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Is Kojima sama just not good at managing big games? (MGS5, Death Stranding)

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Segafreak

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An insider just dropped this info in the Silent Hill thread

Death Stranding was a flop. It sold well initially, but I've heard it has over 3 million unsold copies of what's been produced, but the sales kinda' slowed to a crawl and the game hasn't done as well as anyone involved has been hoping. Death Stranding was also originally supposed to be a very different game, a lot darker and more horror-esque, but around a year and a half before launch the development got soft rebooted. Sony and Kojima had some disagreements, and some other studios at Sony's Worldwide Studios were a bit upset at the money Kojima was getting for the game, along with disagreements lead to Death Stranding not ending up as a PS5 game and a sharper window for release even after the soft reboot. There's a looooot more here, but this is the part I'll share that's relevant.
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So Death Stranding seems to have had quite a troubling development and this is the first time we're hearing of it. Things got rebooted so late into the development, got way more expensive and angered the parent company Sony and its other studios, sound a bit familiar? I always thought Kojima was partly to blame for what happened with MGS5 and it seems he's repeating the things at Sony (spending too much money, bloated development etc). I don't doubt for a second the other studios are upset at the money drain that is Kojima, dude after all traveled to Europe (probably first class) just to announce his buddy Keighley was in his game and the piss mechanic. I think the diva status got to his head and he was just doing whatever he wants but seems he is losing that soon after delivering a bomba that cost so much money.

Death Stranding was definitely not a success, Sony always share sales milestones for their biggest games and they never did for DS and from sales trackers we know it was not a big hit. I was always there day one for his games and was mega hyped for DS, but that first gameplay trailer hit and the inability of Kojima to properly explain what game I had preordered just killed it for me.

After 2 troubled and bloated developments back to back though, companies will be thinking twice to ink a mega deal with Kojima, which is sad. Dude can make nice games but the last 2 MGS and DS just seem to be going all in on some extremity instead of being a nice, balanced game. Hopefully the insider can share more info about DS development and the relations with Sony.
 
Kyuuji

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the money drain that is Kojima, dude after all traveled to Europe (probably first class) just to announce his buddy Keighley was in his game and the piss mechanic. I think the diva status got to his head and he was just doing whatever he wants but seems he is losing that soon after delivering a bomba that cost so much money.
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Thread honestly just reads as an excuse to rant about Kojima or Death Stranding more than detail the topic of his management.

Segafreak said:
Dude can make nice games but the last 2 MGS and DS just seem to be going all in on some extremity instead of being a nice, balanced game.
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I'd rather Death Stranding and future games that explore gameplay mechanics and themes that might be more niche in appeal but offer experiences that are hard to find elsewhere. Especially with the budget and scope to realise it at that scale, and with Kojima and the KojiPro quirk to it.
 
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Deleted member 42641

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Who is this insider ? Why is he considered credible ?

I mean yea it is weird there are no sales figures with death stranding but I loved the game to death. I think it just matters on what we see next with kojima, if its another sony backed game than I think sony was probably pleased with DS
 
Soulflarz

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I mean, it's pretty obvious Death Stranding largely was popular BECAUSE it was a Kojima game, which means yeah, slower sales after launch.
 
Paquete_PT

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Death Stranding wasn't for all and yeah, it didn't sell as much as Sony or Kojima would like, but bad management wasn't a part of it. It is an incredible achievement how they managed to make it in such a short period (relatively to other games, special new IPs).
Personally it was my GOTY and one of the highlights of this gen
 
Nikus

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Yeah just thinly veiled excuse to shit on Kojima, lmao
Really nothing in the OP reads has a big troubled development. Many big games would love to have "troubled developments" like that. The tone of the game shifted? Oh my god, TROUBLE.
 
Rosebud

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Didn't he created a new studio and released a big AAA game in 3 years?
 
Cenauru

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It got rebooted into a game that people like...where's the problem?
 
packy17

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I'm tired of hearing the myth that Kojima either wasted money or mismanaged MGSV.

That game literally doubled its budget in revenue the day it went on sale.
 
Triggerhappytel

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Death Stranding was weird and esoteric. Not surprised that sales slowed right down after the initial spike, which was probably largely due to his name involved.

Kyuuji said:
Thread honestly just reads as an excuse to rant about Kojima or Death Stranding more than detail the topic of his management.
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Also this. We know very little about his actual management of staff/development, but considering so many people followed him from Konami to work at KojiPro 2016 it would suggest that he's not a bad manager and is in good stead with his employees.
 
NightShift

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La Flame Amiibo said:
Who is this insider ? Why is he considered credible ?

I mean yea it is weird there are no sales figures with death stranding but I loved the game to death. I think it just matters on what we see next with kojima, if its another sony backed game than I think sony was probably pleased with DS
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It was Dusk Golem. I don't know why the OP deleted the name.

Death Stranding is a game that did exactly what it set out to do within a good amount of development time though. The fault of the sales not reaching expectations should be put on Sony for putting so much money on a game with such a niche concept.
 
Bad_Boy

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I dont see the troubling development part.

I think maybe reading too far into things.
 
skeezx

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that's prolly BS

sony flipped him the coin to do whatever, DS could've been picross game for all they really "cared". they didn't go into the thing expecting a 10 million seller
 

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NightShift said:
It was Dusk Golem. I don't know why the OP deleted the name.

Death Stranding is a game that did exactly what it set out to do within a good amount of development time though. The fault of the sales not reaching expectations should be put on Sony for putting so much money on a game with such a niche concept.
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Part of me also wonders how much sony gains off of the death stranding hype, it just puts playstation and sony into peoples minds and did that for years. The advertising of the playstation brand might be worth it alone.
 
Mantrox

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So, in terms of sales, what are we talking about here?
It didn't break even? Didn't make as much profit as expected? What?

Kojima definitely seems like he sniffs his own glue a bit too much. I like his concepts but the execution is iffy sometimes.
Having said that, i did have a lot of fun with Death Stranding, flaws and all; and considering he had to build the studio as well as make the game, i would say his results are pretty good.
 
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MadMod

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MGS5 and DS are vastly different in size and resources. Kojima even said DS is pretty much an indie game haha. Most of it is procedural generation and you can tell where the budget stops within the actual game.
 
Rafako

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Nikus said:
Yeah just thinly veiled excuse to shit on Kojima, lmao
Really nothing in the OP reads has a big troubled development. Many big games would love to have "troubled developments" like that. The tone of the game shifted? Oh my god, TROUBLE.
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Exactly, he created a new studio a delivered the game in a little more than 3 years, how is that bad management?
Also the OP sounds bitter, like they were waiting for the opportunity to vent xD
 
Yippiekai

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MGS 5 was incomplete and yes, it was a Kojima problem. He wanted to put more in the game than feasible.
But Death Stranding? I don't think there is an issue with the game.

The reason Death Stranding didn't sell is that Kojima made the game he wanted without caring about if people wanted to play it or not. Is the game bad? No, not at all, I think it was the best game of last year and I saw a good number of people here thinking it too. But was it for everyone? Not in the slightest. And it's not a problem. If you start thinking sales is what define if a game is good or not, it's not.
 

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MadMod said:
MGS5 and DS are vastly different in size and resources. Kojima even said DS is pretty much an indie game haha. Most of it is procedural generation and you can tell where the budget stops within the actual game.
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"An indie game" compared to the $80 million MGS V budget? Sure, but still, it's an AAA game.

Rafako said:
Exactly, he created a new studio a delivered the game in a little more than 3 years, how is that bad management?
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You guys are ignoring everything that happened behind the scenes:

- Sony went in with deep pockets
- Engine was ready
- All the support from Sony teams such as Bend, Insomniac and GG.

If he did all this indipendently, 3 years were probably not enough to start pre-production.
Not saying this is bad management at all since i have yet to play DS, but Kojima had a lot of external help to build DS in 3 years.
 

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jesus. 3 million unsold copies? i thought it was only people on the internet who had unrealistic expectations.
 
Fujibayoshi

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Wow, that's kind of surprising. I enjoyed every second of Death Stranding, one of the best games of this generation. The game was quite polished when it was released and I don't even need all my ten fingers to count the bugs I had, that's how flawless it was. So, the news abot the troubling development and the reboot surprise me, indeed.
 
modiz

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He made a new AAA IP in 3 years under a new studio, if that is bad management I am not sure what good management is
 
_Karooo

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Mgs5 was fun as hell even though incomplete. Death stranding is completely forgettable. I actually feel sorry for Konami And Sony.
 
DeliciousSunnyD!

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It's a big budget, large scale game with a design focus that is primarily on passivity/traversing the environment in a shared social online context, and in that way it succeeded. I didn't finish it, but I still found the game brilliant. But it's totally understandable that it wouldn't really light the world on fire. I don't think it was meant to appeal to a super large, broad market. But maybe that's what the expectations for it were? I commend everyone involved working on it for the game they released though. It is, no doubt, bold at a large scale, which is awesome.

To me, the fact the game turned out as good as it did within the time frame it was conceptualized and then released, especially if big changes were made to the game about halfway through speaks 100% to the opposite of the premise of this thread: that he and his company are actually quite good at managing large scale games.

MGSV probably turned out the way that it did in large part to him and his people probably feeling creatively burned out and chained to the Metal Gear Solid intellectual property, I think.
 
FF Seraphim

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What I am wondering is how big was this game's budget. He delivered it within three years, what other Sony studio has delivered a new IP within 3 years? Eveh ND has had delays and money thrown at them to fix their games, so how much money was Kojima given that made everyone upset?
 
Yuntu

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The fact that the game is fully complete and beloved by many despite being completly out of the norm all within a 3 year timespan tells me is good at management tbh. Or rather he and whoever else manages that side of production.

Maybe Sony shouldnt have given him a blank check, but honestly the moment that was kinda indicated I assumed this would be a weird af game. Because thats just how Kojima is. I would be surprised if Sony never entertained that thought.
 

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FF Seraphim said:
What I am wondering is how big was this game's budget. He delivered it within three years, what other Sony studio has delivered a new IP within 3 years? Eveh ND has had delays and money thrown at them to fix their games, so how much money was Kojima given that made everyone upset?
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Hollywood actors don't come cheap
 
Prine

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I can't imagine Sony being happy with DS performance sales wise either, I don't think you can look at it in an other way.
 
Yuntu

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FF Seraphim said:
What I am wondering is how big was this game's budget. He delivered it within three years, what other Sony studio has delivered a new IP within 3 years? Eveh ND has had delays and money thrown at them to fix their games, so how much money was Kojima given that made everyone upset?
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I doubt its on ND level of budget, which I think is the highest within first party. But this stuff is really hard to guess without companies sharing that info.
 
Nightengale

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Death Stranding is one of the most ambitious and systematically interesting games in the past few years, even factoring in its cut corners.

Many established AAA studios with more in-house resources take longer to ship a smaller game than KojiPro did for DS, factoring in a lot of other factors like new studio and stuff.
 
Gemüsepizza

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I (mostly) liked Death Stranding, it's a good game from a technical perspective. I don't think it's mis-managed in any way. The biggest problem is that I don't think the IP has much mass-market appeal. I also fear that the rumored horror game won't be that successful because of the same reason

Imo Kojima should work on something similar to MGS, a modern AAA spy game with great graphics (+ maybe a few Hollywood actors) would certainly have much better sales potential tbh.
 
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ZeroX

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3 million unsold copies sounds like total bullshit to me

also MGSV was mismanaged, but nothing about DS screams mismanaged. it came out on a very quick timeframe and was extremely consistent with what was shown from the start.
 
Death Penalty

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Word of mouth on Death Stranding was pretty bad so I'm not surprised if it doesn't have the strongest legs. That comment doesn't paint a pretty picture tbh, but at the end of the day Death Stranding was developed and shipped in a decent amount of time on top of the creator and team establishing a new studio. So, there's good and bad to be said.
 
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