signal

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Oct 28, 2017
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Kotaku

When Demon's Souls came out, it had several interesting ideas about how to utilize online interactivity. One of these was its messaging system. Any player could choose from a small bank of words and phrases to construct sentences, represented visually as a strip of glowing runes on the ground. The game was largely played solo, but messages made by one player could be seen by others, who had the option to rate a given message and give its author a health boost.
Humans being humans, a bit of crudeness crept in, aided by some of Demon's Souls linguistic ambiguities, such as the unassuming noun of "Head." Give people a blank wall and spraypaint and someone will eventually draw genitalia. Crucial to this metaphor is the fact that such anatomical graffiti, at least in openly public spaces, is nearly always of a penis. In one sense, it is a juvenile joke; in another and more serious sense, it is a territorial, gendered assertion of power. Such has been the evolutionary trend of the grosser Soulsborne messages, with an important distinction: their targets.
It got worse. Perhaps it didn't help that the post-Demon's Souls titles' promotional material and press coverage emphasized the trial and error design. The subtitle for Dark Souls' PC release was Prepare to Die Edition. A cover of Edge magazine read, "How the creators of Demon's Souls are making the most hardcore game of 2011." This was influenced by, but also fed into, the commentary of many players themselves until there was a perfect loop of word-of-mouth and branding. During Dark Souls 2's development, co-director Tomohiro Shibuya talked about making the game more "accessible," and this invoked an outrage only warily quelled when it was clarified that such accessibility involved quality of life adjustments.

All of this recalled videogames' earlier advertorial and critical periods that stressed difficulty and presented the medium as an exclusive club, where entry was dependent upon performative abilities. Implicitly and explicitly, this was a boys' club. Since this gatekeeping has come under threat as the medium's reach has expanded, we've witnessed escalating hysterics by men to protect their space and consumerist identities. It's not such a leap to hypothesize that this tough-as-nails branding of the Soulsborne games drew in a portion of the "git gud" contingent: anxious, angry, and arrogant men who derive entertainment from surrounding fictional women with ghostly perimeters of misogyny.
When Dark Souls 2 hit,any factors mitigating the presence of toxic gamers seemed to evaporate, creating an open season for female characters. They, and the Emerald Herald most of all, were so aggressively targeted by player messages— "weakness: hole therefore man required ahead", "try plunging attack, rear…", "try two-handing and then destroy", etc.—that I have, to date, never loaded a file in Majula and not found a swamp of textual harassment. Its range extended all the way to the world's near-deepest parts, where sheltered, mysterious women sang lonely songs.
Anyone who has played these games will know that the majority of players' messages don't fit into the discussed paradigm. They mostly preempt hurdles, proclaim victories, encourage curiosity, and craft humorous, mimetic mini-narratives. Yet the sexist messages' exceptional nature arguably heightens their presence. Once you can guess what a bunch of messages around a woman are bound to be, it colors your perception of that space. Coming back to a hub after some spelunking is not just a return to relative security, but can be a reminder of the cultural toxicity bubbling beneath the games' surfaces. YouTube user Jameserton's video, "HAPPY SOULS", has accrued nearly 17 million views since 2016, and, as good-natured as it is, even it contextualizes the sight of the Emerald Herald encompassed by "Try thrusting" and "ambush behind."
The general response has been to either tolerate or embrace these messages as a dependable cultural signifier, like a thing that just came with the territory. In one Reddit thread about celebrating player messages, a rare dissenter who clumsily says they've tired of the sleaze is called a "salty kid who needs to git gud" and is told to "lighten the fuck up." In another thread elsewhere, a person who specifically voices their disgust for the sexist messages is replied to with, "You've always been able to play offline." But just because you've averted your eyes doesn't mean the thing has disappeared. Willful ignorance is not a solution.

Surprisingly lengthy article for something I didn't think anyone put much thought into. Anyone here bothered by these messages? Never found them that bad but the lewd humour got kind of derivative and bland after the legacy of Sticky White Stuff in Demon's so I basically stopped reading most messages since they were either this or just "praise the sun" with 900 thumbs up.

The occasional "Like A Dream..........." messages in front of views are still good though.
 

Mendrox

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Oct 26, 2017
9,439
Kotaku








Surprisingly lengthy article for something I didn't think anyone put much thought into. Anyone here bothered by these messages? Never found them that bad but the lewd humour got kind of derivative and bland after the legacy of Sticky White Stuff in Demon's so I basically stopped reading most messages since they were either this or just "praise the sun" with 900 thumbs up.

The occasional "Like A Dream..........." messages in front of views are still good though.

No they are funny like amazing chest ahead
 

Kudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,982
Haven't noticed this issue myself but can't deny that some of the memes.
My playthroughs consist of helpful messages most of the time and sharing joy of beating boss with others, maybe it's a regional thing since messages probably are fetched from players near you?
 

Chromie

Member
Dec 4, 2017
5,423
Nope. Doesn't bother me. The feature itself is great but I do wish messages that were helpful would be pushed to the game world instead of jokes.

Still, don't see why this would affect anyone's opinion on the game itself.
 
Nov 13, 2017
9,537
The only sexist one I can recall is "amazing chest ahead" in reference to who you meet in Anor Londo, but come on, that's one hell of a good pun.

I don't think the messages that tell you to stick your finger in the butts of statues or corpses are sexist. Never played DS2 though and it looks like this criticism might be more geared toward that entry in particular.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
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Give people a blank wall and spraypaint and someone will eventually draw genitalia. Crucial to this metaphor is the fact that such anatomical graffiti, at least in openly public spaces, is nearly always of a penis. In one sense, it is a juvenile joke; in another and more serious sense, it is a territorial, gendered assertion of power.

l2qJ7zi.gif
 

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,129
I've read lots of amusing messages in the Souls games, using the limited vocabulary of the messaging system to construct these dumb jokes is genuinely funny. The detached nature of the messages gives them an ironic air which may or not be intentional by the author. When I walked into Gwynevere's chamber and read "amazing chest" on the floor, I laughed.
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
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Oct 25, 2017
15,526
Seoul
Things like "try tongue but hole " and "Weakness :behind " is literally left everywhere. The first note I made was behind the corpse of a fat Knight in DS3 saying " behind ahead".

No one else is thinking that much about something like
1461222034142.jpg


Either he is trying too hard or has somehow missed 90% of those notes. This guy must have really needed to put out an article
 
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Strafer

The Flagpole is Wider
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,932
Sweden
Any reason why? Just curious.

I tried once but kept getting invaded by overpowered or hacked characters that just destroyed me, and I hate PvP in general.

I also like to do all off the NPC questlines which requires you to be human.

And the experience is more exciting if you dont know where every hidden wall is.
 

Mobyduck

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Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
I can definitely see how this can bother people, such as the author. I never gave too much thought about it, and when I played the games saw as a creative way to mess with an otherwise dark game. But I imagine I'd be upset if, say, a homossexual character in the game was surrounded by those kinds of messages; I'd find it disrespecting. So I can empathize with people who think these messages that are always found around female characters are sexist.
 
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signal

signal

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Oct 28, 2017
41,101
No they are funny like amazing chest ahead
I don't find them offensive but do you actually find them funny? I guess it's subjective but I can't recall any that caused anything more than a "heh, k"

I should look up more, there are probably more original ones that I'd find funny.
 

DarkJ

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Nov 11, 2017
1,323
Every NPC basically has one of these messages next to them. I always thought it was clever how weird/funny people could get with a limited messaging system.
 

Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,721
They're stupid but don't bother me. I occasionally chuckle, especially if I'm in an area that's been really stressful. Helps lighten the mood.
 

Stoney

Banned
Aug 24, 2018
181
I don't find them offensive but do you actually find them funny? I guess it's subjective but I can't recall any that caused anything more than a "heh, k"

I should look up more, there are probably more original ones that I'd find funny.
Well humor is subjective. It's harmless and if some people find it funny then let them have fun.

I think some people like the author in this case just feel the need to complain about things and they end up writing ridiculous articles like this one.
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
I don't find them offensive but do you actually find them funny? I guess it's subjective but I can't recall any that caused anything more than a "heh, k"

I should look up more, there are probably more original ones that I'd find funny.

hehe, k is more than enough fun in that dark and horrible world for me :P
 

MegaSackman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,589
Argentina
Haven't noticed this issue myself but can't deny that some of the memes.
My playthroughs consist of helpful messages most of the time and sharing joy of beating boss with others, maybe it's a regional thing since messages probably are fetched from players near you?

Exactly my experience, at most I encounter the obligatory hidden wall message that leads to you hitting concrete walls like an idiot. Other than that, always helpful stuff.
 

Kalor

Resettlement Advisor
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Oct 25, 2017
20,211
I could definitely do without the messages. I've never found them to be funny and you'll find them near pretty much every female character. Unfortunately that's an aspect of the fanbase with how toxic it has gotten with certain ideas, as the article mentions.
 

Raza

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,611
Ohio
The best ones in DS2 were the "Don't give up skeleton!" messages next to corpses either stuck in walls or in awkward positions. And yeah, there are crude messages next to almost every NPC, not just the emerald herald.
 

SliceSabre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,556
I dunno. I get what the writer is going for here but I can't help but laugh when someone puts "Amazing chest ahead" sign before a woman the size of a building or even "amazing chest ahead" sign in front of an old undead merchant woman or "Amazing chest ahead" in front of a beefy shirtless dude.

Not to mention the signs are everywhere and related to everything possible player can think of and shoehorn together using the pre-made words. "Try jumping" is still funny to me. I also couldn't imagine how the devs would control this unless they disabled signs altogether which would take away from the online experience.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
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Oct 27, 2017
15,682
Yeah I def get how people could be offended by this. I could see the logic that implies the people putting those types of messages down near the Emerald Herald would see woman as sexual objects first and a person later.
 

Kenzodielocke

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Oct 25, 2017
13,193
Those were really rare in Demon's Souls and enhanced the experience, instead of diminishing it, which was the case since Dark Souls.
 
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signal

signal

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Oct 28, 2017
41,101
Well humor is subjective. It's harmless and if some people find it funny then let them have fun.

I think some people like the author in this case just feel the need to complain about things and they end up writing ridiculous articles like this one.
It's just so repetitive and you encounter the same messages like 2 dozen times per game. "try tongue, but hole for the 18th time this play through, lol I guess"

I like the dumb shit like this though
PkMlXke.jpg
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,877
The skeleton messages are funny. Seeing the Emerald Herald surrounded by sexists messages is not.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
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Every NPC basically has one of these messages next to them. I always thought it was clever how weird/funny people could get with a limited messaging system.

There's an interesting article that could be written about games with limited communications like Dark Souls trolling messages about jumping or invisible walls, through Hearthstones sarcastic thanks emotes through a Saussurean interpretation of semiotics.

This ain't it.
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
In another thread elsewhere, a person who specifically voices their disgust for the sexist messages is replied to with, "You've always been able to play offline." But just because you've averted your eyes doesn't mean the thing has disappeared. Willful ignorance is not a solution.

Uh, that's kind of the only option you have at the moment though. You're not going to change the culture any time soon, and I don't think it's practical to have someone screen every message for possible offense before it's posted. Maybe they can devise an algorithm to find offensive messages (or just release their bank of phrases to the public and ask them to go nuts) and make it so the red flags only show up in the world of the person who wrote the message?
 

Opa-Pa

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Oct 25, 2017
8,812
I have to admit my dumb self did get a chuckle out of "amazing chest ahead" because Gwynevere's design is just ridiculous, but that's about it. The amount of these there are in the games is ridiculous tho and at one point I simply stopped bothering with messages placed near female characters/statues/etc, it's eyerolling.

Not sure what's even the point of claiming they're harmless if you're a man either, but what do I know.

"Don't give up skeleton" tho, now that's the good, wholesome content we need more of.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
20,482
I remember when I first started Demon's Souls. Went into the Nexus to the woman there, and there was a note on the floor saying "sticky white stuff".

It was a case of 'ohhh... It's gonna be one of those games'.
 

Onebadlion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,208
They are silly and juvenile, but I don't think I can agree with the writer, who makes a few huge leaps in that article. I'm not convinced that its sexist to leave a silly pun next to a female NPC. The typical messages you see next to Gwynevere are kinda pointing out the obvious. If there's anything sexist there, its the ridiculous proportions of the character.
 

Lys Skygge

Shinra Employee
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Oct 25, 2017
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Eh, I think they're pretty funny. "Wondrous Chest Ahead" definitely made me laugh out loud the first time I saw it in Gwyneveres chamber.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,446
The sheer amount of these messages would put me off if I were a woman. It's not one or two messages spread throughout the game, they're everywhere. I think the author is on to something, even if I expect the article to be ridiculed by a vast amount of male gamers.