in every page he writes the character. But Mark was a guy who kinda liked Man of Steel (the film), even the dumb parts like Jon Kent wanting to be selfish. Let's look at how he handles that. In Waid's Birthright, Jonathan Kent is a man struggling with the fact that he's about to lose his son to the world. The moment Clark makes the decision to try and openly help people, Jonathan becomes noticeably more distant. While his wife is excited to share her son, Jon becomes so frustrated that he literally tries to smash Clark's ship inside their barn...and the building nearly collapses on him. And instead of us getting that stupid scene where Clark doesn't save his own dad from a fucking tornado (more on that later), we get this:

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Granted, both comics go out of their way to make Clark Kent into a "gee whiz, aw shucks" kinda dude. But that's a complete change when he becomes Superman. This is Superman after he's had to save Metropolis from some wanton destruction caused by Lex Luthor:

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That's Superman. The nicest guy in the world until you start harming people who've done nothing wrong to you. Then you realize he's a godlike being who COULD choose to make you a speck on the wall, and just chooses not to because that's not how he was raised. But he WILL scare the piss out of you. Of course, this comes back to haunt Superman later. Lex decides to use the secret knowledge he's gained of Krypton to make society aware of Superman being an alien and make them believe he's the advanced scout for an alien invasion. Only HE knows the truth:

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You want to set Lex up as an amazing supervillain? This is how it's done. You have him explain to Superman that he's alone in the world--everyone he ever knew died decades ago. And you rub his face in it for no other reason than that he called you on your own bullshit. It's so delightfully Lex. Lex even goes so far as to fund an entire army that pretends to be Kryptonian, dressing them up in the crest of Superman's home world, having them lay waste to the city. That's how you hurt a man who's invincible but just wants to help people and to be loved. You make the people turn against him, you make it so he can't help anyone. The second you make it about punching Superman should always win, but there's ways to challenge him that don't involve punching.

He's had the opportunity to study pieces of Krypton so he makes them look convincingly alien, while also weaponizing Kryptonite radiation to weaken Superman and make him unable to fight back, in the belief that Superman would run away to protect himself. Because that's what anybody would do, right?

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Right.

Eventually, Lois Lane helps Superman by getting the Kryptonite out of the machine that's broadcasting it's radiation across the city. It comes down to a showdown between Lex and Superman but that's basically a wash. Lex does have a way to communicate with the Kryptonians though, sending signals to the past while also allowing them to see the present. That leads to this scene, where Superman gets to communicate just one time with his birth parents:

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Superman is often thought of as the ultimate immigrant story, and Birthright really highlights this idea. Even Superman's birth family only wants the best for him, and while they sent him to a planet where he'd wind up with all these powers, ultimately they had no way of knowing that. They only knew that his best chance for survival (nevermind success) was somewhere where they wouldn't ever see him again.

That DC manages to put out multiple films that so obviously miss the point of Superman becomes more insulting the more of his comics you read. He's so EASY to get. Even Grant Morrison's Socialist Superman is cool:

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This would've been fine for a Superman that dealt primarily with social issues, though admittedly having Superman be a cocky dick doesn't work IMO when he's facing alien threats (makes him too much like everyone else).

One last set of images from Superman: Secret Origin:
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Imagine fucking this character up.
 

Volimar

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Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,756
I still think it was fine, though I could do without Snyder's love of the Messiah imagery. The problem is, you can't really get away with a "meh" Superman film in the age of comic book films.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,230
Man of Steel is dogshit in comparison to any Superman comic, yes, even at Worlds End where he kills twin clones of Hitler with a giant minigun. At least that shit was funny.

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Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,269
Zach Snyder has no freaking idea about Superman's actual character.
Its a good thing WB gave him another truck of cash to make more crap.

Hell, he has no idea about Luthor's character either if it comes to that.

I'd watch any episode of Superman the animated series over watching Man of Steel again.
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,553
Man of Steel had some good parts but they really couldn't get it together at the end. Huge missed opportunity.

It really puts in stark contrast how well Marvel was able to distill a character like Captain America into, what I consider him to be, the best version of the character.

ETA: I've posted this here before but the best version of Superman, as a character, put to film is in Superman 3.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
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Snyder doesn't understand Superman, or Batman or any superhero really and thinks they're all edgy tryhards from the 90s. It's why Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman are both just so bad. As much as people shit on Justice League, the closest Henry Cavill has ever been to portraying Superman properly is in those scenes near the end of the movie where he leaves Steppenwolf to Wonder Woman and Aquaman so that he and Barry can evacuate the civilians.
 

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,790
Canada
Mark Waid:

Non-spoiler review: It's not for me. It had some very nice moments, several I wish I'd written (and at least three I did, I'm proud to say–there was lots of BIRTHRIGHT in it), but I can't imagine wanting to watch it again anytime soon. YMMV. It's a good science-fiction movie, but it's very cold. It's not a very satisfying super-hero movie. That said, if your favorite part of SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE was Superman standing in the Fortress while Jor-El lectured him, you're gonna love MAN OF STEEL.


Definitely read his spoiler thoughts on the movie
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,230
Man of Steel had some good parts but they really couldn't get it together at the end. Huge missed opportunity.

It really puts in stark contrast how well Marvel was able to distill a character like Captain America into, what I consider him to be, the best version of the character.

MCU Cap is a better Superman than the Superman we actually got.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,024
Superman is not actually some horribly complicated character to write for, you just need to grasp the idea that an inhumanely good man who desires nothing more than to use his power to help others can be an inspiring figure, and that the fact that he can't be punched out in a fight just means you need to create drama and conflict by presenting him with difficult choices or put what he cares about at risk
 
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SageShinigami

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,743
Mark Waid:


Definitely read his spoiler thoughts on the movie

I talk about this very review in my OP. Specifically, this:


And I think you'd be surprised to find that I loved everything about Jonathan Kent. I loved his protectiveness, even when it made him sound like an asshole. ("Maybe.") And I loved, loved, loved that scene where Clark didn't save him, because Goyer did something magical–he took two moments that, individually, I would have hated and he welded them together into something amazing. Out of context, I would have hated that Clark said "You're not my real dad," or whatever he says right before the tornado. And out of context, I would have loathed that Clark stood by frozen with helplessness as the tornado killed Jonathan. But the reason that beat worked is because Clark had just said "You're not my dad," the last real words he said to Pa. Tearful Clark choosing to go against his every instinct in that last second because he had to show his father he trusted him after all, because he had to show Pa that Pa could trust him and that Clark had learned, Clark did love him–that worked for me, hugely. It was a very brave story choice, but it worked. It worked largely on the shoulders of Cavill, who sold it. It worked as a tragic rite of passage. I kinda wish I'd written that scene.

Mark is a tremendous talent. Mark is also wrong about this scene.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,269
The original post crisis Man of Steel series by John Bryne still holds up really well.
I read it recently.
Honestly I still consider it the best Superman origin story.

Although I do kinda like the 3 part animated series origin better.
 

King Kingo

Banned
Dec 3, 2019
7,656
Man of Steel gave me the impression that Zack Snyder's narratives are too mature for kids yet too immature for adults at the same time.

He seems like a swell guy but his narrative choices are just off-putting to me. He's all imagery with no substance with his superhero flicks.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
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Oct 25, 2017
18,269
Zack Snyder always comes across as the sort of guy who is embarrased by the source material but arrogant enough to believe he can do it better.
He can't.
 
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SageShinigami

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,743
The original post crisis Man of Steel series by John Bryne still holds up really well.
I read it recently.
Honestly I still consider it the best Superman origin story.

Although I do kinda like the 3 part animated series origin better.

I think MoS lacks a bit of the heart that Birthright and Secret Origin has, but it's still really good.
 
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Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,269
The animated series also has the best Brainiac.
It was a super smart decision to tie him to Krypton.

It has the best Toyman too. A right creepy fuck.
 

Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
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Oct 27, 2017
7,736
MoS is garbage regardless of any comparison
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
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Oct 25, 2017
18,269
Where's my Blurays of Superman the animated series WB?

We have Btas, Batman Beyond, Justice League. Gives Supes some love.
 

Book One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,868
Man, I really loved both of those origin books. Secret Origin in particular I actually wasn't expecting much but it was a great read.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
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Oct 25, 2017
18,269
Oh shit apparently Superman the Animated series HAs been announced for Bluray release next year!

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Edit: maybe not :( Think I got rused.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
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Oct 25, 2017
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OP, I would also recommend Marv Wolfman and Claudio Castellini's "Man and Superman", which does go over familiar ground but keeps it centered almost entirely from Clark's perspective in a way others don't

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And if you're in a reading mood, track down the novel "It's Superman!" by Tom De Haven

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An ultra grounded origin story that takes place in the late 30s as a young Clark becomes Superman for the first time. Probably has my favorite look at how he relates to Smallville, and it's pretty refreshing to read a Superman origin that completely removes any Kryptonian influence and just has Clark make the decision to become Superman based on the world around him.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
I hate EVERY rewrite of Superman. The beauty of Action 1 is how much it gets right the first time. No current or future writer should get credit for Siegel and Shuster laying out an entire industry. Morrison New 52 got close but it's still a reboot and everyone after him boned it up anyways.

I have to concede that Superman snapping Zod's neck is going to bug me forever and that it can't be undone. Unless the Legion gets involved I guess.
 

JayCB64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,035
Wales
Honestly, it always feels like Snyder embarrassed of the source material rather than being inspired by it, which is why I'm convinced that the people who trip over themselves to say how good it is are Snyder fans rather than DC fans. The difference between the comics I've read over the years, including some of the incredible ones in the OP, and the dour cold mess Snyder handed us is staggering.
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,098
Really don't need the "in comparison" there. I have rarely seen a director misunderstand his own material as regularly and thoroughly as Zack Snyder does. He has absolutely no idea what Superman or Watchmen are about, and the movies that resulted are not just bad but honestly embarrassing. I am embarrassed for Snyder when I watch his movies.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
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Oct 25, 2017
11,269
What's honestly bizarre is that like, there's a foreward to the TPB of Superman: Secret Origin, written by David Goyer - the guy behind Man of Steel's screenplay - talking about how the comic supposedly inspired the film, and just like... it doesn't really do the film any favours, but you realise how he's somehow managed to miss the point in so many key bits. Like, I still feel Man of Steel is ultimately okay, but it really misses just how... comfy, Secret Origin is supposed to be, for supposedly taking inspiration from it.

My favourite moment, which just reinforces that:
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Like, I first read this comic when I was in secondary school, but this moment hits even harder after ever since I had to move out from my parents for my first full time job.
 
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SageShinigami

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,743
I hate EVERY rewrite of Superman. The beauty of Action 1 is how much it gets right the first time. No current or future writer should get credit for Siegel and Shuster laying out an entire industry. Morrison New 52 got close but it's still a reboot and everyone after him boned it up anyways.

I have to concede that Superman snapping Zod's neck is going to bug me forever and that it can't be undone. Unless the Legion gets involved I guess.

This is...quite the hot take. I read Action 1 for research on some stuff I'm doing for work, and...yeah they set it up but that book definitely doesn't have the heart that Birthright or Secret Origin does. It's not even as good as Superman #146.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,269
If people are interested, you should check of Superman for All Seasons as well. By Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale.
Its kinda of an origin story but a bit more broad. Its very good though.

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Hellers

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,394
While not an origin story the recent Superman - Up In the Sky by Tom King really got Superman for me. Especially the final issue.
 

BKatastrophe

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Oct 28, 2017
13,359
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Glass

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,258
No lies detected OP.

Superman needs to be done with a nuanced hand otherwise he becomes what all his detractors says he is (overpowered, boring etc) . Snyder just aint the guy.

I'll always remember seeing MoS on opening night , and spotting a kid no older then 7 with the classic 'S' t shirt before hand, and afterwards wondering how he was after that ending.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,972
Man of Steel had all the right pieces there to be a great Superman origin story, and honestly, I think it was mostly good overall. And yeah---it definitely had it's flaws. Where it failed was in the sequel. That was the film where they needed to show us how Superman has grown and matured into the superhero we all know and love after dealing with the shit he did in Man of Steel. That film dropped the ball hard.

And Snyder gets too much shit for Man of Steel. One of its biggest issues was in its structure, which tried copying Batman Begins. Not a coincidence it shared a writer too.