ScOULaris

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Oct 25, 2017
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There's one thing that has always stuck out to me when thinking about the differences between 2D platformers and 3D ones: a different emphasis on precision and difficulty.

I think it's fair to say that most 3D platformers tend to be relatively easy, by and large, with most of the actually challenging content being reserved for post-game completionist stuff. This is not generally the case with 2D platformers, especially in a post-masocore platformer world where indie platformers have no issue demanding the utmost precision from players. This divide is probably a result of a number of factors.

For starters, the added considerations of depth and camera control (or lack thereof) in 3D platformers make for more frustration upon failure. It's far easier to feel like the game cheated you or killed you unfairly in a 3D platformer than in a 2D one, as a general rule, because of these added elements that tend to be really hard to get right from a development standpoint. To work around the increased complexity of simply navigating a 3D environment filled with moving platforms and enemies, many 3D platformers allow the player character to take multiple hits before encountering a fail state. They also often provide ample opportunities to replenish said health points throughout the levels. This results in far fewer deaths on average than what a player will typically experience in an even moderately difficulty 2D platformer.

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2D platformers have increasingly bent toward highly precise, challenging designs in the last decade.

Secondly, the impact of Mario 64 on the genre cannot be understated. Mario 64 continued down the trajectory set forth by Super Mario World before it and tried to offer players a far more accessible and gentle difficulty curve than the original three NES Mario games did. It's clear that they wanted more people to be able to finish Mario games at that time, and that design philosophy combined with wanting to ease players into this new experience of platforming in 3D meant that hardcore, precision platforming challenge was not part of the template that Mario 64 established. And from there damn near every 3D platformer that followed took a page or ten out of Mario 64's book, right down to their general approach to difficulty.

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Mario 64 resonates through nearly every game in the genre that followed it, right down to its approachable difficulty.

This brings me to the subject of this thread: the Crash Bandicoot series.

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the Crash games, but I do respect the unique identity that they have among 3D platformers even to this day. The original Crash (PS1) represented a different approach to bringing platformers into a 3D plane than what Nintendo ended up doing with the sprawling, open areas of Mario 64. Crash was a more literal translation of 2D platforming level design into a z-axis perspective. You'd be going left to right sometimes, just like a 2D platformer, and then the rest of the time you were strictly going into or away from the background down tight, linear corridors of death. Ultimately, this stopgap style of platforming between 2D and 3D sensibilities wasn't the inspiration that other 3D platformers would run with in the future.



I just think this is an awesome trailer and wanted to share it.

This leaves the Crash games in a unique spot. I recently picked up Crash 4, and while it's certainly manageable I find myself dying ten times more often than I would in any other 3D platformers. Simply getting through a level with unlimited lives is reasonable enough, but there's no question that death comes swiftly and often in this game just like the originals. It doesn't always feel fair, mind you. Plenty of deaths come on the heels of a misjudged depth assessment due to the game's limiting behind-the-back camera angle at times or as a result of somewhat inconsistent hit detection. These issues are nowhere near as bad as they were in the Crash N. Sanity Trilogy, however. Crash 4 is immensely improved in that regard and feels much better to play.

I just find it interesting that as 3D platformers seem to be having something of a renaissance in recent years (which makes me very happy) the Crash games seem to be the only ones that bring the difficulty. They've remained true to the 2D/3D-hybrid nature of the original game way back in 1996, and that's pretty cool. Crash 4 still feels a little too clumsy and punishing to me at times, which keeps it from being among my favorites in the genre, but I do respect what Toys for Bob has done with it. It's a game that sticks to its roots despite all of its contemporaries walking a different path, and it does so with production values that you don't often see in a 3D platformer these days.

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What do you all think? Is Crash the hardest 3D platformer series around? Or does its pseudo-2.5D nature disqualify it from comparison against other games in the genre?
 
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Deleted member 23212

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Consistently? I have at least beat Crash Bandicoot 2 100%, Crash Warped I think is do-able too. Crash 1 is a pain though.
 

Deleted member 59109

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They definitely are the hardest 3D platformers I can think of, I don't think they're as impossible or unfair as people make them out to be though. To me the challenge is a good thing, I think the platforming is more engaging than most other platformers.

I will say though that the completion stuff seems over the top. But the main games themselves are totally fun/doable for me.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
4,627
great OP and crash 4 is insanely difficult for a new mainline installment in a hugely popular platformer series. to even think of 100%ing it is bonkers. i feel like the difficulty of 2 and 3 relaxed a bit from 1, though.
 

DazzlerIE

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm playing through Crash 1 right now and I can only do one level per day at most because it's so frustrating
 
Oct 31, 2017
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Yes, if we are talking about Crash Bandicoot 1 - 4. And the series' "pseudo-2.5D" (they are linear 3D games) is why it's probably the actual best translation of the platforming genre from 2D to 3D because of its focus on movement and jump precision.

The only other 3D platforming games that come close to translating the real platforming feeling from 2D to 3D are Super Mario 3D Land/World.
 

Deleted member 59109

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Yes, if we are talking about Crash Bandicoot 1 - 4. And the series' "pseudo-2.5D" (they are linear 3D games) is why it's probably the actual best translation of the platforming genre from 2D to 3D because of its focus on movement and jump precision.

The only other 3D platforming games that come close to translating the real platforming feeling from 2D to 3D are Super Mario 3D Land/World.

I think Pac Man World 2 and maybe Sly 1 are also 3D platformers with a good amount of precise platforming
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,627
Yes, if we are talking about Crash Bandicoot 1 - 4. And the series' "pseudo-2.5D" (they are linear 3D games) is why it's probably the actual best translation of the platforming genre from 2D to 3D because of its focus on movement and jump precision.

The only other 3D platforming games that come close to translating the real platforming feeling from 2D to 3D are Super Mario 3D Land/World.
ugh wanna play super mario 3d land again

prep for the 3d world next month!
 

Spring-Loaded

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Oct 27, 2017
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Yeah, and it's because of the focus on obstacle course platforming + a 2D Mario-like health system (1-hit death, 2-to-3-hit with powerups). Even the worse Crash games have a general focus on platforming and obstacle courses, rather than just collecting stuff in open areas. The linear levels make it so that enemies aren't as easily avoidable as they are in games like Banjo-Kazooie or Mario 64 where the player's moveset mostly trivialises their presence.

Most every 3D platformer series or sub-series is built as a collectathon, without a focus on platforming challenge—can't speak to one-off 3D platformers like A Hat in Time or Poi, however.

Super Mario 3D World is absolutely a contender for being a more direct translation of 2D Mario into 3D, but until you get past Bowser, barely any of it feels design feels like it's meant to be challenging first and foremost. It's most just engaging and fun, but late/post-game definitely gets into hard territory.

Even ignoring the arcane save system in the original Crash 1, it's core design is much more demanding than even its 2D platformer contemporaries, especially when going for all crates—the "crate bridge" in the first level of Crash 1 is testament to that. Crash 2 balanced things out more, but it's still pretty challenging, and Crash 3 became easy to complete, but they're still really challenging to 100%.

Crash 4 ... it solidifies the series as one of the most difficult of its type.
 

aceldama

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Jun 8, 2019
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Chrash 1 is very hard. Crash 3 is very easy. Crash 2 is somewhere inbetween. It's bemusing that the internet has got this idea that being difficult is a defining part of Crash.
 

Lant_War

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Jul 14, 2018
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I don't know to be honest, I find the difficulty of 2 and particularly 3 to be greatly exaggerated since the NST's release, there's some precise platforming but like... nothing is particularly tricky or unfair? There's never any hidden obstacles or stuff you would only know by trial and error, if you're patient you can definitely beat any level without dying. Crash 4 is definitely tough though.
 
Oct 28, 2017
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Your OP is very odd considering Mario 64 is ten times harder than any Crash game, both for basic completion and 100%(other than Crash 4, which I can only assume is the reason this thread was made).
 
Oct 28, 2017
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Chrash 1 is very hard. Crash 3 is very easy. Crash 2 is somewhere inbetween. It's bemusing that the internet has got this idea that being difficult is a defining part of Crash.
It's caused only by how fucked up the Crash remakes were. The Nsane Trilogy warped the perception of the series. They essentially broke the game creating artificial difficulty that didn't exist before, and this led people to believe it's what the series always was.

Then with Crash 4 the devs actually ran with this perception and made a genuinely tough Crash game. The first genuinely tough Crash game.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,951
No, not really.
Both Crash 1 and Crash 4 are certainly more challenging than the average 3D platformer, but Crash 2 and (especially) 3 are notably easy games with a difficulty similar to that of Mario Galaxy.
And the post-Naughty Dog 2000s-era Crash platformers are also all pretty darn easy as well, with Twinsanity somehow being even easier than Crash 3.
Crash 1 and Crash 4 are basically outliers in regards to challenge.
 

Aurora

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Jul 22, 2018
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The general consensus is that 3<2<1 in terms of difficulty and I don't recall the original CTR being considered difficult pre remake-era, so I really don't understand difficulty being held up as the main reason the franchise (or at least the ND titles) has endured for as long as they have. If Naughty Dog themselves made the titles easier as they went along, I don't know if Crash 4 being the most difficult game in the franchise was the most logical conclusion to take. It

It's caused only by how fucked up the Crash remakes were. The Nsane Trilogy warped the perception of the series. They essentially broke the game creating artificial difficulty that didn't exist before, and this led people to believe it's what the series always was.

Then with Crash 4 the devs actually ran with this perception and made a genuinely tough Crash game. The first genuinely tough Crash game.

This is what bugs me: there are some genuinely challenging sections in all three games but "the bridge levels" always crop up to characterise these games as being exceptionally difficult even though Crash 1 is the weakest title in the trilogy (and I love Crash 1), and it's documented that the physics have been altered in the NST.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,904
No, not really.
Both Crash 1 and Crash 4 are certainly more challenging than the average 3D platformer, but Crash 2 and (especially) 3 are notably easy games.
And the post-Naughty Dog 2000s-era Crash platformers are also all pretty darn easy as well, with Twinsanity somehow being even easier than Crash 3.
Crash 1 and Crash 4 are basically outliers in regards to challenge.
I would actually argue that the post Naughty Dog Crash games are harder than the original trilogy. Never played the Titans games I'm just talking about WOC and Twinsanity. Twinsanity had some damn tough parts to it I'd 100% say it's harder than any Crash game besides 4. It wasn't a "hard" game or one you would define by its difficulty. But it was certainly a notch above the Naughty Dog games in that regard.
 

Border

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Oct 25, 2017
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Crash only seems hard if you are trying to get 100%. Most of the levels seem pretty straightforward and forgiving otherwise.
 

EggmaniMN

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Random older 3D platformers like Jersey Devil were definitely more difficult. Probably because they were just worse and less precise.

Crash 4 is definitely not difficult to actually get to the end credits in though. There are annoying segments but it's so quick and easy to retry that there's no reason to really get blocked for more than a couple minutes. Crash 1 is still the hardest of the series and the rest are just whatever.
 

zyvorg

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Oct 25, 2017
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Uff I'm glad it's not just me, I'm currently getting through nsane collection and while I know it would fundamentally change the game, I wish there was a way to disable the game overs. They would be so much fun like that.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,904
Crash only seems hard if you are trying to get 100%. Most of the levels seem pretty straightforward and forgiving otherwise.
Exactly. The only particularly dificult levels in Crash 1 going for 100% notwithstanding, are the really late game ones. Slippery Climb and The Lab are about as hard as it gets, and really they're far from among the toughest levels you'll see in a 3D platformer.

The remake is a different story. The way they fucked High Road in particular changes everything, and it aint for the better.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,951
Tbh I don't find any of them hard and feel like the difficulty is over exaggerated.
I feel like the difficulty of Crash 4 in particular has become over exaggerated as the months pass by. I think it's certainly challenging relative to its contemporaries but it is more than manageable.
I would actually argue that the post Naughty Dog Crash games are harder than the original trilogy. Never played the Titans games I'm just talking about WOC and Twinsanity. Twinsanity had some damn tough parts to it I'd 100% say it's harder than any Crash game besides 4. It wasn't a "hard" game or one you would define by its difficulty. But it was certainly a notch above the Naughty Dog games in that regard.
Well I'm mainly talking about the required main story/vanilla platforming run here. In that regard Wrath, Titans, and Mutant feel about as difficult as Crash 2 to me, they're largely breezy experiences. And imo the only truly challenging part Twinsanity's main story/vanilla platforming path is the Walrus chase sequence.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,904
I feel like the difficulty of Crash 4 in particular has become over exaggerated as the months pass by. I think it's certainly challenging relative to its contemporaries but it is more than manageable.

Well I'm mainly talking about the required main story/vanilla platforming run here. In that regard Wrath, Titans, and Mutant feel about as difficult as Crash 2 to me, they're largely breezy experiences. And imo the only truly challenging part Twinsanity's main story/vanilla platforming path is the Walrus chase sequence.
Nah disagree Twinsanity had some tough boss sequences, some of the Nina sections were quite hard and the late game stuff in general could be quite challenging. I had a tougher time with Twinsanity than the previous games for sure.

And with that said I'll take this time as I always do in these threada to sing Twinsanity's praises. Not the most polished Crash game but boy do I love it. Most underrated Crash game for sure. A bit more polish and tightened controls would make it the best in the series for me.
 

Parthenios

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Oct 28, 2017
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I've only played the first Crash Bandicoot (once as a kid and again in the trilogy on Switch), but I'd describe it more as "poorly designed" than "challenging."

It's pretty janky and that was the cause of most of most of my deaths, like one of the lesser 3D Sonic games.
 

GamerJM

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Nov 8, 2017
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Vexx is the hardest 3D platformer I can think of, but I imagine there have to be other harder ones
 

PeakPointMatrix

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Nah disagree Twinsanity had some tough boss sequences, some of the Nina sections were quite hard and the late game stuff in general could be quite challenging. I had a tougher time with Twinsanity than the previous games for sure.

And with that said I'll take this time as I always do in these threada to sing Twinsanity's praises. Not the most polished Crash game but boy do I love it. Most underrated Crash game for sure. A bit more polish and tightened controls would make it the best in the series for me.
Oof, I mean I adore Twinsanity, but it has to be the easiest Crash games I've played to date, with Crash 3 a close second. Getting a 100% is a must if I want to play it longer than the 5-6 hours it takes to beat the main campaign.

That said, I'm happy that many found Crash 4's brutal difficulty enjoyable, but they went way too far for me. It's the first Crash game I genuinely had to make the decision never to 100%, I just don't have that kind of time anymore. The devs leaned into that "Dark Souls" meme hard, and I worry that such a high difficulty for just the base campaign may have kneecapped the accessibility for the general audience limiting the numbers it sorely needs for another installment.