I'm convinced mobile app develpers update apps just to get your attention

[Deleted member 3345]

If you release a game on the China App Store, you need to translate your update notes into Chinese. That's why he says it costs money to translate the updates.

Click to shrink...

Ok?

BIG EXPENSIVE TRANSLATE PROJECT

Changelog: Translations.

I'm sure that cost less than the translate project.

I know you have to jump in and comment on everything related to china and apps, but providing a changelog that's less than a twitter length for language changes is quite the battle to be fighting.

 

[Deleted member 9399]

On the other extreme I hate when developers bury patch notes in a super long/cutesy written update. Corporations trying to be twee is something else.

 

[numble]

Ok?

BIG EXPENSIVE TRANSLATE PROJECT

Changelog: Translations.

I'm sure that cost less than the translate project.

I know you have to jump in and comment on everything related to china and apps, but providing a changelog that's less than a twitter length for language changes is quite the battle to be fighting.

Click to shrink...

The changelog needs to be translated. See below:

Most big apps you see updated all the time are written to be used in hundreds of countries and tens of different languages.

Patch notes should be translated for every one of those languages - sure you don't need to, but if you want users in those countries speaking those languages to take you seriously, you should be translating everything for every market.

Translating extensive patch notes for tens of languages would be a substantial amount of work to include for every single update, so that's one reason why most companies choose to keep it simple.

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[Deleted member 3345]

The changelog needs to be translated. See below:

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Again, that's part of the project costs.

You're not saying anything, are you implying that the burden is to heavy to translate a changelog for (the example we are discussing about language translations) is too big?

 

[whitehawk]

Most big apps you see updated all the time are written to be used in hundreds of countries and tens of different languages.

Patch notes should be translated for every one of those languages - sure you don't need to, but if you want users in those countries speaking those languages to take you seriously, you should be translating everything for every market.

Translating extensive patch notes for tens of languages would be a substantial amount of work to include for every single update, so that's one reason why most companies choose to keep it simple.

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This makes a lot of sense.

On the other extreme I hate when developers bury patch notes in a super long/cutesy written update. Corporations trying to be twee is something else.

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yeah, I also hate this. I love how clean the PS4 patch notes are.

 

[PoppaBK]

Ok?

BIG EXPENSIVE TRANSLATE PROJECT

Changelog: Translations.

I'm sure that cost less than the translate project.

I know you have to jump in and comment on everything related to china and apps, but providing a changelog that's less than a twitter length for language changes is quite the battle to be fighting.

Click to shrink...

You aren't understanding. If they make a big long changelog they now have to translate that changelog into 15 languages. I can't imagine it is prohibitively expensive but why go to all that effort for basically no-one.

 

[tadaima]

Ok?

BIG EXPENSIVE TRANSLATE PROJECT

Changelog: Translations.

I'm sure that cost less than the translate project.

I know you have to jump in and comment on everything related to china and apps, but providing a changelog that's less than a twitter length for language changes is quite the battle to be fighting.

Click to shrink...

When you have security fixes and updates to get out, usually the patch notes are the least important thing on the to-do list. It is not unusual for a build to be ready mere hours – if not minutes – before the deadline. Patch notes are usually created and modified based on what is in the update. Depending on business goals, getting the update out usually takes priority over writing detailed notes to the user (99+% of which aren't going to read them and the majority of the rest aren't going to care about any great amount of detail). If there isn't a copy writer and 15 translators on hand at that moment in time, the default patch notes will be included.

 

[Deleted member 3345]

You aren't understanding. If they make a big long changelog they now have to translate that changelog into 15 languages. I can't imagine it is prohibitively expensive but why go to all that effort for basically no-one.

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Biggest point? When we do a big update we write it all in, but also translate it into the 10-15 languages we support, those translations cost a lot of money to do. So if it's not worth mentioning, we'd have just the "Fixed some bugs" text ready.

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It's a change log. Literally a bullet point list, that can easily, (at the base minimum put through google translate).

Changelogs aren't code enumirated. They are summaries. So again, if you can be bothered to provide an app/service into multiple regions, you should be expected to provide service and changelogs to those regions.

 

[numble]

Again, that's part of the project costs.

You're not saying anything, are you implying that the burden is to heavy to translate a changelog for (the example we are discussing about language translations) is too big?

Click to shrink...

You are the one making an example about language translations, I have always been talking about translating a changelog all along.

Yes, a small developer (Rlan makes indie games, I believe) paying to translate every changelog is an unnecessary expense.

tadaima also makes a good point:

When you have security fixes and updates to get out, usually the patch notes are the least important thing on the to-do list. It is not unusual for a build to be ready mere hours – if not minutes – before the deadline. Patch notes are usually created and modified based on what is in the update. Depending on business goals, getting the update out usually takes priority over writing detailed notes to the user (99+% of which aren't going to read them and the majority of the rest aren't going to care about any great amount of detail). If there isn't a copy writer and 15 translators on hand at that moment in time, the default patch notes will be included.

Click to shrink...

 

[Vaelic]

Issue tracking is different than feature implementation.

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You still need to vette the features

 

[Hero of the Wild]

Im convinced mobile app developers pray on little kids parents like blood sucking vampires, except they suck money instead of blood.

They offer a free game but after every turn or whatever it will play a 40 second ad. Kid gets frustrated and I just pay to unlock ads because I feel sorry.

Then I try explain we have a switch with all the best games, PS4, wii u, pc, 2ds etc which doesn't get me anywhere.

 

[BreakyBoy]

Modern software development is all about continuous delivery, so you can probably expect this to be more common as time goes on. If anything, I've heard complaints from some iOS devs that Apple's review process slows things down too much.

 

[Red Alert]

Patch notes are often an afterthought. Yeah, you could get everything right and correctly documented, but this takes time and nobody wants to pay for that.

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Not everything done for money . There are clear issues with wanna bee developers poping out every day these days. Documentation is one of the key principle of clear and good software engineering principles. You are only to blame yourselves for not doing your job correctly not the paychecker.

 

[SilentPanda]

It's a change log. Literally a bullet point list, that can easily, (at the base minimum put through google translate).

Changelogs aren't code enumirated. They are summaries. So again, if you can be bothered to provide an app/service into multiple regions, you should be expected to provide service and changelogs to those regions.

Click to shrink...

Google translate, how to let your customer know that you don't care for them, and lose their service.
Brilliant.

 

[Deleted member 3345]

You are the one making an example about language translations, I have always been talking about translating a changelog all along.

Yes, a small developer (Rlan makes indie games, I believe) paying to translate every changelog is an unnecessary expense.

tadaima also makes a good point:

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It is expensive to translate updates into 15 languages, so we only detail major updates = lazy?

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You brought it up.

Paying to translate a changelog to your customers is an unnecessary expense(an expense you don't really need with all the available too for translations as imperfect as they may be)?

Really?

The premise on this thread is that changelogs are shitty because they all say one lines like "app improvements"

-Security Fixes
-UI Changes
-New Logo

It's not 2004 and you can get cloud computing for translation services or literal people on demand across the globe for translation services. Devs are being lazy corporate and small time people.

Google translate, how to let your customer know that you don't care for them, and lose their service.
Brilliant.

Click to shrink...

Literallly better than "don't care 'we changed something' ".

e: google translate is a fantastic translation service derive from machine learning and millions and millions of books and real life language.

 

[BreakyBoy]

Honestly, I think it's less an issue of cost (i.e. the translation talk) than it is just a byproduct of the general push in the software industry towards iterating quickly and often. That generally means that the ancillary stuff like documentation (including patch notes) gets neglected, or even deliberately ignored.

 

[RM8]

That's just not true. Sometimes they update their games to include ads even if you already paid for them.

 

[Deleted member 2171]

The box release methodology is long dead. There's no reason to not continually push latest stable...

 

[numble]

You brought it up.

Paying to translate a changelog to your customers is an unnecessary expense(an expense you don't really need with all the available too for translations as imperfect as they may be)?

Really?

The premise on this thread is that changelogs are shitty because they all say one lines like "app improvements"

-Security Fixes
-UI Changes
-New Logo

It's not 2004 and you can get cloud computing for translation services or literal people on demand across the globe for translation services. Devs are being lazy corporate and small time people.



Literallly better than "don't care 'we changed something' ".

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I didn't bring it up. Its always in the context of Rlan explaining how it was expensive for him to get translations and you calling that lazy. You somehow thought it was about including the term "translations" in the update log.

Cloud computing for translations is almost always mocked when it gets things wrong so it is definitely better to say "bug updates". They usually fail when translating technical terms so I really do not think any developer should think that copying/pasting the Google Translate result is better than something safe.

You can say you disagree that it is not expensive and quote out an expense for Rlan if you think this is such an important point. To convince Rlan to do it, I think you need to convince him that it is not expensive and worth his time instead of calling him lazy and saying this should be part of his costs.

 

[hibikase]

I don't understand people like OP. Would you prefer that software never gets improved?

Modern software development is iterative. Better get used to it.

 

[Deleted member 3345]

I didn't bring it up. Its always in the context of Rlan explaining how it was expensive for him to get translations and you calling that lazy. You somehow thought it was about including the term "translations" in the update log.

Cloud computing for translations is almost always mocked when it gets things wrong so it is definitely better to say "bug updates". They usually fail when translating technical terms so I really do not think any developer should think that copying/pasting the Google Translate result is better than something safe.

You can say you disagree that it is not expensive and quote out an expense for Rlan if you think this is such an important point. To convince Rlan to do it, I think you need to convince him that it is not expensive and worth his time instead of calling him lazy and saying this should be part of his costs.

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unless you're his lawyer, I'm not sure why you injected yourself into the conversation then.

 

[numble]

unless you're his lawyer, I'm not sure why you injected yourself into the conversation then.

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I thought you misunderstood his point and wanted to explain it. I don't know why I would need to be a poster's lawyer to post about other people's posts on a discussion forum.

It is very common for users on this forum to post in reaction to calling a developer lazy. You might as well ask if other users are the developers' lawyer when they react to a claim that the developer is lazy.

 

[Deleted member 3345]

I thought you misunderstood his point and wanted to explain it. I don't know why I would need to be a poster's lawyer to post about other people's posts on a discussion forum.

It is very common for users on this forum to post in reaction to calling a developer lazy. You might as well ask if other users are the developers' lawyer when they react to a claim that the developer is lazy.

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You seemed to be speaking on his(sic your usage) behalf. Very explicitly, actually.

 

[Husker86]

Umm, no. Most projects have a standard release cycle. Sometimes some bug fixes are put in, sometimes code for future A/B testing. Having a standard release cycle is much better for development teams because you don't get stuck in a loop of "Well, let's wait until this is done to release next version". One week later, "Well, we might as well squeeze this in too, just wait a bit longer".

 

[Johnny Blaze]

Regarding the translate issue, Google automatically translates your changelog if necessary/set up in the Dev Console. Ever seen weird English changelogs on the play store? It's automatic translation.

Some updates are so minor yet necessary that they simply fall under a bug/security fix that may not even concern how you use the app, sometimes it's not even a line of code.

 

[numble]

You seemed to be speaking on his(sic your usage) behalf. Very explicitly, actually.

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I disagree, its just normal forum posting. Others have said similar things to explain the position. He is a known developer on games that I like.

To get the discussion moving forward, his position is that it is an expense his team does not want to spend, your position is that it is not expensive or should be a cost that is required. Unless you want to agree to disagree, I think to get him to agree to your position requires something more persuasive than saying he is lazy and has no project tracker.

 

[Deleted member 25108]

Unless it's security related, I never update my apps.

Why bother? It's either

A) an update to conform to some nebulous design language that you don't give a fuck about.
B) an update so the app can better serve you ads/get you to buy IAP/get more data about you.
C) feature creep that raises the apps footprint on your phone, doing things you don't need it to do.
D) a combo of all of the above.

If I like how an app works, I like it to stay how it works. While the early days of mobile were a joy of new and useful updates, 9 times out of ten they are a nuisance. Whatever they add, you probably won't miss. And if you do miss it.....shit, there is another app for that.

 

[Henrar]

Most customers don't care and there's no need to write changelogs for code refactor or libraries upgrade as they aren't really customer-facing changes.

 

[Deleted member 3345]

I disagree, its just normal forum posting. Others have said similar things to explain the position. He is a known developer on games that I like.

To get the discussion moving forward, his position is that it is an expense his team does not want to spend, your position is that it is not expensive or should be a cost that is required. Unless you want to agree to disagree, I think to get him to agree to your position requires something more persuasive than saying he is lazy and has no project tracker.

Click to shrink...

I know you like to speak on his behalf, but don't speak on mine.

I'm not trying to get anyone to agree to my position.He's own post offloaded the responsibility of a proper changelog by saying:

So if it's not worth mentioning, we'd have just the "Fixed some bugs" text ready.

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and for the record "agree to disagree" is the lowest form of disengagement for forums.

 

[amanset]

Because, especially for larger teams, the amount of actual changes is huge. The game I work on only has six programmers but a full list for a single release would go on forever. And frankly some of those you don't want to talk about or perhaps even can't.

So we shorten it it "bug fixes" and then detail any new features.

 

[Rodney McKay]

unless you're his lawyer, I'm not sure why you injected yourself into the conversation then.

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It's a public forum, that's kinda the whole point of posting publicly to begin with.

If you want a direct one on one conversation with no one else chiming in there's always direct or private messaging.

 

[numble]

I know you like to speak on his behalf, but don't speak on mine.

I'm not trying to get anyone to agree to my position.He's own post offloaded the responsibility of a proper changelog by saying:



and for the record "agree to disagree" is the lowest form of disengagement for forums.

Click to shrink...

I think the lowest form of disengagement for forums is to say "don't interject in forum conversations between posters unless you are one of the poster's lawyers".

If you are not trying to get others to agree with you, and don't want to discuss things unless its another poster's lawyer, then vent away.

 

[ZackieChan]

You seemed to be speaking on his(sic your usage) behalf. Very explicitly, actually.

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Reading your further posts, I don't think my assessment of you was very far off.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Deleted member 3345]

It's a public forum, that's kinda the whole point of posting publicly to begin with.

If you want a direct one on one conversation with no one else chiming in there's always direct or private messaging.

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I quoted one person another responded, and started to talk about the first posters decisions. I have no problem with engaging other people. I want to have discussions. but numble is hiding behind what the other poster "might" be thinking, and that's just lame.

I think the lowest form of disengagement for forums is to say "don't interject in forum conversations between posters unless you are one of the poster's lawyers".

If you are not trying to get others to agree with you, and don't want to discuss things unless its another poster's lawyer, then vent away.

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You're literally trying to make an argument by proxy but not really.

When you accused me of bringing something up that YOU did, you threw it on the other person's post.

 

[numble]

I quoted one person another responded, and started to talk about the first posters decisions. I have no problem with engaging other people. I want to have discussions. but numble is hiding behind what the other poster "might" be thinking, and that's just lame.



You're literally trying to make an argument by proxy but not really.

When you accused me of bringing something up that YOU did, you threw it on the other person's post.

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You said that I was the one that brought up the cost of translations, I simply clarified that I was not the one that brought it up, to be factually accurate.

I'm not hiding behind what he might be thinking, he explicitly said it was his biggest point:

Biggest point? When we do a big update we write it all in, but also translate it into the 10-15 languages we support, those translations cost a lot of money to do. So if it's not worth mentioning, we'd have just the "Fixed some bugs" text ready.

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What do you think I am saying Rlan "might" be thinking?

 

[Deleted member 3345]

You said that I was the one that brought up the cost of translations, I simply clarified that I was not the one that brought it up, to be factually accurate.

I'm not hiding behind what he might be thinking, he explicitly said it was his biggest point:

What do you think I am saying Rlan "might" be thinking?

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I thought you misunderstood his point and wanted to explain it.

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This isn't indicative of presenting his frame of thought?

 

[numble]

This isn't indicative of presenting his frame of thought?

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I am not speculating as to his thinking because he was very clear that the biggest point to him is the cost of translations.

 

[Deleted member 3345]

I am not speculating as to his thinking because he was very clear that the biggest point to him is the cost of translations.

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and you're interjecting because? I'm sure his post function is working. I asked a direct question to that poster. I asked explicitly what the poster was trying to say and you came in trying to clarify.

 

[numble]

and you're interjecting because? I'm sure his post function is working. I asked a direct question to that poster. I asked explicitly what the poster was trying to say and you came in trying to clarify.

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Because it is a forum and we can chime in on what others say?
There are a lot of posters that mentioned the translation of update notes point as well after Rlan posted.
You spent several posts thinking it was about "translations" as an item in the update notes, instead of the translation of the update notes itself, that is why there is a clarification.

This is a video game forum and it is very common for posters to chime in on developers' comments and it may be unrealistic to expect a developer to respond to a poster that insinuates that they are lazy.

 

[whitehawk]

Im convinced mobile app developers pray on little kids parents like blood sucking vampires, except they suck money instead of blood.

They offer a free game but after every turn or whatever it will play a 40 second ad. Kid gets frustrated and I just pay to unlock ads because I feel sorry.

Then I try explain we have a switch with all the best games, PS4, wii u, pc, 2ds etc which doesn't get me anywhere.

Click to shrink...

Honestly I would take away the iPad from your kid. Or at least have a parental control on. Don't let him download any games, just hand pick.

Mobile games have borrowed the arcade design philosophy, then intensified it by 50x and injected it with cocaine.

I got into playing clash of clans cause my friends wanted me to join their clan.

This game is the same thing over and over. The game never challenges you, gets harder or changes. It merely makes you feel good by giving you tons of characters and cards to upgrade them. But you never have enough gold to upgrade so you feel compelled to buy gems with real money to speed the process up.

There's a direct need for regulation because the line between mobile games and gambling is blurring. Kids should not be exposed to this.

It mind sound like a "back in my day we had real games", but it's not. It's limited to mobile games, console games suffer from this problem on a dark far lesser scale.

 

[Mg.]

Having worked on multiple apps that are available on the AppStore, I can definitely understand some apps getting new updates every other day, hahaha. I've been there before myself multiple times. Most of the times it's for some incredibly minor detail that the user will never interact with.

 

[Deleted member 4247]

Google themselves don't even have patch notes. It's always the same old notes from a year ago, really bugs me.

 

[MarkMcLovin]

There was a point when the Facebook app on android would update nearly, or quite possibly, every day.

 

[davepoobond]

We should be able to report patch notes for not being substantive

 

[Skelepuzzle]

Im convinced mobile app developers pray on little kids parents like blood sucking vampires, except they suck money instead of blood.

They offer a free game but after every turn or whatever it will play a 40 second ad. Kid gets frustrated and I just pay to unlock ads because I feel sorry.

Then I try explain we have a switch with all the best games, PS4, wii u, pc, 2ds etc which doesn't get me anywhere.

Click to shrink...

Having worked on a small time free to play game...

Basically, the developers do not see it this way and assume that what they are doing is fine because it's just business and they're making money for their family.

The publisher employs analysists, whose job is to analyze all the data and go toward whatever trend is currently making money. If the advice for your game comes from an analyist, many developers completely decouple themselves from any external conversation besides revenue and follow it.

This basically results in preying on the young, the gambling addict adjacent, and your random actually rich whale.

The fucked up part is that if you either don't follow a cookie cutter monetization design and/or get lucky, your free to play game completely fails and your studio takes a hit or goes under.

It's terrible all around and I hope I never work on another one. Trying to keep a 100 dollar currency purchase button out of the game was a real argument... what honest use would such a thing ever have?

 

[Hero of the Wild]

Honestly I would take away the iPad from your kid. Or at least have a parental control on. Don't let him download any games, just hand pick.

Mobile games have borrowed the arcade design philosophy, then intensified it by 50x and injected it with cocaine.

I got into playing clash of clans cause my friends wanted me to join their clan.

This game is the same thing over and over. The game never challenges you, gets harder or changes. It merely makes you feel good by giving you tons of characters and cards to upgrade them. But you never have enough gold to upgrade so you feel compelled to buy gems with real money to speed the process up.

There's a direct need for regulation because the line between mobile games and gambling is blurring. Kids should not be exposed to this.

It mind sound like a "back in my day we had real games", but it's not. It's limited to mobile games, console games suffer from this problem on a dark far lesser scale.

Click to shrink...

Thankfully he is only 4 and can't download anything himself yet.

It's true if I didn't have password requirement for each and every download, free or not, including in app purchases, he could easily have racked up thousands by accident. He is receptive to my talks about "scams" in these games so I'm not too worried since he understands the difference between a full game like Kirby and KickTheBuddy where you can spend ungodly amount on the items.

Having worked on a small time free to play game...

Basically, the developers do not see it this way and assume that what they are doing is fine because it's just business and they're making money for their family.

The publisher employs analysists, whose job is to analyze all the data and go toward whatever trend is currently making money. If the advice for your game comes from an analyist, many developers completely decouple themselves from any external conversation besides revenue and follow it.

This basically results in preying on the young, the gambling addict adjacent, and your random actually rich whale.

The fucked up part is that if you either don't follow a cookie cutter monetization design and/or get lucky, your free to play game completely fails and your studio takes a hit or goes under.

It's terrible all around and I hope I never work on another one. Trying to keep a 100 dollar currency purchase button out of the game was a real argument... what honest use would such a thing ever have?

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Yea sry I should have said publishers instead of developers, didn't mean to have a go at you devs.

 

[NekoFever]

Ooh, updates, nice.

Bug fixes and performance improvements
Bug fixes and performance improvements
Bug fixes and performance improvements
Bug fixes and performance improvements
Bug fixes and performance improvements
Bug fixes and performance improvements
Bug fixes and performance improvements

 

[Skelepuzzle]

Yea sry I should have said publishers instead of developers, didn't mean to have a go at you devs.

Click to shrink...

No problem, didn't take it personally.

 

[partyhat]

It's not a conspiracy, and 100% truth. Updates for mobile games absolutely correlate with upticks in engagement and sales.

 

[whitehawk]

It's not a conspiracy, and 100% truth. Updates for mobile games absolutely correlate with upticks in engagement and sales.

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I knew it! Any sources/investigations on this?