Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,344
Ever since Vindictus was released, we've seen a bunch of other action combat MMO/MMORPGs coming out of the wood works. I'm not claiming Vindictus invented it. I don't know what game had the first action combat, but Vindictus was one of the earliest. It's also like the only one that did it well. I mean, if you know other games, please by all means, educate me, cause I'm desperate for something Vindictus-like. Sadly, the game is dying and Nexon is ruining it.

You can criticize Vindictus for a lot of things, but that game NAILED the combat that no MMO game can replicate to this day.

A lot of games claim to use action combat, but at the end of the day, it's more like tab targeting, but you have to aim your attacks. Tera claims to be action combat, and it is... sort of. Your attacks are based on button presses, but your skills are still tied to the hotkey. The flow is just never as good as Vindictus. The problem with hotkeys is that you have to wait for your attacks to cool-down. Many of the moves in Vindictus is about timing your hits and not waiting for it to cool-down. Like seriously, I'm going to have to remember my skill cool down 1/100th of a second faster cause I leveled it up?

Look at this clusterfuck at the bottom.

wD5otTg.jpg


More often than not, I am not focusing on the enemy in other action MMOs. I'm also distracted by my cool-downs instead of looking at the enemy's movement. In Vindictus, I almost never have to look at my UI, cause 90% of my moves aren't hotkey with cool downs.

Every character in Vindictus does have a few moves that require a cool-down, but that's like maybe 5 moves (depending on the character). One of them is your super move. I can focus all of my attention into dodging attacks, chasing the enemy, or observing the boss's animation for his attacks. Some moves can be cancelled out. Some moves have faster recovery. Your character's animation is just as important.

The other thing with Vindictus is that THE HIT BOX MATTERS! I've seen people make use of a completely useless move (IMO) and turned it into a dodge because the character lowers himself before the attack, thereby making the hit box smaller. During character creation, a taller character has longer reach, but also have bigger hit box and slower animation. Because of the way Vindictus works, it doesn't fall into the typical MMO class setup. Yes, you have your DPS, Healer (LOL), Tank, and Mage in Vindictus. What makes this different is everyone can be a Tank, or a DPS role. You can have an archer tank if you're good at dodging and reading the moves. You can have a mage tank if you're good at dodging and reading the moves. You can have a Healer DPS if you're good at dodging and reading the moves. You can have a Tank DPS if you're good at dodging and reading the moves.

You can run raids solo if you have the skills in Vindictus.



Look at his empty UI on the top left have corner. This is a pretty high level Lann, so it's not like he doesn't have all the essential moves. He has them. All he has with him are some potions for buffs, and his super move. To be fair, this guy is going super minimalist in this run, but I hope you see what I'm getting at here. Also notice how around 2:15, his HP is down to 1. He doesn't even bother to heal because he is dodging everything. He's sure as fuck not looking for his moves to cool-down. At around 3:30, he uses his super move. That has a cool-down.



Here one with a more cluttered UI. Noticed how most of the boxes are never used except for maybe the 1st and 2nd box? That's cause most of the attacks aren't hotkeys. I don't play Fiona much, so I'm not good at reading everything she's doing, but she is basically Tank DPS in that video.

I'm only using Tera as an example cause it's the only one I played extensively that's still alive. I've played games like Rusty Hearts, Continent of the Ninth, and a few others. I'm just kind of frustrated to see the genre not really going anywhere. It's not like a working example doesn't exist. It's been around for 8 years and it's slowly dying. Every time I hear about a new action MMO, I get excited only to be let down. I heard Blade & Soul is different? But I'm not seeing what makes the action combat any better than Tera or any of the other action MMO titles not named Vindictus.
 
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Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Somehow I've never played Vindictus. Watching a video and it looks great. I did play Tera and I thought the combat was excellent in that. I mean, MMOs in general are a very difficult and expensive undertaking so there's not a lot of them. Black Desert has flashy combat but idk doesn't seem as good as Vindictus.
 

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
GW2 was supposed to do this, but its systems didnt really make that much of a difference.
 
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Cow Mengde

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,344
Somehow I've never played Vindictus. Watching a video and it looks great. I did play Tera and I thought the combat was excellent in that. I mean, MMOs in general are a very difficult and expensive undertaking so there's not a lot of them. Black Desert has flashy combat but idk doesn't seem as good as Vindictus.

Keep in mind the videos I posted as high level play here. Expect your ass to be whipped.

As someone who only got to maybe level 10 in Tera, how do you manage that cluster of buttons and hotkeys at high level play? Can you solo raids with only 1 HP like you can in Vindictus? Vindictus has no hit speed runs for raids on youtube.
 

Deleted member 9237

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,789
Even when the genre was doing well there was a lack of innovation. I haven't looked at numbers, but I feel MMOs aren't what they were 10 years ago, so who's gonna take a big risk to come up with something new?
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Keep in mind the videos I posted as high level play here. Expect your ass to be whipped.

As someone who only got to maybe level 10 in Tera, how do you manage that cluster of buttons and hotkeys at high level play? Can you solo raids with only 1 HP like you can in Vindictus? Vindictus has no hit speed runs for raids on youtube.

I didn't get very high level in Tera, my friends got bored of it so I didn't stick with it either. I got to about level 35, and yeah the UI is not great in Tera but there's a way to setup combos in the interface that make it so you don't have to glance down so much.

I really like the action based combat systems in MMOs but I also really liked the combat in World of Warcraft which is entirely hotkey/cooldown based. I raided the hardest content in WoW and luckily with that game there's a lot of customization in how you set up your UI, you can change it around almost exactly as you like so you could arrange things in such a way that you could focus on what the enemy was doing while also glancing at your hotbars to see what was going on with your cooldowns.
 
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Cow Mengde

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,344
Even when the genre was doing well there was a lack of innovation. I haven't looked at numbers, but I feel MMOs aren't what they were 10 years ago, so who's gonna take a big risk to come up with something new?

Hell, it's not even about something new. The mechanics are already there and perfected. There's no need to come up with something else.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,584
Because the way MMO combat is right now in the most popular games like WoW and FFXIV is exactly what a lot of people come to MMO's for.

Skill management, learning a rotation, learning how to weave skills these things are what makes "MMO combat" fun. There isn't a "need" to evolve because there isn't a problem to be solved.
 

Bombless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,929
Because of the first M in MMO. You can't have that kind of combat and accommodate tons of players without it becoming a clusterfuck.
 

Retromelon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
622
Because the way MMO combat is right now in the most popular games like WoW and FFXIV is exactly what a lot of people come to MMO's for.

Skill management, learning a rotation, learning how to weave skills these things are what makes "MMO combat" fun. There isn't a "need" to evolve because there isn't a problem to be solved.
Wow is a decade past its prime and no one raves about ff14 for its combat. The mmo genre is on life support compared to what it used to be like. Western devs dont even really make new ones anymore
 

Jerykk

Banned
Dec 26, 2017
1,184
Latency is always going to be a giant obstacle to more action-based combat systems. When you have action-based combat, timing and precision are extremely important and that doesn't really work so well when you have a 150+ millisecond ping. Vindictus works because it was designed for PvE above all else but most MMOs design their combat systems around PvP as well.

The other issue is that most MMO players don't like fully-committed attack animations. They always want full control over their character. If they have to stop moving in order to attack, they consider that slow and clunky.
 

Mithos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
218
As someone who only got to maybe level 10 in Tera, how do you manage that cluster of buttons and hotkeys at high level play? Can you solo raids with only 1 HP like you can in Vindictus? Vindictus has no hit speed runs for raids on youtube.

Like someone else said, combos/chained skills is something you sue a lot on higher levels in TERA so you do not really need all those buttons. You can solo a lot with some characters, I leveled (and did ALL red quest lines that existed then) level 1-65 on my Gunner and Sorcerer alone even on the 5 man instances (it was tough sometimes).

And leveling today is FAST compared to when I started TERA for the first time, I think it has changed at least 2 times after my first start, you can 1-65 in a day or two now.

Getting hit puts a slowdown effect on your movement in TERA though so 1HP and staying alive against world bosses might be extremely tough if not impossible.
 

Kayo Police

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,284
FF14 for all its good, is still to me incredibly slow in terms of combat, not to mention the GCD feels like an eternity.
 

BizzyBum

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,865
New York
An MMO way ahead of its time IMO was Neocron all the way back in 2002. It has real time first/third person shooting / spell casting in a post apocalyptic cyberpunk world.

I played the shit out of it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,497
Because of the first M in MMO. You can't have that kind of combat and accommodate tons of players without it becoming a clusterfuck.

I've seen people say this but I can't say I agree.

Combat involving tons of players in the ones I've played (WoW (haven't played this one in a very long time), FFXIV, GW2) is a massive clusterfuck.

It more or less turns into a rave party with the only danger being unable to see the ground indicators because of all the special effects.

There's really no game that doesn't do this when the combat involves a mass amount of players unless maybe if it's something like Planetside. Combat in those games felt right only when you had a very large number of players, way beyond the normal group numbers that people play with in the other games I mentioned.

The MMO genre itself is in a bit of a stagnant slump. You have the larger ones that people mention all the time (WoW, GW2, FFXIV) but outside of that and a few more you just have more mobile MMO type games coming out. Bless Online came out a short while ago but you probably don't want to play that.

You might want to try checking out Black Desert Online OP.

Should warn that it's more PvP-centric than others.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,249
I have only played WoW and WoW clones. Do other combat systems allow the same kind of control and sophisticated encounter design?
Which MMO has the best encounters ever?
 

kennyamr

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,587
New York, NY, USA
Because the way MMO combat is right now in the most popular games like WoW and FFXIV is exactly what a lot of people come to MMO's for.

Skill management, learning a rotation, learning how to weave skills these things are what makes "MMO combat" fun. There isn't a "need" to evolve because there isn't a problem to be solved.
I get OP's point, but I have to totally agree with this.
I'm open minded for new types of gameplay, but to be honest, I kind of like the way FFXIV (or WoW) plays.
I've been playing for so long that if you ask me, I wouldn't like it to change.
Having said that, of course I'd try new styles of gameplay if they announce something new, but I think I'm pretty ok as it is now.

At least FFXIV is still increasing its player base year after year so it's good to know that there is still a big market for MMOs.
Some may say that the GCD is slow in FFXIV, but when you are at max level fighting a dungeon or raid boss, it is pretty hectic if you want to be good at your class. Making it any faster would make rotations too difficult to handle. The free actions you have at your disposal in between normal GDC actions keep up the pace at a high level at all times.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Yeah, that combat is cool, but has no place in MMOs.

You're supposed to crack things through research and coordination - and that type of combat is really not conductive to multi-role, large-scale PvE encounters.
 

Cragor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
51
Blade and Soul combat system its a mix of action and tab-target combat really, but the main perk of the system, its how its combos work. And here, if you really want to be good at it, you are going to need a hell of a lot of finesse wich goes way beyond the "are my cooldowns back up?". Playing a given class in blade and soul its easy enought, but playing it efficiently, oh boy, that can be tricky, so much in fact that people with certaing pings cant even play certain classes properly due to the loss of damage derived from not being able to chain enought hits per section of a given combo flow. Still, you are not going to see any of this until endgame, since the game has been streamlined to a point were, well, most mobs simply die of a heart-attack in front of the player as long as he is not ridiculously underleveled. But once you are there, were skill is requiered, or you try pvp, things start getting interesting. People practice the hell out of their classes with dummies in the game to test their combos for maximun dmg, at wich point no one is looking at cd´s any more, because you either know your class, or you simply cant compete. This may sound harsh, elitist event, but it isnt. It is the harsh reality the first blade and soul players in the west had to face when they hit the tower (what was, back then, end-game) and a certain bastard proceed to wipe the floor with everyone in a way it wasnt even funny. Every player at that point got there thinking "hey, i know how to play", got his/her ass handed to him/her and after realizing how hilariously unskilled they still were at using their characters, they either began to properly learn how to use their class, or simply retired/waited for the next expansion.

Leaving that aside, i think Black Desert Online is exactly what you are looking for combat wise. Pure action combat were very, very few skills(if any) actually use hotkeys, with combos executed throw key combinations akin to any fighting/pure action game, animation cancels, flow movementes used to literally cancel the charge time from certain skills to launch them instantly as part of a chain, etc, etc. Its fast and personally i find it quite beautifull with the fastest classes playing in a way that will make an overexcited wasp feel slow and clumsy. The problem, however, is the rest of the game is basically a giant sandbox and i have no way of knowing if you would like that or not.

Aside from that, you can always try other hub centric action mmos, like kritika, soul worker, closers or the like.
 

TimeFire

Avenger
Nov 26, 2017
9,625
Brazil
I never played Vindictus because I wasn't born in the right country and my country was ip blocked lol

Always thought it looked awesome.
 

Calabi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,682
I tried loads of MMO's and they only one I got into the furthest was Tera Online, because of this reason, it had the closest to action based combat. I dont know why an MMO doesnt just make it turn based I could tolerate that better than the button pressing waiting for cooldowns. Cooldowns are like the worst of all systems.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
I still believe MMO's really will not change until they begin to be truly massive in VR and said tech is more widespread/cheaper/more mainstream. With such tech the old ways of doing things in MMO's will fall out of favor and people will jump in to explore "large truly vast worlds" with a combat style that might be akin to Skyrim or games like Zelda.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
Are you asking why MMORPGs don't play like Bayonetta? Because MMORPGs are about grinding to get marginally better numbers and those marginally better numbers making the difference at the high end rather than being good at character action combat. This is the model that keeps people playing long hours for years. If every fight was a Platinum action game the pace and flow and social experience of an MMO wouldn't really work.
 

ADee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
963
Sweden
I still believe MMO's really will not change until they begin to be truly massive in VR and said tech is more widespread/cheaper/more mainstream. With such tech the old ways of doing things in MMO's will fall out of favor and people will jump in to explore "large truly vast worlds" with a combat style that might be akin to Skyrim or games like Zelda.
A combat system akin to Skyrim exists, it's called Elder Scrolls Online... and I don't really like it...

What I don't like about games with not tab targeting is that they usually remove the classic trinity (tank, dps and healer) I really love that mechanic and I hate games that doesn't utilize it, though I can't say why... Maybe because it makes group plays much more viable and engaging..
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,857
I never played Vindictus because I wasn't born in the right country and my country was ip blocked lol

Always thought it looked awesome.
I remember playing the game on a US VPN with my brother to get around Nexon's EU block back in 2011.

Was pretty ridiculous that they blocked a region that didn't even have access to the game until later.
 

Khezu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,983
For me personally, I would rather have tab targeting combat then mediocre action combat.

I'm trying to find the best way to say this, but with action based combat, I have to put a lot more effort into every generic random encounter and fight, which in an MMO is a shit ton. Makes the game seem more repetitive and kind of annoying.
With Tab Targeting, I can sorta zone out in most regular fights and and play seriously on fights that actually matter.

Typing that out makes it sound super weird, but for MMO's id rather just zone out and listen to a podcast or socialize or fill bars or w/e, and not actually pay attention to things.
 

Shoreu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,010
I haven't touched this game in years. What Mechanics are being "Managed" in this fight here? I watched the second video and saw a few things but compare it To a WoW encounter and it seems like much less is going on here.
 
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Cow Mengde

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,344
I remember playing the game on a US VPN with my brother to get around Nexon's EU block back in 2011.

Was pretty ridiculous that they blocked a region that didn't even have access to the game until later.

That's due to the game not having dedicated server. You connect peer-to-peer when you go into dungeons and raids. In a game where split second timing is crucial, lag can really ruin the experience. The funny thing is that lag plagued Vindictus throughout most of its life. This is why people are afraid to host run due to their connection not being good enough. So you either have to get good and solo, or you wait for someone brave enough to try to host a party. It got better as the game went on, but lag can never be 100% eliminated. So imagine how fun it would be if you connect to someone across the pond and having your actions delayed a split second.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,642
I tried loads of MMO's and they only one I got into the furthest was Tera Online, because of this reason, it had the closest to action based combat. I dont know why an MMO doesnt just make it turn based I could tolerate that better than the button pressing waiting for cooldowns. Cooldowns are like the worst of all systems.

That's a thought actually, why isn't there a semi-mainstream MMO that's turnbased? I know it's a bit out of fashion now but surely some developer out there would've thought to make an MMO based on exclusively the older final fantasy's/other jrpgs
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,497
I tried loads of MMO's and they only one I got into the furthest was Tera Online, because of this reason, it had the closest to action based combat. I dont know why an MMO doesnt just make it turn based I could tolerate that better than the button pressing waiting for cooldowns. Cooldowns are like the worst of all systems.

A turn based system would actually be pretty interesting. I had the same sort of thought when playing FFXIV mostly because it has probably the longest global cooldown time I've seen in an MMO (2.5s, some jobs like Ninja/Monk can go down to around 2.1s).

A turn based system with cross combos or elemental weakness or some kind of additional mechanic would have IMO been more interesting than just another tab target.
 
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OP
Cow Mengde

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,344
Leaving that aside, i think Black Desert Online is exactly what you are looking for combat wise. Pure action combat were very, very few skills(if any) actually use hotkeys, with combos executed throw key combinations akin to any fighting/pure action game, animation cancels, flow movementes used to literally cancel the charge time from certain skills to launch them instantly as part of a chain, etc, etc. Its fast and personally i find it quite beautifull with the fastest classes playing in a way that will make an overexcited wasp feel slow and clumsy. The problem, however, is the rest of the game is basically a giant sandbox and i have no way of knowing if you would like that or not.

I've heard good things about BDO. Right now I don't have a powerful enough PC to run it. Is it well optimized? Vindictus, while low on system requirements, is poorly optimized.

I don't mind a giant sandbox if the combat is good. The funny thing is, a sandbox game with good combat doesn't exist (unless BDO is that game).
 

kaisere

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,283
I've heard good things about BDO. Right now I don't have a powerful enough PC to run it. Is it well optimized? Vindictus, while low on system requirements, is poorly optimized.

I don't mind a giant sandbox if the combat is good. The funny thing is, a sandbox game with good combat doesn't exist (unless BDO is that game).

BDO is that game, it plays akin to a Platinum game. It's got a terrible grind though.
 

Fries

Member
Oct 25, 2017
561
BDO is that game, it plays akin to a Platinum game. It's got a terrible grind though.
I'd say BDO plays more like a musou. >.>

edit: There is a certain skill based element when you PvP or do some bosses but for the most part it was just trying to clear stuff fast and cheap while farming/grinding when I played it.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
From what I've seen of action oriented MMOs they tend to lack a lot of depth that games like WoW and even FFXIV have. There's little skill learning and strategy in dungeons, it's just a group rushing from enemy to enemy and bashing them. While it looks better and less janky they usually result in a very boring game to play.

Doesn't ESO get away from the normal MMO combat?

Yeah and it's god awful. It's way too close to normal elder scrolls combat which we all know the problems that has.
 
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Cow Mengde

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,344
Tiger Knight Empire War is unique, but VERY clunky to play. Plus, the game is kinda dead. Oh BTW, for people excusing Dynasty Warriors for having brainless troops, look at this game. At least the troops are actually fighting instead of just stand around.

I was so looking forward to Tiger Knights, but it turned out to be a dud. It is unique, I'll give it that.

 
Nov 4, 2017
2,203
Action combat kind of goes against the entire model of an MMO if you think about it. You want lots of people to play, but not everyone can play action games. You want to have tiers of rewards and powers usually associated with grinding and leveling up or obtaining gear, and that is negated with people who can ace action games without that stuff.
 

Manwell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
392
USA
I completely agree with OP that more MMO's need to come out that use action based combat. To people saying the style dosn't fit MMO's, well WoW does not define what all MMO's are. A talented team can design an MMO around a heavy action combat system, but it takes time, effort, and money which in the MMO market today is too risky.