iFrames or Accurate Hitbox Detection? Is there any excuse for this anymore?

[Noroi_Kisaragi]

IFrames

vs

Hitbox

Which looks more impressive? Which is more realistic? And which is more fun?

Iframes are just a compensation for network lag and bad hitboxes for whatever reason.

But if you're trying to be an action game and I would even argue a 3d fighting game, there is no excuse to still have iframes in your game. Unless it's for some magical dodge type ability like some Bayonetta Witch Dodge crap then yeah magic is a good reason to have iframes

But stuff like Devil May Cry even has iframes on a simple jump? JUMPING has Iframes?
What?

Well yeah, it does! And in some cases, so does falling...

Also, sometimes Iframes can be done bad, which results in stuff like this

This only illustrates that when developers rely on iframes to carry their weight, they simply don't understand action games.

There is no excuse with modern hardware to still prefer iframes over proper hitboxes in action games. The only exceptions I can think of are to compensate for network lag in some way, when used for magical reasons, or in a 2d game.

 

[Soulflarz]

Difference in style
Give me iframes in monster hunter when I suicide dive, thanks.

It's a developers choice and preference for how they want to balance their game, it's not a topic of "wow your invincibility is inexcusable!", thats a weird take.

That being said, your hitboxes should be accurate regardless of if you allow iframes to grant invunerability on top of that, else you get Niohs launch issues (tbh I'm not sure those were ever fixed, looking at you boss whos lunge attack went a whole spears length to the side).

Iframes are essential to pace in certain action games. It's the same reason a weak enemy doesn't stagger you instantly.

 

[Skittles]

Both have their place, Iframes are deliberate design choice most of the time and not a compromise for network lag. MHW would be pretty unplayable in its current state without Iframes. Loads of monster moves would need to be straight up deleted.

 

[Raven117]

To me, hitboxes are of paramount importance.

Iframes, I mean...I like them to some limited extent. (Suicide dive in Monster Hunter is awesome).

Bad hitboxes are rage inducing to me. There are some games (Dark Souls 2, the biggest offender), where the hitboxes are absolutely atrocious. I mean...Wow.

For the most part, Monster Hunter has pretty good hitboxes.

 

[DryCreek]

iframes and hitboxes aren't mutually exclusive all games will use a mixture of both so im struggling to work out what you are saying?

Hitboxes arent accurate because its really expensive to test for collisions against complex shapes so collision in videogames are massively simplified.

 

[Deleted member 2620]

What a weird point to be hung up on! I love the shit out of rolling into wave attacks in Ninja Gaiden (an offline-only 2005 action game). That's an extremely specific experience that cannot be created with an animation-first (hitbox-driven) approach.

And the subjective decision-making that comes with tying animations to hitboxes is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to the subjective decision-making that comes with selecting i-frames.

 

[Cap G]

You should probably think through what would happen if you took the iframes out of jumping in DMC. You'd have difficulty moving around.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Also, sometimes Iframes can be done bad, which results in stuff like this

Click to shrink...

I know this is a really overused gif to illustrate the point, and far be it from me to defend DS2 unnecessarily, but if you look the sword does hit the player as they are rolling, the iframes during the roll either already took place or haven't done so yet. Since the attack is a grab, the grab animation then continues. Now it looks stupid as hell, and maybe they should've programmed it so that if a player is hit by the sword during an action such as a roll or a jump then it just hits them instead of entering the full grab animation - but it DOES hit the player.

 

[Trace]

It's not an either or thing. Hitboxes judge when you get hit, and iFrames judge when you don't get it. But I definitely prefer dodges/abilities having iFrames on them.

 

[UltraGashInferno]

What on earth, not even sure where to start picking apart the op

So ill just say you need both for 3d action games.

 

[Teeth]

They aren't mutually exclusive. They are a design choice and iframes are as "magical" as hitboxes are.

EDIT: iframes are an excellent tool for increasing complexity in action games when used correctly. They can also increase variance, player expression, and allow for more interesting enemy attacks.

 

[Wulfram]

I don't think your DS2 example has anything to do with iframes? The guy was hit, the awkward jump is because after being hit he was caught in an animation.

 

[HaNotsri]

Couldn't you get an upgrade in Witcher 3 which made you invulnerable? I spammed that to death.

Upgrading agility in DS2 made it a roll spam game as well. I don't know if that partially explains the pursuer gif, some extra iframes might have dodged that attack?

I prefer hitbox since I think the most exciting part of these games is managing distance.

 

[Civilstrife]

I don't care if it's "magical". It's a videogame. I can't control the exact positioning of every limb of my character, so if a finger gets in the way of a sword slash while I'm dodging, I don't want to fail the dodge.

 

[Deleted member 679]

This makes no sense at all, these two things are not opposite, and ideally you'd have both in any decent action game.

 

[BigJeffery]

Games that have powerful dodges (so lots of iFrames) can allow for bosses with crazier attacks, so whatever value you lose in the games verisimilitude getting damaged by occasionally seeing a sword or club pass through someone doing a somersault is more than made up by having a game that feels and plays better.

This makes no sense at all, these two things are not opposite, and ideally you'd have both in any decent action game.

Click to shrink...

But yeah, this is the right answer.

 

[s y]

Iframes are just a compensation for network lag and bad hitboxes for whatever reason.

Click to shrink...

 

[spam musubi]

If I had a penny every time I saw an era thread that simply needed "not everything needs to be a soulsborne game" as the only post, I'd probably have enough money to buy a few extra video games.

I love the souls games, but not every game needs to be the same way. Iframes help you make fast, stylish combat. It's a different type of game. Hitboxes are realistic, but that doesn't always translate to entertaining gameplay.

 

[Ogodei]

I figure fair is fair. In the Monster Hunter example, monsters get moves that do not have accurate hitboxes, and you get Iframes in exchange.

In action games, it depends on what you're trying. Your Bayonetta example is a good one, and I'd argue that they're necessary for fast paced frame-perfect action games, while maybe comparatively slower paced stealth-action games (like Metal Gear) would do a disservice to have them.

 

[SoH]

Two thoughts. First being that action games are just models which is a bigger topic than OP is asking about, but in summary trying to criticize rigor against reality is useful on occasion but ultimately can lead to "why can't my character climb over this knee high fence" which just means you're hyper focused on a tiny aspect of the model.


Second. This gif.

Shield is on the right, giant sword is on the left. Don't roll into the arc of an enemies weapon. iframes or not. The animation is botched, no doubt, but it ignores who the real fuck up is here.

IFrames

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 2474]

You fundamentally don't understand the purpose of iframes. It's not about lag compensation or bad hitboxes at all - it's about avoiding situations where the player gets barely grazed by an attack and punished for it even though they thought they dodged effectively, among other things. It's one of those many "lies" game devs use to make games feel good to play even if they aren't strictly realistic.

 

[KainXVIII]

 

[Deleted member 29682]

iframes are one of those things that isn't realistic but when consistent can be used to make a satisfying combat system. However what's important is that they are 'felt' by the player, rather than seen.

 

[iksenpets]

I mean, the answer is both. Good hitboxes lead to cool moments like your Dark Souls gif, but i-frames are necessary for dodges to feel right in fast-paced games, even if they're not realistic. For every slowed down gif you can find of a guy impaled on a sword for a split second but not being hurt, there are ten instances where someone was technically hit in some fast, minute way during the dodge where the player would be incredibly frustrated by receiving damage they couldn't perceive while they were in the middle of what they felt to be a correctly executed dodge. Some games just wouldn't be fun if you were penalized for everytime you got touched mid-dodge. Feel is more important than realism here.

 

[2+2=5]

I don't see how the 2 things are mutually exclusive, games have both, invincibility frames are a design decision, not a technical limitation.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

most games i have played that completely lack i-frames are NOT fun in practice even if it's technically more realistic

the obvious answer is to have i-frames and still try to have accurate hit boxes

 

[Crayon]

This is yet another of those situations were I have to say that I've played many excellent games that have used either method. I have no reason to prefer one or the other.

 

[Deleted member 12833]

I personally like i frames

Hit detection should always be as good as possible

 

[D65]

All the best action games work with iframes...

 

[DieH@rd]

 

[Scythesurge]

Confusing topic, developers should focus on both if they want to make a quality action game. Hitboxes help with the feedback for players while i frames lead to specific strategies in the context of those hitboxes.

 

[dom]

Your Bloodborne example isn't even iFrames. There was no dodge there and is hitbox related.

 

[reminiscingLemon]

Iframes are just a compensation for network lag and bad hitboxes for whatever reason.

Click to shrink...

Im not sure you actually understand what I frames are, but they certainly aren't lag compensation.

I don't really see how you can compare these 2, they are 2 halves of the good game design coin. Clever use of one would require clever use of the other.

 

[correojon]

OP your explanations are all over the place...if iframes are a compensation for network lag then why offline single player games like DMC feature them?

Hitboxes and iframes are a design choice. Going through enemy attacks in Bayonetta, DMC or Dark Souls thanks to iframes is part of their awesome combat systems and an important aspect that makes them work.

Now regarding hitboxes...there´s no such thing as a good or bad hitbox without some context. Dark Souls 1 hitboxes are great because they work with the realistic combat the game uses. But other games use completely unrealistic hitboxes and are better for it. Some examples:

• All (good) bullet hell games use a smaller hitbox for the player (and usually enemy bullets as well) so it´s easier to avoid all the bullets. It also helps create the illusion that the bullets are grazing the player, making it more espectacular and engaging.
• All (good) platform games use smaller hitboxes than the player´s sprite to help with navigation. That (among other things) is why it´s so easy to jump through a single block gap with Mario, even if Mario´s sprite is slightly wider than the gap. Also, enemies have smaller hitboxes and powerUps have bigger ones, so it´s easier to avoid enemies or pass just close to them without hitting them, but rarely you´ll get frustated by missing a powerup by a pixel.

As long as hitboxes and invincibility frames serve the systems the devs intended them to, it doesn´t matter if they exist or are not adjusted to the model/sprite.

 

[Ginger Hail]

You need both. It's not an "or" situation.

 

[Bansai]

Team Hitbox, always.

iFrames to me always seemed like a lazy cop-out, give me 2 evade options [e.g. roll and dodge like in The Witcher 3] and send me on my way without the ability to magically phase through attacks.

 

[Khezu]

Weird ass topic.
Iframes are the best, and are basically required to make a lot of combat oriented games feel good.

 

[Hong]

Uhh.. both. I like iFrames in my Souls games. I want to be able to roll through attacks. If I'm not rolling, an attack should hit me only if it actually touches me. If I do a well-timed dodge but the hitbox decides I get hit anyway, that's bad. I don't want to be punished for doing the correct thing. So a balance between both is important.

 

[Deleted member 41931]

DS1's I think had nice amount of I-frames(barring some of the ninjaflip shit). They're present, but It's not too extreme that it makes my character feel intangible.

Hellblade on the other hand was terrible about it. Way too much. It broke the combat for me. The Fenrir fight you're supposed to listen for when he's about to attack since you're submerged in darkness. However I just spamed the dodge instead of waiting until the precise moment and it trivialized the fight.

 

[azeke]

But stuff like Devil May Cry even has iframes on a simple jump? JUMPING has Iframes?

Click to shrink...

That's because "default" dodge ability requires player to do a combination of face button, shoulder button and tilting the stick in a direction relative to character position to closest enemy. It sounds complicated because it IS complicated.

Thus, jumping was made the de-facto dodge ability by boosting it iframes.

This only illustrates that when developers rely on iframes to carry their weight, they simply don't understand action games.
...
The only exceptions I can think of are to compensate for network lag in some way, when used for magical reasons, or in a 2d game.

Click to shrink...

Wrong, wrong, wrong and more wrong.

There is no excuse with modern hardware to still prefer iframes over proper hitboxes in action games.

Click to shrink...

Iframes don't come from limitation of hardware but from limitation of human perception to account for player character's AND enemy's model peculiarities.

For extremely slow games like Souls (and judging from posted gif here -- new God of War) removing iframes might work because when slashes take up to 3 seconds you will notice clipping more, but removing frames in fast games will make dodging unreliable and wonky.

 

[Smash-It Stan]

Hitboxes IMO. But since bloodborne no blocking or parrying its completely built off of I frames.

 

[Quad Lasers]

This might be the worst OP I've ever seen on this forum.

 

[TetraGenesis]

You fundamentally don't understand the purpose of iframes. It's not about lag compensation or bad hitboxes at all - it's about avoiding situations where the player gets barely grazed by an attack and punished for it even though they thought they dodged effectively, among other things. It's one of those many "lies" game devs use to make games feel good to play even if they aren't strictly realistic.

Click to shrink...

Yes. It always puzzles me when people don't appreciate the values of the "lies" that make mechanics feel good.

I mean, read the blog post about the programming of the Leviathan Axe by the lead combat designer for God of War. It's insane how many fabrications and manipulations went into the psychology of making that mechanic feel satisfying. And man, did they nail it.

 

[Ada]

Your BB example doesn't even make sense. Where is the evade?

 

[Astral Lovelace]

iFrames or death.

Death, of course, because dodging is useless without iFrames.

 

[Quad Lasers]

You fundamentally don't understand the purpose of iframes. It's not about lag compensation or bad hitboxes at all - it's about avoiding situations where the player gets barely grazed by an attack and punished for it even though they thought they dodged effectively, among other things. It's one of those many "lies" game devs use to make games feel good to play even if they aren't strictly realistic.

Click to shrink...

It's also about opening up new avenues for skillful play. Eating an entire god damn grenade in Lost Planet by timing a roll through one feels incredible and is one of those things that just gives you life.

 

[SoH]

Yes. It always puzzles me when people don't appreciate the values of the "lies" that make mechanics feel good.

Click to shrink...

Word. All games are a mountain of lies. Asking for a better lie is not a bad impulse, per se. You do have to first acknowledge it will still just be a lie.

The knight in chess doesn't model horse movement well, at all. Like not even a little bit. You get some concept of jumping worked in there, I guess. Doesn't really make chess a "bad" game though on its own. More accurately modeled horse movement, with a higher fidelity grid of movement spaces, wouldn't necessarily make chess a better game though.

(Also the knight can barely move a few spaces and the queen and bishop can practically fly across the world. This game is bullshit, why doesn't it respect my immersion. When is Chess 2 coming and they better have listened to my feedback.)

 

[Noroi_Kisaragi]

Noticing a lot of posters saying iframes are good because they mitigate barely dodging an attack

Thats no excuse with current technology. If you cant find a way to mitigate those without making the entire player magically invincible, impervious to even a 100x kamehameha to the face, you are lazy

The technology and power is there. No more excuses

 

[TetraGenesis]

Word. All games are a mountain of lies. Asking for a better lie is not a bad impulse, per se. You do have to first acknowledge it will still just be a lie.

The knight in chess doesn't model horse movement well, at all. Like not even a little bit. You get some concept of jumping worked in there, I guess. Doesn't really make chess a "bad" game though on its own. More accurately modeled horse movement, with a higher fidelity grid of movement spaces, wouldn't necessarily make chess a better game though.

Click to shrink...

Hahahahaha, this is a brilliant analogy.

Noticing a lot of posters saying iframes are good because they mitigate barely dodging an attack

Thats no excuse with current technology. If you cant find a way to mitigate those without making the entire player magically invincible, impervious to even a 100x kamehameha to the face, you are lazy

The technology and power is there. No more excuses

Click to shrink...

*sigh*

My man...

 

[hey it's that dog]

Noticing a lot of posters saying iframes are good because they mitigate barely dodging an attack

Thats no excuse with current technology. If you cant find a way to mitigate those without making the entire player magically invincible, impervious to even a 100x kamehameha to the face, you are lazy

The technology and power is there. No more excuses

Click to shrink...

Feels like you've ignored most of the discussion here.