Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
97,114
I think one of the underlying issues with both, not the only one, but a main factors is they came up hearing stories of badasses. By all accountants Putin was just a mid KGB bureaucrat. Don't know much about Jinping. I can see them getting paranoid about just being a footnote in history and wish to reunite old empires. That shit hit me hard when Putin started pulling out maps from the 1400s.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,216
giphy.gif
 
Sep 18, 2023
663
I've been thinking about court alchemists a lot lately. I think the world might feel less fraught if Xi and Putin had a guy close to them that was like, telling them they needed a vial of their pee so he could perform analysis on it to determine their future, or constantly promising he was this close to finding a way to put two metals together to make unlimited gold.
 

Alucrid

Chicken Photographer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,961
I've been thinking about court alchemists a lot lately. I think the world might feel less fraught if Xi and Putin had a guy close to them that was like, telling them they needed a vial of their pee so he could perform analysis on it to determine their future, or constantly promising he was this close to finding a way to put two metals together to make unlimited gold.

the court alchemist would just drink the pee wouldn't they?
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,203
I've been thinking about court alchemists a lot lately. I think the world might feel less fraught if Xi and Putin had a guy close to them that was like, telling them they needed a vial of their pee so he could perform analysis on it to determine their future, or constantly promising he was this close to finding a way to put two metals together to make unlimited gold.
so true
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,375
Not really sure it's relevent.
Okay Putin wasn't high up when he was young.
Well he's the Russian dictator today.
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,361
India
I think one of the underlying issues with both, not the only one, but a main factors is they came up hearing stories of badasses. By all accountants Putin was just a mid KGB bureaucrat. Don't know much about Jinping. I can see them getting paranoid about just being a footnote in history and wish to reunite old empires. That shit hit me hard when Putin started pulling out maps from the 1400s.
Speaking from an Indian perspective, autocratic leaders seeking to be the badass to restore old empires don't emerge in a vacuum. Modi for example is a product of the RSS organisation, which has spread its ideology somewhat covertly at first and then openly after Modi came to power.

There is an actual populist aspiration here for many Hindus to be a 'superpower' who can call the shots internationally and bully smaller countries and communities. Much of this sentiment is further stoked by the narrative that Hindus have been oppressed throughout history by foreigners, and that the 'Hindu civilisation' deserves its revenge against the world, particularly Muslims.

This used to be something you talked about candidly at first, but is now nakedly apparent in every arm of the Hindu nationalist propaganda machine - from films to literature to music to lawmaking to judiciary and on and on. Today, every arm of the machine that is Indian society is advocating for a strongman, fascist, bullying attitude towards the world.

The 'strongman' image that Modi, Putin, and Jinping promote is emblematic of that ideology. Russia, China, and India all have a "Why can't we be like the Europeans in the colonial age?" aspiration that's barely contained in their PR speak. There is a strong sentiment that to achieve the quality of life the West enjoys, or to surpass it, we must follow the same methods the West applied to get there.

I could go on and on about this, but the gist is - this is far from the individual fantasy of the man who happens to be in power, at least that is the case in India.
 
Sep 18, 2023
663
the court alchemist would just drink the pee wouldn't they?
Maybe the bad ones, but a good one would carry a vial of piss across the continent to bring it to another alchemist, who might combine it with a bunch of other pee and boil it all for weeks on end until it glowed in the dark

That is the true history of how phosphorous was discovered
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,730
There's a lot written about how Russia's recent history is of waning importance and poverty, leading to a lot of nostalgia for strongmen leaders. They may have had tyrannical dictators, but they were powerful under those tyrants. Part of Putin's ability to establish his power is that he appeals to that.
 

Isilia

Member
Mar 11, 2019
6,191
US: PA
If I end up playing MapleStory again, I'm going to cry.

Just a bunch of people who got power, kept power, and no one is willing to try to resist. Mostly because being pushed out a window in a high building isn't a good incentive to try.

(Very, very simplistic view of the matter)
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
113,488
Just a bunch of people who got power, kept power, and no one is willing to try to resist. Mostly because being pushed out a window in a high building isn't a good incentive to try.

(Very, very simplistic view of the matter)

Damn Maplestory sure has changed since I last played it
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,361
India
That shit hit me hard when Putin started pulling out maps from the 1400s.
This also struck me as quite interesting that you were surprised by this. I suppose Russia's stuff is no different from China's insistence on returning to Qing Dynasty borders, and Hindu nationalists' insistence on returning to 'Undivided India', a fiction that encompasses everything from western edge of Afghanistan to the eastern edge of Myanmar.
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,955
It's not like Putin read KGB Comics when he was a kid and dreamed about being a superhero, murderous dictator.
 
OP
OP
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
97,114
Speaking from an Indian perspective, autocratic leaders seeking to be the badass to restore old empires don't emerge in a vacuum. Modi for example is a product of the RSS organisation, which has spread its ideology somewhat covertly at first and then openly after Modi came to power.

There is an actual populist aspiration here for many Hindus to be a 'superpower' who can call the shots internationally and bully smaller countries and communities. Much of this sentiment is further stoked by the narrative that Hindus have been oppressed throughout history by foreigners, and that the 'Hindu civilisation' deserves its revenge against the world, particularly Muslims.

This used to be something you talked about candidly at first, but is now nakedly apparent in every arm of the Hindu nationalist propaganda machine - from films to literature to music to lawmaking to judiciary and on and on. Today, every arm of the machine that is Indian society is advocating for a strongman, fascist, bullying attitude towards the world.

The 'strongman' image that Modi, Putin, and Jinping promote is emblematic of that ideology. Russia, China, and India all have a "Why can't we be like the Europeans in the colonial age?" aspiration that's barely contained in their PR speak. There is a strong sentiment that to achieve the quality of life the West enjoys, or to surpass it, we must follow the same methods the West applied to get there.


I could go on and on about this, but the gist is - this is far from the individual fantasy of the man who happens to be in power, at least that is the case in India.
Like real politicians started using 4chan bullet points.
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
11,307
I've been thinking about court alchemists a lot lately. I think the world might feel less fraught if Xi and Putin had a guy close to them that was like, telling them they needed a vial of their pee so he could perform analysis on it to determine their future, or constantly promising he was this close to finding a way to put two metals together to make unlimited gold.
Unlimited gold is pedestrian for these two. The key would be elixirs of immortality. I've seen some ancient Chinese texts from the first emperor that suggest cinnabar is exceedingly effective in making one immortal.
 
OP
OP
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
97,114
This also struck me as quite interesting that you were surprised by this. I suppose Russia's stuff is no different from China's insistence on returning to Qing Dynasty borders, and Hindu nationalists' insistence on returning to 'Undivided India', a fiction that encompasses everything from western edge of Afghanistan to the eastern edge of Myanmar.
Maybe because i am American my country really not old to have gone through shit like that. If anything we should go back to when there was less states. the Dakotas don't need to exist AND have the same voting power as California
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,361
India
Maybe because i am American my country really not old to have gone through shit like that. If anything we should go back to when there was less states. the Dakotas don't need to exist AND have the same voting power as California
Exactly! I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a friend ages ago. They're American and they were quite baffled by the Old World's obsession with ancestors and genealogies, because they couldn't care less about who their ancestors were, what they'd done, or what their politics were. It's a very American sentiment.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,730
American identity may not draw from as old of a history as others, but it invokes similar things, I'd imagine similar forces are at play at times. Donald Trump was also trying to present himself as a strongman, and he also invoked past national glory. America has a powerful quasi-state cult through the way that things like the Founding Fathers and the Constitution are perceived, and there's a lot of mileage gotten out of the idea of looming threat to that.
 

Typhon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,333
Maybe because i am American my country really not old to have gone through shit like that. If anything we should go back to when there was less states. the Dakotas don't need to exist AND have the same voting power as California

So you want bigger Republican states with a larger voting block??
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
11,307
They're trying to make Russia/China great again, which we've seen time and time again leads to violence, oppression, and bloodshed.
 

Deleted member 4222

Oct 25, 2017
1,712
Joe Biden grew up watching uh Andy Griffith probably. Clint Eastwood movies. Probably listened to the Beatles. This, I think, tells you something.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
35,479
The really scary bit is how eager people are to whitewash that shit and how easily it spreads across social media. How easily the people pushing it can disguise themselves in righteous armor and dogwhistle fascism and how nobody either notices or cares because they're good and the people they disagree with are bad. Anti-imperialists pushing imperialist rhetoric, socialists doing nazi dogwhistles, liberals engaging with authoritarianism. It's like no matter where you go it's there and it's frightening because it's reminiscent of of old-style 4chan where everyone was just saying Nazi stuff as a meme and nobody was serious about it until they were. Then there's the people literally defending the things they use to proliferate and spread the contagion because it also benefits them in some small way.

The world legit feels like it's not in a great place, like we've been speed-running the interwar period only without a counter-balance this time.
 
OP
OP
Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
97,114
The really scary bit is how eager people are to whitewash that shit and how easily it spreads across social media. How easily the people pushing it can disguise themselves in righteous armor and dogwhistle fascism and how nobody either notices or cares because they're good and the people they disagree with are bad. Anti-imperialists pushing imperialist rhetoric, socialists doing nazi dogwhistles, liberals engaging with authoritarianism. It's like no matter where you go it's there and it's frightening because it's reminiscent of of old-style 4chan where everyone was just saying Nazi stuff as a meme and nobody was serious about it until they were. Then there's the people literally defending the things they use to proliferate and spread the contagion because it also benefits them in some small way.

The world legit feels like it's not in a great place, like we've been speed-running the interwar period only without a counter-balance this time.
Know what shock me? The Ukrainian war, not even white saves you if some chud on twitter spin it you are the wrong kind of white
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,438
Putin is product of russian culture that is still largely the same as it was 100 years ago. Other european powers had to realize the truth after WW2 but Russia didn't because they won the war and gained new territories and pupped states. Soviet union was colonial power. Only way to change that is to give them reality check in Ukraine by defeating them militarily (I don't mean boots in the ground but better support).
 

Hrodulf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,497
Not really sure it's relevent.
Okay Putin wasn't high up when he was young.
Well he's the Russian dictator today.
What do you mean, he is the lawful, popular leader of Russia. It's not his fault that his detractors and major opposition constantly find themselves imprisoned or coincidentally dying at politically convenient times.

Seriously though, fuck Putin and Winnie the Pooh.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
35,479
Know what shock me? The Ukrainian war, not even white saves you if some chud on twitter spin it you are the wrong kind of white
Trump, Putin, Xi, Netenyahu, Modi, and the list goes on and on. Fascism literally cannot exist without an outsider to blame for all society's ills. It's always some nebulous group and then it slowly narrows in as the leader figures out what the average citizen will go for and consolidates power as a result. Hitler didn't start off talking about wanting to genocide the Jews, he always targeted them but at first he did it through various stereotypes and dogwhistles--the bankers who control the world and keep us all down. Shit like that, the sort of thing that people across the spectrum could buy into. It's the same for all of those asshole dictators from history. They all find someone to blame and use that to rise to power.

Demagogues and authoritarians need an other in order to keep people from turning on them and realizing what is going on. It's why othering is such a dangerous thing: engaging in it gives those spreading the hate power over us. Even when it's the "right" target, there's always that danger someone takes advantage for the benefit of no one but themselves.

And to your point about whiteness, in Western Europe dudes from Eastern Europe are definitely seen as an "other" across the political spectrum. It's most blatant with the Roma shit, but it's all over. Look at all the "dumbass Poles can't do anything right because they're dumb" jokes. Replace "Poles" with "black" or "hispanic" and it's pretty old school bigotry.
 

Yoshimitsu126

The Fallen
Nov 11, 2017
15,567
United States
I feel like EU is probably the most remarkable achievement in modern history considering how many wars the countries in it used to have against one another. Too bad Brexit happened but it seems "nationalism" is a very common problem for former nations that directly or indirectly colonized most of the modern world.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,418
Sydney
I would say any Russian of Putin's age is going to be preoccupied with the fall of the Soviet Union, Putin was born pretty much at the height of the USSR's power and he watched it decline and collapse in his lifetime.

After the chaos of the fall of the USSR and what they did economically, psychologically, and to the living standards of people in what is now Russia, you sort of see why he's become what he's become. Obsessed with Russia's place in the world and not returning to the dark days of the fall.

Xi Jingping is kind of totally different. He grew up during the Cultural Revolution. He was actually send out to the Countryside during it when the CCP was trying to clear the cities of what it called privileged urban bourgeois.

He likely does not have the nostalgia for the China of his youth the way Putin does for Russia. He's grown up watching China go from strength to strength, and he had to grind a lot harder to work his way up the ladder. The past for China isn't something as readily to return to I think.

China's also a little bit different in how it views itself in the world in that a big component of its national story is something called the Century of Humiliation, basically the mid 19th-20th century where Western powers completely fucked with and degraded it, the big examples being during the Opium Wars and Boxer Rebellion.

China generally also seems in much better shape than Russia so you can sort of why the focus on the future there, unlike Putin who pulls out maps of the Kievan Rus to obsess over things. China obviously has a very rich history but I don't think they want to base their propaganda as communists on say, the Ming Dynasty, the same way the Russian Federation wants to do with their past.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,974
You need to move on with your life, OP. Don't get obsessed with men who don't care about you.