J 0 E

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,619
apps.26430.70257484970681862.43fe1483-3f1b-4ce0-af17-d7c6408af1b4.91e3dac1-68c9-4a9a-9d66-5de1ee79e10d


Started replaying it after they added it to Game Pass, the combat is great but everything else didn't survive the test of time at all!!

Horrible camera, enemy and bosses, world design, laughable story and characters, bland music


I'd tolerate everything about the story and characters (even NG 1 was bad at it) but the camera work and enemy design are just killing my enjoyment. Bayonetta and even DMC 3 which released in the generation before it are more playable and enjoyable.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
Horrible camera? I agree
Horrible enemies and bosses? I don't.

What do you mean by world design? It's a linear action game, just like all the other action games released over a decade ago, if you played only open world games in the last decade no shit you will find a 2008 title to be "boring" in this aspect.
Well, story was never a selling point for action titles to begin, let alone characters, they are all corny.

Ninja Gaiden was all about combat mechanics.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
It's a mess of a game with very satisfying combat. There still hasn't been a "perfect" Ninja Gaiden considering how many dogshit aspects both 1 and 2 have (yes, Black is good but still has major issues).

I hope Team Ninja gets to make a Ninja Gaiden that actually lives up to this franchise's potential next generation.
 

Modest_Modsoul

Living the Dreams
Member
Oct 29, 2017
25,552
I love the blood & gore of the 360 version.

Sigma 2's purple mists are goofy compared to it.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,966
apps.26430.70257484970681862.43fe1483-3f1b-4ce0-af17-d7c6408af1b4.91e3dac1-68c9-4a9a-9d66-5de1ee79e10d


Started replaying it after they added it to Game Pass, the combat is great but everything else didn't survive the test of time at all!!

Horrible camera, enemy and bosses, world design, laughable story and characters, bland music


I'd tolerate everything about the story and characters (even NG 1 was bad at it) but the camera work and enemy design are just killing my enjoyment. Bayonetta and even DMC 3 which released in the generation before it are more playable and enjoyable.
Game was unbalanced, cheap trash when it was released. Ninja Gaiden (Black) is still the best game in the series and one of the finest character action games ever made. I don't know what went wrong with the second game. I actually enjoyed the third game more for what it was.

DMC3 is still the gold standard for character action games IMHO. That game has great characters and cutscenes, a servicable story, great surroundings, fantastic bossfights and some light platforming and puzzle segments with good level design to give it some varity. It's pretty much perfect. I still don't know how they went from that to DMC4+5 with their boring and bland level designs.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,487
The Milky Way
NGB remains one of my favourite games of all time. Everything from the combat to the atmosphere to the epic adventure and diverse locations to the incredible soundtrack. It's stunning and sublime. Of course the camera controls are of their generation, but I can't fault anything else whatsoever.

NGII on the other hand just couldn't scratch the same itch for whatever reason. It's a good game but not in the same league as NGB.
 

FusionNY

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,744
I've been enjoying it quite a bit. It's really flawed but the combat is amazing and I prefer the lvl design in this over DMC5.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,809
Fans of the character action genre, maybe more than fans of any other genre, often completely disregard all parts of their favorite games that are not part of the core combat. I say this as a huge fan of the genre myself, many of my favorite games of all time are CA games. But I think you are completely right. Ninja Gaiden 2 has a great combat system. A great combat system that is buried beneath a troubled game.

I'm a big proponent of Character Action games needing more than just great combat systems. A game with good combat and amazing level design, presentation and characters could very well be more satisfying and fun to me than a game with amazing combat and lame levels, bad pacing and a boring story. So yeah, I totally agree even though I never played through NG 2 (something I will do now that its on Xbox One X though) and it's something that kept me from enjoying Ninja Gaiden Black all to much. The camera is so disastrous in these games, the levels so confusing because of it and the platforming so utterly atrocious that I would never recommend it to anyone who isn't already a die-hard fan of the genre.
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,976
NG2 is really a game that didn't come together with all its parts. It's an enjoyable mess if you play on Acolyte/Warrior, but if you play on Mentor/Master Ninja I'd argue it just becomes a bad game that I wish I had never bothered suffering through all those years ago. It really pales in comparison to its predecessor.

Feels like there's so much stuff working against each other in the game. You've got all these fast weapons and combo variety but as you turn up the difficulty, more and more of the moves become worthless and you have to spam the same few moves that dismember enemies quickly so you can OT them as quickly as possible. Where NGB makes you utilise more of your weapon's depth on higher difficulties, NG2 forces you to use less. Also nearly every fight becomes exactly the same in NG2 MN because the design of most of the game's encounters was to have a bunch of dudes on the outskirts of a fight constantly spamming projectiles. Nearly every fight was basically spamming the dodge and wind run for the i frames and then spamming the same 2-3 attacks in between.

That's basically the entirety of MN, spamming Talon ->YYYY combo for the common dismember and insta OT, spamming the sword's Flying Swallow -> Izuna Drop combo, or spamming Scythe aerial attacks, all intersperesed with windrun dodges. Meanwhile NGB is punishing you for that sort of spam.

Was also really buggy, I remember being particularly miffed fighting the stupid subway worm thing on MN and when I finally was about to kill it it just left the arena never to return. Also quite a few cheaty enemy moves where the game would have a telegraph animation for an attack but it would consider the attack having hit you before that animation concluded. The undead ninjas were pretty bad for it, and the soldier-like ninjas in the forest liked to do it as well, they'd jump over your head THEN kick you to the floor, but the game considered you "hit" when they jump over your head IIRC. They were always the unblockable attacks too.

Also the bosses sucked.

Honestly, NGB has some pretty shit parts too but I love that game at least. Despite that, given how everything else in the franchise has turned out I do kind of worry if it was just a fluke on TN/Itakgaki's part.
 

Naga

Alt account
Banned
Aug 29, 2019
7,850
Camera is pretty much an issue for most japanese games until recently sadly. Really disagree for the rest (including the DMC3 comparison).
Metal Gear Rising doesn't have a deep story, either. Instead, it has an incredible ridiculous one that is as entertaining as it is stupid. There's no reason Ninja Gaiden couldn't achieve the same.
Have you considered that both games don't want to go for the same atmosphere?
Just like Bayo and DMC are different this way. I don't think any game in the genre has a good story tbh. Entertaining, sure.
Does Sigma rectify some if these issues mentioned or nah?
Sigma 2 is worse than Vanilla 2 in many ways, so no.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,013
I didn't like NG2 at all when I played it way back when. I definitely remember hating the camera. I don't think it did anything as well as Black or Sigma.
 

benzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,286
People would rather have blood in a game than play the version of it that fixes almost everything.

That's interesting, because going by the OPs complaints, Sigma 2's camera is the same, same world design, same story/characters, same music, same bosses and enemies, but they added in more playable characters that were pointless additions who don't play as well as Ryu, added in new bosses that are worst than the originals, and neutered the amount of enemies on screen which defeats the purpose of how NG2's combat was designed.
 

zma1013

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,839
Does Sigma rectify some if these issues mentioned or nah?

Sigma 2 removes a bunch of unfun bullshit. There's areas that feel empty because they've simply removed the enemies that were there. It's an improvement because those areas sucked balls. They also replace a couple repeat bosses and some bad bosses with better new bosses. It also cuts down on projectile spam quite a bit.

It's a more fun version of the game but still exhibits alot of flaws that are just fundamentally part of the game. I will never play vanilla NG2 again but I would absolutely play Sigma 2 again.
 

Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,580
Leeds, UK
It was so buggy at release. I remember vividly a boss fight with a giant ghost fish, that if it hit you with projectiles would sometimes instead glitch-register as a instant death grab move.

Had friends over at the time and they witnessed one of my shrillest "this is BULLSHIT" declarations.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,809
Have you considered that both games don't want to go for the same atmosphere?
Just like Bayo and DMC are different this way. I don't think any game in the genre has a good story tbh. Entertaining, sure.

Of course and that's one of its main problems. It tries to tell a semi-serious, dark story but it absolutely fails at doing that. My point was in response to the point that not every story has to be "deep" in defense of Ninja Gaiden 2.

And to your second point: An entertaining story is a good story. One of the best examples for this is Doom 2016. Doom has an amazingly told story - it's comedic timing is on point, the Doom Guy's characterization as good as you could ever hope for with a silent protagonist (yes, that's part of the story, too) and the way the writing team managed to built up this main character as a force of nature hell itself is afraid of - actually bringing the story and gameplay together in a manner few games do - is genius. A game doesn't have to have a lot of story or a serious story or a deeply moving story to be great in that regard. It can be cheesy and hilarious and doing that well is an achievements on its own.
 

K' Dash

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
4,156
It seems to me that you suck and your opinion is worthless.

But that's just me.

:p

Edit: there's people saying Sigma is better? Yeah, I'm outta here.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
15,907
United States
Funnily enough I also went back to this the other day, albeit the Sigma version through PSNow.

The combat is still definitely unique. For how fast paced it is, it can feel like enemies take way too much to kill and it makes Bloodborne look as slow as DS1. I was constantly dodging and parrying and then figuring out when to attack.

I have mixed feelings on the attack/animation commitment. It's "medium" sized, if say Bayonetta/DMC was small and the Souls games were large. I think it's because your attacks happen fast but there's a bit of a recovery period (like the inverse of Souls games). It takes a while to get down but once it clicks it's so damn good.

The camera is atrocious of course, especially during boss fights. It's frustrating that it doesn't go to an extreme wide view (i.e. the old God of War trilogy) considering some of the bosses seem made for that with their AoE attacks and environments are often cramped.

Also this game is like the NES games, the story is mostly told through text dumps on loading screens in between levels and bosses are frequent/introduced unceremoniously and it's ridiculously awesome.

It's not as good as I remember, but still fun.
 

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,346
People would rather have blood in a game than play the version of it that fixes almost everything.

Sigma 2 fixes a lot of stuff and manages to create entirely new problems.

Sigma 2 removes some absolutely abysmal bosses (like that tunnel worm), and instead adds two shitty giant statue bosses that you fight the exact same way both times, and a super boring dragon boss.

Adds variety to playing more than Ryu by giving you one kinda good Ayane level, one solid Momoji level, and one absolutely terrible Rachael level where it doesn't even seem like she was designed to fight a lot of those bosses and enemies.

They fix the projectile spam by just... removing a lot of enemies. They further compensate this on NM by giving enemies one hit kill, unseeable grabs instead of how NG2 vanilla just lit your ass up with explosives. You're essentially choosing between a bullet to the brain or dying via poison at this point.

I don't even think the test of valors made Sigma 2. Sigma 2 does add coop missions, which is cool, but that netcode just wasn't there at the time
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,299
I've played NG2 once and Sigma 2 once (and Sigma 2 on Vita once, lol). I think it's a lot more enjoyable because it takes out more bad than it adds bad, but people disagree. I didn't mind the blood coming out of the game.
 

danmaku

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,270
It's a flawed game but it's still fucking amazing

Yup. It's uneven, but when it's on, it's the best action game ever, nothing can touch it.

Game was unbalanced, cheap trash when it was released. Ninja Gaiden (Black) is still the best game in the series and one of the finest character action games ever made. I don't know what went wrong with the second game. I actually enjoyed the third game more for what it was.

They released a beta version because MS wanted a big exclusive to go against MGS4.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
The game's got issues.

Combat mechanics were its saving grace and the bosses were good too. But between the uneven difficulty curve, the piss poor camera, the utterly moronic story, the somewhat nonsensical level design (reminiscent of games of yesteryear where the levels were nonsensical and only existed to serve the game's other mecanics) and the blatantly overtly sexualized potential love interests, yea, the game has aged poorly.
 

KiNolin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,305
GOAT combat. Levels are good, music is good, story is better left as nonsense. Bad take.
 

KiNolin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,305
Sigma 2 removes a bunch of unfun bullshit. There's areas that feel empty because they've simply removed the enemies that were there. It's an improvement because those areas sucked balls. They also replace a couple repeat bosses and some bad bosses with better new bosses. It also cuts down on projectile spam quite a bit.

It's a more fun version of the game but still exhibits alot of flaws that are just fundamentally part of the game. I will never play vanilla NG2 again but I would absolutely play Sigma 2 again.

People bash Sigma, but I agree.
 

BeaconofTruth

Member
Dec 30, 2017
3,684
Sigma 2 fixes a lot of stuff and manages to create entirely new problems.

Sigma 2 removes some absolutely abysmal bosses (like that tunnel worm), and instead adds two shitty giant statue bosses that you fight the exact same way both times, and a super boring dragon boss.

Adds variety to playing more than Ryu by giving you one kinda good Ayane level, one solid Momoji level, and one absolutely terrible Rachael level where it doesn't even seem like she was designed to fight a lot of those bosses and enemies.

They fix the projectile spam by just... removing a lot of enemies. They further compensate this on NM by giving enemies one hit kill, unseeable grabs instead of how NG2 vanilla just lit your ass up with explosives. You're essentially choosing between a bullet to the brain or dying via poison at this point.

I don't even think the test of valors made Sigma 2. Sigma 2 does add coop missions, which is cool, but that netcode just wasn't there at the time
And they somehow made the same mistake as sigma 1 with the non ryu character. They are just gimped kits compared to Ryu, with no unique twist other than you're gimped now. Shits wack.
 

stn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,885
I loved the combat and some of the boss fights, but thought everything else was inferior to NGB. To me, NGB is 10/10 while NG2 is 8/10. Quite good but not amazing. I haven't played it in a long time so I may do a reply and see if my opinion has changed at all.
 

Palazzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,016
Slightly better game than Ninja Gaiden Black, I think. It does have some genuinely bad and imbalanced sections, but when you're fighting good enemies (which comprise the majority of the game), it's brilliant - I'd go so far as to say the best moments in NG2 (like the weapon survival DLC) are the best moments in all of 3D action gaming. I really disagree with the upthread sentiment that the game is only fun on its easier difficulties too; Mentor is actually fairly well-balanced and very fun, despite initially seeming overwhelming. (Master Ninja might actually be too much though, at least before you make it to NG+.)

Sigma 2 really isn't the way to go. It does cut some of NG2's worse elements, but it does so by cutting a lot of what made the original game so masterful and intense to begin with. NG2 could have been improved, but not how Sigma 2 did it.
 

ViewtifulJC

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,020
Huge downgrade from Ninja Gaiden Black. Poorly balanced, glitchy as fuck, mediocre enemy design, highly repetitive, some truly *awful* boss fights(whoever made the worm boss in the jungle stage needs to be blackballed from the industry), bland art direction, crap camera...just not a very good game. Worst thing is how instead of being an action-adventure title like Ninja Gaiden Black, with more hub like levels and challenges to mix things up, they just dropped for a long 15 hour trek through endless arena fights.

Like NG3 was worse, but there's a very clear path from NG2 to NG3. The lack of ideas and poor design decisions all stem from the same place.
 
OP
OP
J 0 E

J 0 E

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,619
Horrible enemies and bosses? I don't.
Boss battles was chaotic and bad, the skeleton and jellyfish for example.
What do you mean by world design? It's a linear action game
Even linear games have world design, NG2 areas felt boring and deferent for the sake of variety (a mission in mount fuji followed by NY for no reason or narrative)

I hope Team Ninja gets to make a Ninja Gaiden that actually lives up to this franchise's potential next generation.
I see NG's huge potential but I like their focus on Nioh more.
DMC3 is still the gold standard for character action games IMHO.
DMC5 is the gold standard IMO but DMC3 deserve it too.

Fans of the character action genre, maybe more than fans of any other genre, often completely disregard all parts of their favorite games that are not part of the core combat.
The combat is the priority for this genre (imagine an FPS with bad shooting? Any other qualities won't save it) but I still demand good story and characters and appreciate it.
NG2 is really a game that didn't come together with all its parts. It's an enjoyable mess if you play on Acolyte/Warrior, but if you play on Mentor/Master Ninja I'd argue it just becomes a bad game that I wish I had never bothered suffering through all those years ago. It really pales in comparison to its predecessor.
Can't imagine going through this mediocrity in Master Ninja difficultly.

I'm not sure these games are intended to have deep stories.
No one asked for deep story, but anything better than this.
Metal Gear Rising doesn't have a deep story, either. Instead, it has an incredible ridiculous one that is as entertaining as it is stupid. There's no reason Ninja Gaiden couldn't achieve the same.
A great example.
It was so buggy at release. I remember vividly a boss fight with a giant ghost fish, that if it hit you with projectiles would sometimes instead glitch-register as a instant death grab move.

Had friends over at the time and they witnessed one of my shrillest "this is BULLSHIT" declarations.
This type of battles that keeps your eyes focused on the boss's life bar and just want to end quickly.
The enemies are fantastic. Bad take.
No.
 

Deleted member 11626

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
It's still a really fun action title, but Ninja Gaiden Black was just on another level. 2 still has really fun combat, but the rest of the game was just utter nonsense.

Devil May Cry 3 is an all-timer, nearly 20 years later. I don't think that's a fair comparison, since the foundation of DMC3 is clearly still viable for action today, whereas NGB was essentially a one-off as far as the discussion of the best action franchises goes (DMC3 and after, both Bayonettas).

Edit: and the Sigma titles manage to take both Ninja Gaiden games and make them worse. The only way I'd bother with either of them is if you really want to play them handheld on a Vita. Otherwise it's worth having an Xbox instead if you want to play them. Would love PC ports of Black, 2, and Razor's Edge...
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,106
Did the Sigma 2 team ever justify why they removed the blood from the game? It's sort of what's always kept me from playing that version because it's so different from the original vision but didn't realize people actually felt it was a better game overall.

The original's violence wasn't really modified in anyway with Sigma, there was still beheadings etc.
 

CanUKlehead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,590
Never understood why people were excited about this, i thought it had a bad reputation when it came out originally.
 

zma1013

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,839
Did the Sigma 2 team ever justify why they removed the blood from the game? It's sort of what's always kept me from playing that version because it's so different from the original vision but didn't realize people actually felt it was a better game overall.

The original's violence wasn't really modified in anyway with Sigma, there was still beheadings etc.

I think it had to do with the extra geometry of the limbs tanking performance so they played to the PS3's strengths and changed it to a purple particle flourish and made the limbs disappear rather than having them lay about causing performance issues.

There's still dismemberment and beheadings, it's not really a big deal at all in the scheme of things.
 
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