Imagining Perfect Dark as a Gamecube launch title

[YolkFolk]

Do you think it would have had much of an impact on the perception or success of the console? Whether as a cancelled N64 release ala Star Fox Adventures, or as a remaster.

The game pushed the N64 to its absolute limit, meaning the game was feature packed and graphically great, but performance suffered as a result. Seeing Perfect Dark at 480p/60fps on Gamecube launch would have been fantastic and certainly would have been a huge step up from what we saw on the N64.

Having that Goldeneye-like 4 player split screen multiplayer shooter at the Gamecube launch may also have stopped a lot of FPS fans moving over to the Xbox for Halo. Since Perfect Dark came out so late in the N64's life a lot of people who loved Goldeneye so much had already moved on, and a Gamecube release would also have been an opportunity for these gamers to play it for the first time.

I guess at the time, Nintendo/Rare would have wanted to deliver the game to that remaining Goldeneye audience they had built on the N64 and remasters weren't quite as popular or regular as they are today. There likely would have been complaints that the Gamecube's biggest launch game was just a repackaged old game.

Would you have liked an upgraded Perfect Dark on the Gamecube?

 

[Cybersai]

If it was delayed a year from 2000 to 2001, it definitely could of turned things around.

The PS2 was an unstoppable monster, but Perfect Dark competing with Halo in 2001 could have theoretically pushed Gamecube further especially if it had proper online.

 

[jack_package_200]

Nintendo should have bought Rare when they had the chance.

 

[Skel1ingt0n]

I think it was 100% depends on how it would have controlled via dual-stick. I believe Halo CE arguably still has the absolute best feeling twin-stick FPS controls ever, even 15+ years later.

I definitely believe it could have changed things around for Nintendo - but the Gamecube's lack of success had much more to blame than just not having a mature FPS available around launch. Plus, I really don't think - even if Perfect Dark had been massively successful - we would have ever seen Nintendo take online seriously, which means Halo 2 would have eventually ate its lunch, regardless.

 

[Mcjmetroid]

I believe even at that point many of the original Perfect Dark/Goldeneye team had left to form Free Radical Design which made the Timesplitters series. I know Timesplitters 1 was out at that point. So with Rare's most experienced FPS talent gone it probably would have been a perfect Dark 0 before 0 and 0 didn't do much for the 360 launch.

But hypothetically if it was JUST as good or better than the N64 original. It's possible it could have had a small impact.

 

[Nosgotham]

Nintendo should have bought Rare when they had the chance.

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Joke post? Rare was a sinking ship

 

[Owarifin]

Yeah, would have been a good Gamecube launch release.
I enjoyed it more than Halo.

 

[Spine Crawler]

gamecubes main problem was that it was too similar to the competition. so i do not think that it would have changed much.

 

[Deleted member 4372]

OP how did i not already think this. they could have had it running at 60fps easily, too

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Joke post? Rare was a sinking ship

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Yeah, there's a biiiiiiig reason why they didn't buy them.

 

[daTRUballin]

I've always wondered how things would've been like if both Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day ended up as GameCube launch titles. I actually made a thread back on GAF where I provided more details on why this would've been a great idea for Nintendo and Rare. I think these games could've given the GC more credibility with an older audience and might've shaved off some of the "kiddy" stigma the console had at the time, and if these games were a success, I'm sure Nintendo would've fought harder to keep Rare around.

Nintendo should have bought Rare when they had the chance.

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Absolutely agree. I've never understood why many other gamers think they shouldn't have kept the studio.

 

[Betty]

Joke post? Rare was a sinking ship

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At least they'd have the franchises though.

 

[daTRUballin]

Joke post? Rare was a sinking ship

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How so? I'd love to hear your reasoning.

 

[skeezx]

anecdotal but most of my friends i played goldeneye with moved onto Halo. so there could be something to this

 

[jack_package_200]

Joke post? Rare was a sinking ship

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They'd own Banjo and Perfect Dark.

Rare had a huge presence on the 64.

 

[brain_stew]

Putting Perfect Dark in direct comparison with Halo wasn't going to do it any favours. The leap from N64 era FPS to Halo was gigantic.

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

How so? I'd love to hear your reasoning.

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Grabbed by the Ghoulies?
Kameo?
PDZ?

 

[Deleted member 14002]

No. The C-stick would've been shut for aiming.

 

[Nairume]

Though I absolutely prefer the kind of shooter PD is (and thus went with Timesplitters as my shooter series of choice during that gen), a nicer looking and better running Perfect Dark still wouldn't have been able to hold a candle to what Halo was doing to actually draw people over to it.

That said, as nice as it being held over for the GC would have been, I get the feeling that it would have required that they go back and redo enough of the game that they'd fall into the same trap of development hell that PDZ itself ended up in.

 

[daTRUballin]

Grabbed by the Ghoulies?
Kameo?
PDZ?

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You're listing games that were released under Microsoft's ownership and games that had to change consoles multiple times in the case of PDZ and Kameo.

 

[Nairume]

You're listing games that were released under Microsoft's ownership and games that had to change consoles multiple times in the case of PDZ and Kameo.

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Regardless of their development issues, they all have significant design issues that suggest that make it clear that Rare was declining and was no longer going to be the studio they were during the 64 days.

 

[Inugami]

They'd own Banjo and Perfect Dark.

Rare had a huge presence on the 64.

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Which of those franchises are relevant today?

 

[Dooble]

Grabbed by the Ghoulies?
Kameo?
PDZ?

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It's not like Nintendo has spend it's money only on excellent games. Starfox Adventures was a far better polished game than Starfox Assault. Other less than stellar Gamecube games were Chibi Robo, Odama, Geist, Battalion Wars or Kirby Air Ride.

 

[jack_package_200]

Which of those franchises are relevant today?

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They would have been relevant at the time and who knows, they might have been still relevant had Nintendo owned them.

Nintendo could let other studios they own or work with make games using those Rare ips.

 

[Deleted member 4359]

Regardless of their development issues, they all have significant design issues that suggest that make it clear that Rare was declining and was no longer going to be the studio they were during the 64 days.

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This basically.

Rare was losing staff regardless of the buyout or not - Kameo and PDZ and the whole "Rare lost after Microsoft bought" wouldn't really have changed their timeline other than finishing Donkey Kong Racing, with that said the studio didn't even get bad, they just ended their run.

 

[DiK4]

GameCube launching with Smash, Conker, Perfect Dark, Star Wars, Pikmin, Wave Race, and Luigi's Mansion would have been insane.

 

[Infamous Hawk]

gd it...

 

[daTRUballin]

Regardless of their development issues, they all have significant design issues that suggest that make it clear that Rare was declining and was no longer going to be the studio they were during the 64 days.

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That's quite an assumption to make.

In the end, we don't know how things would've turned out if Nintendo had published and released these games on the GC. Whenever people point to all the games Rare released on Xbox consoles as "proof" that Nintendo was right to sell them off, I always can't help but feel it's a really flawed argument that misses the big picture.

Think of it this way: Remember how much of a disaster Retro Studios was during the Jeff Spangenberg days? Remember how Nintendo bought them and managed to fully turn the studio around?

Why should we assume Nintendo wouldn't have been able to salvage Rare? Nintendo is known to have a knack for quality control and stellar studio management. Just compare how Rare flourished under Nintendo's control to how much they floundered under Microsoft's. Should we not assume they would've continued to flourish under Nintendo?

 

[Dooble]

Nintendo never messed with Rare outside of Donkey Kong Country. Rare would have benefitted from simply more sales and thus continue to make more games. They also woudn't get in thought process of not doing a Banjo platformer because of the Xbox audience. Viva Pinata would have flourished on the Wii.

 

[Deleted member 4067]

Grabbed by the Ghoulies?
Kameo?
PDZ?

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Viva Pinata is a top tier Rare game

 

[Deleted member 4359]

That's quite an assumption to make.

In the end, we don't know how things would've turned out if Nintendo had published and released these games on the GC. Whenever people point to all the games Rare released on Xbox consoles as "proof" that Nintendo was right to sell them off, I always can't help but feel it's a really flawed argument that misses the big picture.

Think of it this way: Remember how much of a disaster Retro Studios was during the Jeff Spangenberg days? Remember how Nintendo bought them and managed to fully turn the studio around?

Why should we assume Nintendo wouldn't have been able to salvage Rare? Nintendo is known to have a knack for quality control and stellar studio management.

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Since when was Rare ever a disaster since the NES days?

 

[Clov]

This would have been fantastic. Would have made the Gamecube's launch period even better, and given Nintendo a game that could really compete with Halo. It would have made the game itself much better too; I love Perfect Dark, but in four player multiplayer the framerate took a huge hit. Who knows; if that happened and was successful enough, maybe Nintendo would still own Rare today. Given everything that was going on at the time though, it's a bit doubtful.

Honestly, as much as I personally would have loved for Nintendo to buy Rare, it probably didn't make much sense for Nintendo at the time. Apparently their games were getting more and more expensive to make. It might have been more worth it for them to have invested in Free Radical; though it's a bit late for that now, too.

 

[Nairume]

Why should we assume Nintendo wouldn't have been able to salvage Rare? Nintendo is known to have a knack for quality control and stellar studio management.

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It's an easy assumption because they were in the position to do so for years. If the problems with Rare were easily solvable like they were with Retro, Nintendo would have stuck around with them like they did with Retro.

I always can't help but feel it's a really flawed argument that missed the big picture.

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Then would you care to explain how it misses the big picture? As it stands, you are handwaving away very visible evidence that Rare's output was going dramatically downhill based on what they released shortly after their buyout (and based on what they put out shortly before it).

And if you really must ignore what they released after the buyout, you can still see them declining while they were with Nintendo. Their final years saw PD and Banjo Tooie, sure, but they also saw some very high profile failures in DK64 and Star Fox Adventures, an unnecessary lightning rod for controversy in Banjo, an interesting but ultimately clunky mess in JFG. Also Mickey's Speedway and some very unnotable gameboy titles. It's a far cry from when they were wowing the public in the late SNES era with their technical prowess and they were carrying the N64 in its early years with a stream of classics (including on genre defining legend). Like it or not, Rare was floundering.

 

[daTRUballin]

Since when was Rare ever a disaster since the NES days?

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That's not what I was implying. I was just pointing to an example of a studio with grave internal issues that Nintendo bought and managed to turn into a quality studio. I'm just saying that if Nintendo was able to turn a relatively no-name studio like Retro into the studio we know it as today, why should we assume Nintendo wouldn't have been able to nurture Rare?

 

[Dooble]

Then would you care to explain how it misses the big picture? As it stands, you are handwaving away very visible evidence that Rare's output was going dramatically downhill based on what they released shortly after their buyout (and based on what they put out shortly before it).

And if you really must ignore what they released after the buyout, you can still see them declining while they were with Nintendo. Their final years saw PD and Banjo Tooie, sure, but they also saw some very high profile failures in DK64 and Star Fox Adventures, an unnecessary lightning rod for controversy in Banjo, an interesting but ultimately clunky mess in JFG. Also Mickey's Speedway and some very unnotable gameboy titles. It's a far cry from when they were wowing the public in the late SNES era with their technical prowess and they were carrying the N64 in its early years with a stream of classics (including on genre defining legend). Like it or not, Rare was floundering.

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DK64 sold a bunch and so did Starfox Adventures, far form high rate failures. The quality of the games were barely the reason why they let go of Rare. Nintendo just invested more into Japanese developers, and let alot of the rest go away.

 

[Deleted member 4359]

That's not what I was implying. I was just pointing to an example of a studio with grave internal issues that Nintendo bought and managed to turn into a quality studio. I'm just saying that if Nintendo was able to turn a relatively no-name studio like Retro into the studio we know it as today, why should we assume Nintendo wouldn't have been able to nurture Rare?

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I'd be confident but you have devs like nd cube and Artoon who basically put out the same mid tier games for over a decade, so Retro seems to be a one off here.

 

[King of FeatherCoin]

Perfect Dark Zero was still a really good game in it's own right though.

 

[ShinUltramanJ]

I don't know that it would've been a game changing impact. The GameCube in my eyes already had a stellar launch, with Rogue Squadron being (in my eyes) a bigger draw then PD. Especially given the amazing visuals for its time.

 

[InASnowBoundLand]

You may not like DK64, and I don't like it much either, but it was far from a failure. It sold tons. And it was received well, back then. I'm pretty sure SF Adventuers sold well, too. So I don't know what you define as failure. I don't think they were going downhill at all.

I personally would have loved to have seen Rare continue with Nintendo. The thread is about PD, but I am sad that we never got the DK Racing game with all the animal buddies. A game like Viva Pinata on the Wii would have been so popular. Their absence was felt. And to be honest, it still sort of lingers.

 

[Zero83]

No Perfect Dark on N64 would have seriously pissed me off. It was by far my most anticipated game ever, so a delay and cancellation of that version would have been a great, great disappointment for me. It ended up a fantastic N64 game anyway and it's still probably my favourite game.

I haven't revisited it since probably 2001/02, and I'm sure it (the original release) hasn't aged all that well considering the frame rate issues. A GameCube port with added graphical fidelity and online play would have been utterly fantastic though. I was never a fan of Halo.

The GameCube launched with some really good games anyway, though it lacked the killer app that the N64 and original Xbox had.
Still way better than the PS2, but that console was getting amazing games left and right when the GC launced.

GameCube may have had the phenomenal TimeSplitters 2, but Xbox overtaking the N64 as the console FPS machine was disappointing for me as a Nintendo fan.

 

[Conor419]

Joke post? Rare was a sinking ship

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I don't think this is true, Rare's output in those years was nothing short of incredible, also Viva Piñata released shortly after and was nothing short of incredible. They survived under Microsoft — they absolutely could have survived (and prospered) under Nintendo.

Imo, Nintendo still haven't recovered from losing them.

 

[Nairume]

You may not like DK64, and I don't like it much either, but it was far from a failure. It sold tons. And it was received well, back then.

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It sold less than anticipated (especially considering it was supposed to be the 64's big holiday game for the year) and, despite reviewing better than people (myself included) remembered, it was still a drop in critical and fan reception enough to contribute to yet another mass exodus of talent that Rare had been suffering over the past several years.

I'm pretty sure SF Adventuers sold well, too. So I don't know what you define as failure.

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It was at 1.2 million as of 2006, which is a massive decline from what that type of Rare game used to pull in.

 

[The Almighty Tria]

I don't think this is true, Rare's output in those years was nothing short of incredible, also Viva Piñata released shortly after and was nothing short of incredible. They survived under Microsoft — they absolutely could have survived (and prospered) under Nintendo.

Imo, Nintendo still haven't recovered from losing them.

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What's there to recover from losing them? I don't understand, because all of the genres Rare worked on has been surpassed by Nintendo besides the FPS genre.

 

[HumanRevolution]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJD4wexCQ1I

I was like, damn this is gonna be awesome... Life can be cruel

It would have been a great answer to Halo. PD64's MP was awesome.

 

[The Boat]

 

[Deleted member 4359]

You may not like DK64, and I don't like it much either, but it was far from a failure. It sold tons. And it was received well, back then. I'm pretty sure SF Adventuers sold well, too. So I don't know what you define as failure. I don't think they were going downhill at all.

I personally would have loved to have seen Rare continue with Nintendo. The thread is about PD, but I am sad that we never got the DK Racing game with all the animal buddies. A game like Viva Pinata on the Wii would have been so popular. Their absence was felt. And to be honest, it still sort of lingers.

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Even if they did sell well - using that would essentially say that Rare basically fell off for a few years, and ended up selling about what they were in their last few years at Nintendo save for Donkey Kong if not more from 2010-2011.

 

[daTRUballin]

It's an easy assumption because they were in the position to do so for years. If the problems with Rare were easily solvable like they were with Retro, Nintendo would have stuck around with them like they did with Retro.

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But Rare has seemingly never faced the same kinds of problems Retro has faced and never to the same extent. Unless you have evidence that things were just as bad at Rare as they were at Retro. I find it hard to believe that Nintendo let them go because they wouldn't have been able to handle any smaller scale complications with Rare.

I honestly think it's because MS offered so much money. Nobody's going to say no to 375 million dollars.

Then would you care to explain how it misses the big picture? As it stands, you are handwaving away very visible evidence that Rare's output was going dramatically downhill based on what they released shortly after their buyout (and based on what they put out shortly before it).

And if you really must ignore what they released after the buyout, you can still see them declining while they were with Nintendo. Their final years saw PD and Banjo Tooie, sure, but they also saw some very high profile failures in DK64 and Star Fox Adventures, an unnecessary lightning rod for controversy in Banjo, an interesting but ultimately clunky mess in JFG. Also Mickey's Speedway and some very unnotable gameboy titles. It's a far cry from when they were wowing the public in the late SNES era with their technical prowess and they were carrying the N64 in its early years with a stream of classics (including on genre defining legend). Like it or not, Rare was floundering.

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Does that mean Nintendo should've sold Rare to Sega when they released the disappointing (compared to DKC1 and 2) DKC3 in 1996? Or when they released the commercially unsuccessful Blast Corps in 1997? Great game companies release underwhelming games sometimes. It happens. DK64 still sold like 5 million units and sold even more than Banjo did. No matter what you think of the game, you can't say it was unsuccessful. Mickey's Speedway was a rushed licensed product. They continued releasing great games like Banjo Tooie, Perfect Dark and Conker in the latter years of the N64, even if they didn't sell as well as previous games. But what did you expect from games released when the N64 was a dying system?

Not giving Rare a fair shake on the GameCube and selling them after just one disappointing game (a game that still sold a million units, mind you) seems short sighted to me. The games they went on to release under Microsoft shouldn't be any indication of anything considering they were under a completely different company's ownership then. Unless you believe Rare would've been releasing Wii Sports sequels under Nintendo or something.

Also, what does the bolded even mean?

 

[Conor419]

What's there to recover from losing them? I don't understand, because all of the genres Rare worked on has been surpassed by Nintendo besides the FPS genre.

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Well, Rare were like the competent partner that, without fuss, did all of the things that Nintendo fans wanted that EAD would never do themselves. First person shooters with huge western licenses, stealth games, platformers and racing games that more than competed with Mario, fighting games, third person shooters, action games, games targeted at older people, games targeted at western audiences, even complete reimaginings of Nintendo IP (Starfox adventures).

I'll say it again, Nintendo have not recovered from losing Rare.

 

[daTRUballin]

It sold less than anticipated (especially considering it was supposed to be the 64's big holiday game for the year) and, despite reviewing better than people (myself included) remembered, it was still a drop in critical and fan reception enough to contribute to yet another mass exodus of talent that Rare had been suffering over the past several years.


It was at 1.2 million as of 2006, which is a massive decline from what that type of Rare game used to pull in.

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Where do you get all this information from? DK64 didn't cause any mass exodus of talent. Like, what? This is literally the first time I'm hearing anything like this.

 

[Dr. Caroll]

Back in those days, moving from one platform to another was a huge undertaking. There was a huge risk that Perfect Dark would have gotten bogged down retooling it for Gamecube. And there's a risk that Rare would have started making mistakes as many of their peers did. Those brilliant design touches in PD were at risk of being lost. Kinda like how Turok: Evolution and TimeSplitters forgot what weapon wheels were for some reason.

Another thing. Perfect Dark was never going to compete with Halo. They're a completely different genre. You may as well ask whether Hitman can compete with Uncharted. Or whether Splinter Cell can compete with Gears of War. Perfect Dark is a spy game. Its design successors tend to be spy games. (Including stuff like Nightfire, which had an overt homage to the first level of Perfect Dark.)

I believe even at that point many of the original Perfect Dark/Goldeneye team had left to form Free Radical Design which made the Timesplitters series.

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This is incorrect. The Free Radical developers left during Perfect Dark's development. Martin Hollis, the director of GoldenEye and the original director of Perfect Dark left to work on the Gamecube. Perfect Dark, as we received it, was largely made by people who didn't work on GoldenEye, particularly since it was rebooted after Hollis departed.

No. The C-stick would've been shit for aiming.

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The C-stick wasn't great but it ultimately worked okay for the dual analogue FPS games on the Gamecube, of which there were quite a few.

And if you really must ignore what they released after the buyout, you can still see them declining while they were with Nintendo. Their final years saw PD and Banjo Tooie, sure, but they also saw some very high profile failures in DK64 and Star Fox Adventures

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What are you talking about? DK64 sold millions. It was near-universally acclaimed. Star Fox Adventures was essentially screwed over by the Gamecube transition and the Star Fox branding, which involved removing a lot of content. Basically half of the game -- everything involving Krystal -- was removed. The final game is still pretty good, and it garnered decent reviews, but it would have been better as Dinosaur Planet.

an unnecessary lightning rod for controversy in Banjo

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Nuts & Bolts was successful. And Rare never cared about controversy.

an interesting but ultimately clunky mess in JFG.

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Jet Force Gemini was also extremely successful.

Like it or not, Rare was floundering.

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They weren't. The problem with Rare was a few factors. The biggest one was game development costs. Nintendo wasn't giving them more money. Microsoft had been approaching Rare with offers to buy them since early 2000. Before the release of Perfect Dark. Almost two years before the release of Conker. (And by the way, Conker while it didn't sell super well it was a critical darling and if Seavor's remarks are to be believed it might have sold around a million copies.)

The issue with Rare was never Microsoft or Nintendo. The issue was the Stampers leaving. That changed the company. Also, the fact that games started costing more and more to make meant that Rare's classic design approaches weren't holding up anymore.