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How do you think MM will handle Dreams PS5? Section off PS4, Dreams 2, backwards compatibility only?

Ploid 6.0

Ploid 6.0

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Oct 25, 2017
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Dreams seem to have spent all generation being developed and it's finally about to be released at the end. It's likely a PS5 version may happen, or maybe they will just let backwards compatibility do the work while they work on something else. In the case of a PS5 version, do you think they will eventually, after many many years, section off the PS4 version giving a update to the PS5 that give them higher limits, while allowing them to go back and play with PS4 creations if they want? Will they just depend on backwards compatibility and have a PS5 "The Second Dreams" game eventually? Warframe players ;)

While in the "Sony will have PS5 only titles at launch" thread debating about old hardware limitations, GAAS games such as Destiny, Final Fantasy XI, and Final Fantasy XIV were brought up. These 3 GAAS games were examples of games dropping support for a previous gen in real time, because it needed to evolve past it's limitations. I am very familiar with at least the situation relating to Final Fantasy XI. Playstation 2 users were always blamed for limitations imposed on the PC users, and they hated our existence. If Dreams get a PS5 version, and they share the same limitations in building that PS4 users have, I can see it being a similar situation.

When it comes to the build limits I know of the thermometer in Little Big Planet, and I have a bit of an idea of how build limit in Dreams work where you can work around it by optimizing your structures, or make endless combined levels divided only by rooms Dark Souls fog door style (very fast loading so it's hardly an inconvenience on PS4). Can you see a benefit in sectioning off PS5 players to allow them more freedom, or do you think the limitations is big enough and forces people to be creative and efficient with their building.

 
vestan

vestan

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I'd imagine it'd be sorta like games that have PS3/PS4 crossplay, like DC Universe Online. IIRC, with LBP3, you could play the creations of others regardless of whether you were on a PS3 or 4 so it'll probably follow in that vein despite the creations being more involved this time.

I don't really see the PS4 being much of an limiting factor but it'll be interesting to see MM work around the PS5's features like the haptic feedback and adaptive triggers.
 
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TronLight

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Jun 17, 2018
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I'm guessing backwards compatibility only, it would be a shame to not let the game use the resources of the PS5.
 
Mass Effect

Mass Effect

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None of the above. The PS4 version will probably upgrade to the PS5 version for no cost. And there will be cross-compatibility between both like LBP3.
 
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Ploid 6.0

Ploid 6.0

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Oct 25, 2017
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I sort of think the current build limit with the optimization tools along with endless rooms could hold up. Then if it's successful they break out with Dreams 2 and that should be the one that last for many generations, if the CPU is good enough, and the increased limits seem to be Minecraft massive.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19

ItWasMeantToBe19

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Oct 26, 2017
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I think the PS5 version will be the only version to get PS VR support as the PS4 is way too weak to run this game and the resolution and framerate of these creations is often bad.

I don't think sectioning off will happen but I do think some people will make creations for PS5 that run at 5-6 FPS on PS4.
 
Godzilla24

Godzilla24

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Nov 12, 2017
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There are many folks that probably believe the PS4 version of dreams is holding back the PS5 versions potential. I personally believe this game was sent out to die. This type of game is releasing at such a weird time. Also how do you rectify the differences between the PS5 and PS4 versions. Will some files just not be downloadable.
 
Velocity:Design:Comfort

Velocity:Design:Comfort

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Nov 23, 2017
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They seem barely able to finish and release it on ps4, do they even know at this point what they're doing the week after launch let alone for ps5?

* I say this as an avid lover and player of dreams who was in the beta
 
vestan

vestan

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Oh yeah, I forgot about Dreams + PSVR, is that still coming at launch?
 
gofreak

gofreak

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Oct 26, 2017
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It's a good question. I don't think a sequel is in the cards any time soon - I think they intend it to be a platform for years to come.

They could split the files, have PS5 only dreams, but not sure it jives with their approach right now. Visual enhancements though should be a definite. It will be interesting to see how it's handled.
 
Tatsu91

Tatsu91

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Apr 7, 2019
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Ploid 6.0 said:
Dreams seem to have spent all generation being developed and it's finally about to be released at the end. It's likely a PS5 version may happen, or maybe they will just let backwards compatibility do the work while they work on something else. In the case of a PS5 version, do you think they will eventually, after many many years, section off the PS4 version giving a update to the PS5 that give them higher limits, while allowing them to go back and play with PS4 creations if they want? Will they just depend on backwards compatibility and have a PS5 "The Second Dreams" game eventually? Warframe players ;)

While in the "Sony will have PS5 only titles at launch" thread debating about old hardware limitations, GAAS games such as Destiny, Final Fantasy XI, and Final Fantasy XIV were brought up. These 3 GAAS games were examples of games dropping support for a previous gen in real time, because it needed to evolve past it's limitations. I am very familiar with at least the situation relating to Final Fantasy XI. Playstation 2 users were always blamed for limitations imposed on the PC users, and they hated our existence. If Dreams get a PS5 version, and they share the same limitations in building that PS4 users have, I can see it being a similar situation.

When it comes to the build limits I know of the thermometer in Little Big Planet, and I have a bit of an idea of how build limit in Dreams work where you can work around it by optimizing your structures, or make endless combined levels divided only by rooms Dark Souls fog door style (very fast loading so it's hardly an inconvenience on PS4). Can you see a benefit in sectioning off PS5 players to allow them more freedom, or do you think the limitations is big enough and forces people to be creative and efficient with their building.

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sort of same way as LBP current creations are used for the newest version but still can access ones from the old version and i am sure they could make it where you can toggle between versions or since it could be BC offer both versions
 
EssBeeVee

EssBeeVee

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Oct 25, 2017
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i doubt mm would separate content from ps4 and ps5 (if there is one). just like the ps4 pro you get some extra feature like either boost in fps or resolution. but base content will be the same as all the content
 
Temascos

Temascos

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Oct 27, 2017
13,114
I'll bet that they'll do a patch and have PS5-only designed content where the creators can do a heck of a lot more. Just jam pack those stages full of content and lots of moving parts at a silky smooth 60fps.

Also be able to design around haptic feedback too, that would be cool.
 
Rosol

Rosol

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Oct 29, 2017
1,409
I'm honestly worried for MM's future, I know they're small - though I'm not sure this "game" is going to light up the charts at all, and it's the only thing they've released the whole generation. I still love dreams though and the concept, and feel it should be a 'built-in' feature of the PS5 where you have sort of a youtube of user generated games, and your own vehicle towards making games. Hopefully Sony won't be cheap and axe that idea because of the fear of costs it would take to support it long term as an os level feature. I also think it would be a great software to launch next to a better next gen vr headset (as the moves have their own issues) - making your own 'vr space' has a niche appeal I think. It shouldn't be too tough to port to PS5, they can just have 2 sets of content, one for ps4 and one for ps5 (with ps5 obviously having access to both)

I just hope they've found a way to better implement templates in the beginning like they stated they were after the beta, it was quite an undertaking to get started on making your own stuff in the beta.
 
Godzilla24

Godzilla24

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Nov 12, 2017
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Temascos said:
I'll bet that they'll do a patch and have PS5-only designed content where the creators can do a heck of a lot more. Just jam pack those stages full of content and lots of moving parts at a silky smooth 60fps.

Also be able to design around haptic feedback too, that would be cool.
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I personally believe getting the PS4 version would be a dumb move. Since Sony wants a fine demarcation between ps4 and ps5 and the community will just migrate over to PS5 leaving PS4 owners to themselves with less and less support over time. The community if segregated will be dead a year or two from PS5 launch.
 
Dashful

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I'm assuming that the PS5 thermometer will be bigger, and as you add content to a scene, if you reach a certain treshold, the game will warn you that above this treshold, your content won't be available for PS4 users. For the rest, I'm assuming everything will be cross-shared.
 
Diarrhea Day-Lewis

Diarrhea Day-Lewis

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Oct 27, 2017
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Just iterate on Dreams 1 for all next gen, let users sell their individual games almost as if it's an engine, and never make a formal sequel
 
chainlinkspiral

chainlinkspiral

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'd imagine PS5 made dreams will just use a different thermometer and won't even show up for PS4 players, or their PS5 creations meet the PS4 thermometer maximum.
 
Temascos

Temascos

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Oct 27, 2017
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Godzilla24 said:
I personally believe getting the PS4 version would be a dumb move. Since Sony wants a fine demarcation between ps4 and ps5 and the community will just migrate over to PS5 leaving PS4 owners to themselves with less and less support over time. The community if segregated will be dead a year or two from PS5 launch.
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Isn't the PS5 backwards compatible anyway? Not sure if it would be much of a problem as I would know my purchase will just carry over and I get some more stuff to play with. Also I could see people complaining if there were no differences between the versions.
 
nib95

nib95

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I really think they should pack in an upgraded version of the game with the PS5, and further yet, release it on PC and perhaps even other platforms too. It feels like one of those games that needs to be in as many homes as possible. The more people playing and creating, the more chance of widespread popularity, creations and success it has. Hell, it's more advanced than Roblox, and look at how popular that is.

I also think they should introduce a voluntary tip system in the game, where we can choose to pay/tip people if we enjoy their game, eg 50p or £1 or whatever, and that way content creators have more incentive to create, including more ambitious projects or works.
 
Dashful

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nib95 said:
I really think they should pack in an upgraded version of the game with the PS5, and further yet, release it on PC and perhaps even other platforms too. It feels like one of those games that needs to be in as many homes as possible. The more people playing and creating, the more chance of widespread popularity, creations and success it has. Hell, it's more advanced than Roblox, and look at how popular that is.

I also think they should introduce a voluntary tip system in the game, where we can choose to pay/tip people if we enjoy their game, eg 50p or £1 or whatever, and that way content creators have more incentive to keep creatingz including more ambitious projects or works.
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That system would need to trickle down to people who created assets used in the tipped creation. Kind of nightmarish thing to manage tbh in terms of who gets what.
 
asmith906

asmith906

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Oct 27, 2017
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I don't think Dreams is comparable to the FF11 example. Dreams is basically a bunch of different games so having PS5 only features wouldn't affect the PS4 users. FF11 had to have parity with PS2 since it was one shared experience.
 
MrKlaw

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Oct 25, 2017
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ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I think the PS5 version will be the only version to get PS VR support as the PS4 is way too weak to run this game and the resolution and framerate of these creations is often bad.

I don't think sectioning off will happen but I do think some people will make creations for PS5 that run at 5-6 FPS on PS4.
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ps4 is fine for PSVR with dreams
 
nib95

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Kyolux said:
That system would need to trickle down to people who created assets used in the tipped creation. Kind of nightmarish thing to manage tbh in terms of who gets what.
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Not necessarily. There doesn't need to be any forced trickle down. If people are especially happy with a particular asset or whatever, even content creators could themselves tip them.

At the end of the day, the point of such a system would be voluntary tipping, not an imposed expectation.
 
cakely

cakely

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Just backwards compatibility.

Maybe the PS5 will get some enhancements but none of them will make content incompatible.
 
Dashful

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nib95 said:
Not necessarily. There doesn't need to be any forced trickle down. If people are especially happy with a particular asset or whatever, even content creators could themselves tip them.

At the end of the day, the point of such a system would be voluntary tipping, not an imposed expectation.
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I'm not saying it's impossible. I just expect it could cause some frustration for assets creators vs games/scenes creators.
 
gofreak

gofreak

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Oct 26, 2017
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Actually... I think they've already baked the answer to this question into the engine to some extent.

Framerate already varies (up to 60fps) depending on what machine you're running on, base PS4 or Pro:



I haven't checked this myself, but I think you are free to create levels currently with poor framerate if you want.

I think on PS5 will just extend out the gamut of possible Dreams complexity that can run at a good framerate. It will simply run more complicated Dreams faster. That is to say - it'll be up to creators to decide if they want to make 'PS5-only' Dreams. It seems the tools already put performance concerns in the creators' hands.

The only question I think is if MM will offer a second thermometer to the UI to guide creators on PS5 performance consumption. Which would be doable. And if they'll add other non-performance-related PS5 toys to take advantage of its controller etc. I think, though, the principle of putting those decisions in the hands of the creators has already been set. And I think to have it that way kind of makes sense, if we are to consider Dreams as an engine that is cross-device. With any engine it's up to the creator what performance envelope they're targeting with their creation.
 
MrKlaw

MrKlaw

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Oct 25, 2017
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gofreak said:
Actually... I think they've already baked the answer in.

Framerate already varies (up to 60fps) depending on what machine you're running on, base PS4 or Pro:



I haven't checked this myself, but I think you are free to create levels currently with poor framerate if you want.

I think on PS5 will just extend out the gamut of possible Dreams complexity that can run at a good framerate. It will simply run more complicated Dreams faster. That is to say - it'll be up to creators to decide if they want to make 'PS5-only' Dreams. It seems the tools already put performance concerns in the creators' hands.

The only question I think is if MM will offer a second thermometer to the UI to guide creators on PS5 performance consumption. Which would be doable. And if they'll add other non-performance-related PS5 toys to take advantage of its controller etc. I think, though, the principle of putting those decisions in the hands of the creators has already been set. And I think to have it that way kind of makes sense, if we are to consider Dreams as an engine that is cross-device. With any engine it's up to the creator what performance envelope they're targeting with their creation.
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'I expect it'll keep level of detail high too - ps4 does tend to drop quickly, and shadow draw distance.

I hope it allows users to take advantage of more memory to have more complex content
 
gofreak

gofreak

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ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Super low res+20 FPS is fine for VR?
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The game will go up to 60hz depending on the Dreams complexity - 60hz meets PSVR reprojection requirements.

I think they hinted they'll have ways to verify if a Dream is VR ready.

But I think this actually raises a relevant point wrt Dreams on PS5 - PSVR Dream development might also need a distinct thermometer. If it does, that might be the model under which another PS5 thermometer is added. Pick your thermometer, pick your performance target - leaving it up to the creator if they want to make a PSVR-ready dream, or a PS5-only dream, or one that can run on anything.
 
MrKlaw

MrKlaw

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gofreak said:
The game will go up to 60hz depending on the Dreams complexity - 60hz meets PSVR reprojection requirements.

I think they hinted they'll have ways to verify if a Dream is VR ready.

But I think this actually raises a relevant point wrt Dreams on PS5 - PSVR Dream development might also need a distinct thermometer. If it does, that might be the model under which another PS5 thermometer is added. Pick your thermometer, pick your performance target - leaving it up to the creator if they want to make a PSVR-ready dream, or a PS5-only dream, or one that can run on anything.
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it'll be interesting how to compare if a third party created level is playable in VR (can it auto adjust detail to meet frame rate? i assume comfort levels re the players responsibility), vs levels created in VR where I suppose you can monitor frame rate as you go.

I'm sure this is well tested though and I'm sure those that have seen it during testing found it to be just fine and perhaps a little bit amazing
 
gofreak

gofreak

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MrKlaw said:
it'll be interesting how to compare if a third party created level is playable in VR (can it auto adjust detail to meet frame rate? i assume comfort levels re the players responsibility), vs levels created in VR where I suppose you can monitor frame rate as you go.

I'm sure this is well tested though and I'm sure those that have seen it during testing found it to be just fine and perhaps a little bit amazing
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It's interesting to think that if performance remains 'uncapped' on PS5, Dreams might be the most likely outlet for playing 'PS5 PSVR' experiences in the transition to PSVR2. Dreams could be super interesting in the early years of PS5 if people can knock together their own 'next-gen' content and showpieces in that period.
 
8byte

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Higher frame rate / resolution. All limitations for creating will likely remain exactly the same.
 
Fisty

Fisty

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Yeah it does make things a bit tricky once PS4 fades and PS5 is ramping up. Kinda sucks they werent able to get it out until the end of the gen, because now it will spend most of its life either cordoning off PS4/PS5 creations or bogged down by PS4 limitations
 
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Ploid 6.0

Ploid 6.0

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I guess a wrench is going to be thrown into this discussion with PC possibly being added to the creation jam group. With the rumors of a possible PC version, PS4 players are already worried that PC creators may make a lot of content that runs horribly on their version.
 
MrKlaw

MrKlaw

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Ploid 6.0 said:
I guess a wrench is going to be thrown into this discussion with PC possibly being added to the creation jam group. With the rumors of a possible PC version, PS4 players are already worried that PC creators may make a lot of content that runs horribly on their version.
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I think the engine is pretty damn scalable so hopefully it won't be too bad. Maybe the engine will be able to measure load across gameplay/graphics etc and determine whether it is okay on PS4? And same for ps5
 
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