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Deleted member 36086

User requested account closure
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Dec 13, 2017
897
As i noted on the previous page, trading cards are regulated. I'm for banning lootboxes because the industry's refusal to regulate itself and their ability to manipulate the odds on the fly based on player data. (for example, a card pack's content can't change based on the individual who owns it, a video game can).

What trading cards are regulated? Certainly not sports cards. It's been long settled that buying a pack of baseball cards is a sale of goods. I'm against manipulating odds to work against the player, but other than that, loot boxes are nothing more than buying a digital pack of baseball cards and I hardly see anyone here saying baseball cards should be banned.
 

MattWilsonCSS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,349
So, why is MTX and lootboxes perfectly fine in mobile if people are affected in there way longer than video games? Why there's no project targeting it like with video games? Why people care more about it in video games to make a fuss about it than to do that in mobile? I can't think of other way than to just do that because it invaded the gamer hobby.
Was this supposed to be a gotcha? (A gacha gotcha?) Because it's not acceptable to me in the mobile space either. There is currently a huge stink being raised about the new Harry Potter game.
 

Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
737
by the way, I don't seem to recall any of the Battlefront or Shadow of War criticisms having anything to do with addiction or neurological development
it was all about how they were bad game design and how long it'd take to unlock Luke Skywalker
 

Deleted member 5535

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Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Those count as video games...

They do? The mentions are always console/pc games. I don't ever read anything about mobile games and I never saw such commotion like Battlefront 2. At the same time, those mentions are always video games

Was this supposed to be a gotcha? (A gacha gotcha?) Because it's not acceptable to me in the mobile space either. There is currently a huge stink being raised about the new Harry Potter game.

No. Just that this is happening in mobile for years and people only began to talk about MTX and lootboxes when it became prevalent in video games as well. And just now those laws are only made and focused on video games, not mobile. Never heard of Candy Crash, Crash Royale or anything.

I'm not even going to mention gacha games because they can't do anything about it either way since it comes from Japan. They would just stop to sell in those regions and focus on JP.
 

OrdinaryPrime

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Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
by the way, I don't seem to recall any of the Battlefront or Shadow of War criticisms having anything to do with addiction or neurological development
it was all about how they were bad game design and how long it'd take to unlock Luke Skywalker

All the lootbox nonsense is about addiction. They make money off of people getting addicted. EA is making 700 million dollars a year on FIFA Ultimate Team. Because people are addicted. I don't care what you seem to recall, your memory is faulty, like the justification to fuck people over to make more money. Capitalism and EA and WB are terrible about this and should be criticized hard. I played FIFA for six months, did not pay one extra cent from the 60 dollars and still felt dirty.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
They do? The mentions are always console/pc games. I don't ever read anything about mobile games and I never saw such commotion like Battlefront 2. At the same time, those mentions are always video games



No. Just that this is happening in mobile for years and people only began to talk about MTX and lootboxes when it became prevalent in video games as well. And just now those laws are only made and focused on video games, not mobile. Never heard of Candy Crash, Crash Royale or anything.

I'm not even going to mention gacha games because they can't do anything about it either way since it comes from Japan. They would just stop to sell in those regions and focus on JP.

I'm fairly certain they would fall under the umbrella of games, yea. Mobile games are still games?
 
Oct 28, 2017
352
Does anyone know exactly how much of publishers profits are from loot boxes? Not dlc and micro transactions but strictly loot boxes ? I have a feeling it's a lot like like billions of dollars when it's all added up. They will never willingly throw all that money away so they will never self regulate on their own accord.
That's why I'ved given up on all this. This isn't an art vs censorship issue. It's a monetary scheme design to make them as much money as possible all the while making it more difficult and complicated to enjoy video games. I'm not sure why anyone would defend this practice. If the government doesn't step in it will never be fixed.
 
Dec 15, 2017
1,354
This industry has turned so predatory, its disgusting in general, but its not just these gambling type lootboxes, its at every turn now, the war is just lost at this point because the people growing up with this garbage are fine with it. I sure as hell don't trust the industry itself to regulate themselves responsibly. I'm just glad i dont have an addictive personality and couldnt care less about cosmetics and costumes etc., but i feel for those people that cant control themselves and fall for this shit.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
What trading cards are regulated? Certainly not sports cards. It's been long settled that buying a pack of baseball cards is a sale of goods. I'm against manipulating odds to work against the player, but other than that, loot boxes are nothing more than buying a digital pack of baseball cards and I hardly see anyone here saying baseball cards should be banned.

QCdcQzZ.png


You'll see disclosures like this. They have to show odds, The video game industries official stance is that video games are special and don't need common sense regulations like this.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
QCdcQzZ.png


You'll see disclosures like this. They have to show odds, The video game industries official stance is that video games are special and don't need common sense regulations like this.

No one I'm aware of has been able to confirm if trading cards have to, or if they just self-regulated. Either way, they show odds. Something that people who keep going "but trading cards!" either don't seem to know, or just ignore. One of the main things gamers have been asking for in terms of regulation, is disclosed drop rate odds so that anyone buying knows just how ridiculously bad their chances are. That, and to stop any systems of manipulating the odds being done behind the scenes. If the odds aren't flat, then the devs would have to tell us about pity timers, or when at Christmas they nerf all the drop rates so people go crazy spending the money their grandparents gave them on a 0.02% chance instead of 0.2%.

I think that's the image I once posted on GAF when I became aware trading cards did this (I don't buy them) - https://www./threads/british-labour...to-regulate-loot-boxes.1448135/post-252066872

Either way, look at what Blizzard did in China with Overwatch drop rates and you see the absolute contempt dripping from the devs and pubs that gamers go gung-ho to furiously defend. So, excuse us when you throw "self-regulation" at us as the answer and you have the likes of Blizzard not even adhering to Government requests.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
Sorry, have you read that?
Because their conclusion - one I disagree with, because they hold the wrong party responsible - is that titles that allow you to 'cash out' become analogous to gambling but no other implementations are.

I have, and I'm aware of what you're referring to. It is not that the other kinds of lootboxes do not have elements that are potentially addictive, but they are not 'illegal' according to Dutch gambling legislation (i.e. not gambling per se according to the letter of the law). That was the message I hoped to get across in responding to your previous post, which downplayed the addictive nature of lootboxes. About lootboxes in general, the report says, among others, the following:

The Netherlands Gaming Authority concludes that four of the loot boxes that were studied contravene the law. These loot boxes contain a prize and the player cannot exert any dominant influence over what in-game goods they obtain. By doing this, the providers are contravening Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act. In the Netherlands, providers can only provide a game of chance if they have a licence from the Netherlands Gaming Authority. To date, providers of these loot boxes cannot obtain a licence because the Betting and Gaming Act does not permit these loot boxes.

Six of the ten loot boxes that were studied do not contravene the law. In these games, there is no question of in-game goods with a market value and they therefore do not satisfy the definition of a prize under Article 1 of the Betting and Gaming Act. As these loot boxes could nevertheless foster the development of addiction, these games are at odds with the objective of preventing addiction to organised games as much as possible.

According to the tool used, loot boxes have, on average, a risk potential between moderate and high (risk category C – D). The risk potential very much depends on how the loot box is offered. The loot boxes with a higher score have integral elements that are similar to slot machines. With these loot boxes, there is very often a (higher) jackpot where the virtual goods are transferable, players can keep opening unlimited loot boxes, multiple visual and sound effects are added and a 'near miss' effect is used. According to this tool, the loot boxes with a higher score are comparable with blackjack or roulette in terms of addiction potential. According to this tool, the loot boxes with a lower score are comparable with small-scale bingo in terms of addiction potential.

So it is very much the implementation that affects the degree to which a lootbox has addictive elements. The ability to cash out / trade makes it illegal.
 
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Deleted member 36086

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QCdcQzZ.png


You'll see disclosures like this. They have to show odds, The video game industries official stance is that video games are special and don't need common sense regulations like this.

That stuff is 100% voluntary. There is no government regulation that compels card makers to disclose odds the real reason it's even there is because it benefits the card maker. Notice how it says the power chrome card is 1:36 and the power cel card is 1:360? That's because there are 36 packs to a box and 10 boxes per case. You think that it's just a coincidence that the best chance to pull the rarest cards are when buy a box and case?
 

Deleted member 5167

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Oct 25, 2017
3,114
I have, and I'm aware of what you're referring to. It is not that the other kinds of lootboxes do not have elements that are potentially addictive, but they are not 'illegal' according to Dutch gambling legislation (i.e. not gambling per se according to the letter of the law). That was the message I hoped to get across in responding to your previous post, which downplayed the addictive nature of lootboxes. About lootboxes in general, the report says, among others, the following:

My 'downplaying' is pointing out how many aspects of videogames in general - and indeed all hobbies - have "elements" that are "potentially addictive", and have cases where people have suffered due to excessive consumption.
There is nothing special about lootboxes in that regard.

And please, stop with the "its not gambling per se, due to the letter of the law, its just a technicality, they didn't catch up to modern times, yada yada yada" rhetoric.
"Buying a random thing!" and "Risking money to maybe win money!" are only comparable in the very loosest idiomatic sense.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
That stuff is 100% voluntary. There is no government regulation that compels card makers to disclose odds the real reason it's even there is because it benefits the card maker. Notice how it says the power chrome card is 1:36 and the power cel card is 1:360? That's because there are 36 packs to a box and 10 boxes per case. You think that it's just a coincidence that the best chance to pull the rarest cards are when buy a box and case?

Even if it is voluntary (which i haven't seen evidence of), the reason they would do it is to keep the government out of it, and they would be liable if they were to lie about those odds which can actually be proven because you can't change the contents of the pack. A video game can (and sometimes does) change its odds based on the users data.

The video game industry is not self regulating its blind purchases, and regulation of blind purchases is not feasible, the obvious solution is to ban blind purchases in video games. There's a million other way to monetize a video game, they don't need to turn them into digital slot machines.
 

Shoreu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,010
I'm saying that there are alot of "Whales" out there in the video game install base, and that certain types of MTX (such as blind purchases) are specifically made to exploit these people. That's pretty much a text book definition of what regulation is for.

The government isn't suppose to shrug at predatory practices because they might just find another predatory practice somewhere else.
Wasn't There an article/ thread on here kinda disproving the whole whale thing saying that the majority of profits was from a large group and not just whales
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
Wasn't There an article/ thread on here kinda disproving the whole whale thing saying that the majority of profits was from a large group and not just whales

Overall profits from all MTX is not what i'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about lootboxes and the people who put themselves in financial jeopardy due to their addiction of blind purchases.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Welcome to America OP. Where corporations kill any bill that isnt to their interests with their stranglehold on the political process

Pure evil and greed
 

SephLuis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,343
I said they should ban them, thats the regulation i want. It's morally the right thing to do and its dramatically easier than trying to audit code for hundreds of thousands of games.

I'm damn glad you're not getting the ban you want.

The video game industry is not self regulating its blind purchases, and regulation of blind purchases is not feasible, the obvious solution is to ban blind purchases in video games. There's a million other way to monetize a video game, they don't need to turn them into digital slot machines.

A lot of games containing lootboxes alread show the odds of each pull. If you believe that or not, is the same if you believe the company behind the game. Some regulations already exist in Asia, if I'm not mistaken. That's what needs to be done, a base regulation to guarantee the game's are fair.

While lootboxes/gatcha have their issues, they also have their advantages such as lowering the entry base. You can put together a lot of good things by being a free player. In a store-only approach, people would just pay for the best resources available and be done with it. Those without cash would have no other options.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
While lootboxes/gatcha have their issues, they also have their advantages such as lowering the entry base. You can put together a lot of good things by being a free player. In a store-only approach, people would just pay for the best resources available and be done with it. Those without cash would have no other options.

Lootboxes do not prevent pay 2 win, it just makes people pay more money before they get what they want, it literally has zero benefit to the player. This is why i keep using the term blind purchase because people become affectionate to the term "lootbox" if they're in a game you like.
 

SephLuis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,343
Lootboxes do not prevent pay 2 win, it just makes people pay more money before they get what they want, it literally has zero benefit to the player. This is why i keep using the term blind purchase because people become affectionate to the term "lootbox" if they're in a game you like.

P2W depends on the game. If it's balanced well enough, it won't prevent people with no financial resources to be competitive (if said games even have a competitive side to it. A lot of them do not.)

As I said, it decreases the barrier of entry to virtually nothing. A good game is balanced well enough that even free players can get something great.
The issue is that there is no upper limit for spenditure. Or, if it exists, it is a high quantity.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
People defending this are really gross. I normally don't make a blanket statement like that. But I just can't help it here.

Indeed, that's how I feel exactly.
"The only people that get addicted are those who have addictive personalities, and if not for this they'd find some other thing to hook themselves on, so fuck them".
Such a dazzling display of empathy.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Welcome to America OP. Where corporations kill any bill that isnt to their interests with their stranglehold on the political process

Pure evil and greed
It's also where Americans have the power to get rid of lootboxes, if the majority didn't already express their support of them or thought they were the problematic extreme that is often portrayed here.

Indeed, that's how I feel exactly.
"The only people that get addicted are those who have addictive personalities, and if not for this they'd find some other thing to hook themselves on, so fuck them".
Such a dazzling display of empathy.
Banning or severely undercutting lootboxes aren't the only way to show empathy.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
It's also where Americans have the power to get rid of lootboxes, if the majority didn't already express their support of them or thought they were the problematic extreme that is often portrayed here.


Banning or severely undercutting lootboxes aren't the only way to show empathy.
American public also supports gambling. Gambling is still regulated, this is an awful argument.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
And please, stop with the "its not gambling per se, due to the letter of the law, its just a technicality, they didn't catch up to modern times, yada yada yada" rhetoric.
"Buying a random thing!" and "Risking money to maybe win money!" are only comparable in the very loosest idiomatic sense.

That's... not what I said nor what I intended to convey? I'd like to be on the same page with you (and others reading), so I'll phrase it another way.

The law defines what constitutes gambling in a jurisdiction. Now that lootboxes have gained the interest of regulators, it was found that certain implementations of lootboxes fall under this definition under certain jurisdictions. Others do not.

Additionally, lootboxes have been found to have elements that are akin to games of chance. These elements contribute to addiction potential and have been operationalized in the analytical instrument applied in the Dutch study in order to assess overall addition risk. Applying lootbox implementations to the instrument gives an indication of their degree of addiction potential based on known contributors. The ten lootbox implementations studied found, on average, a moderate to high risk. The ones on the low end were akin to bingo in terms of addiction potential, while the ones on the higher end were akin to roulette or blackjack.

This addiction potential exists independently of whether a certain lootbox implementation constitutes gambling in the word of the law of a certain jurisdiction or not.

Now here is my personal hot take. In light of this, it would be societally beneficial to have measures in place to provide some kind of barrier to the entry to lootboxes that operate on real money, always ensure proper warnings are communicated for those who wish to engage in them, and have the inclusion of lootboxes disclosed on the game box and online store page in clear and visible messaging, rather than it being the wild west as it is currently.
 
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Deleted member 5167

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3,114
That's... not what I said nor what I intended to convey?

Then my apologies, because that's just one of the many staggeringly intellectually dishonest tacks others in these topics have taken (and continue to take, to push their agenda of Moral Panic).

The law defines what constitutes gambling in a jurisdiction. Now that lootboxes have gained the interest of regulators, it was found that certain implementations of lootboxes fall under this definition under certain jurisdictions. Others do not.

I assume we're still discussing the Netherlands report here, not the Hawaii response of this topic?
Just to clarify when I am referring to "they" and "their" I am referring to that report which you posted.

Yes; I disagree with their conclusion, because their conclusion is not that lootboxes are intrinsically gambling, it is that (ab)use of third party services can make them akin to gambling.
This is no different to - say - wagering on the outcome of a childrens sports match.

The activity itself is not the problem; it is the action of third party actors, and legislation already exists in most jurisdictions for extra-judicial or unlicensed bookmakers to be held liable for their actions.
Because it is possible to gamble on the outcome of almost any activity; not all activities should be legislated as gambling.


Additionally, lootboxes have been found to have elements that are akin to games of chance. These elements contribute to addiction potential and have been operationalized in the analytical instrument applied in the Dutch study in order to assess overall addition risk. Applying lootbox implementations to the instrument gives an indication of their degree of addiction potential based on known contributors. The ten lootbox implementations studied found, on average, a moderate to high risk. The ones on the low end were akin to bingo in terms of addiction potential, while the ones on the higher end were akin to roulette or blackjack.

This addiction potential exists independently of whether a certain lootbox implementation constitutes gambling in the word of the law of a certain jurisdiction or not.

And the problem with their methodology - as per their report - is that the identifiers they used are through the lens of gambling devices not entertainment devices, because things they identified a potential risks ('showing 'near misses', audio visual cues to reward successes, etc) are equally applicable to - say - the QTEs from the latest God Of War.
Videogames in general are addicting. They are designed to be addicting.
A lot of money is spent on making them aurally and visually enticing, and anything coming from a big studio has gone through all sorts of focus testing and analytics to make them as engaging and pleasurable an experience as possible.

Examining games in general through those same lenses is going to yield similar results of being able to classify games on an 'addiction' scale ranging from 'bingo' to 'roulette'.
The problem isn't what a society can do to stop people harming themselves through their own choices - its where you draw a line and allow people to make their own choices.
And that is vastly wider ranging than "Some people spend money they can't really afford to on digital loot".
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
My 'downplaying' is pointing out how many aspects of videogames in general - and indeed all hobbies - have "elements" that are "potentially addictive", and have cases where people have suffered due to excessive consumption.
There is nothing special about lootboxes in that regard.
Lootboxes are definitely very special in that regard. They have to be in order to make people shell out so quickly. Please provide me with examples how hobbies in general become as addiction inducing as blackjack.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
And the problem with their methodology -as per their report - is that the identifiers they used are through the lens of gambling devices not entertainment devices, because things they identified a potential risks ('showing 'near misses', audio visual cues to reward successes, etc) are equally applicable to - say - the QTEs from the latest God Of War.
These do not qualify as near miss effects, because they are actual near misses, QTEs are skill based, not chance based. Also fails on event frequency, availability, pay back, money deposit, and a few others, it would basically not even show up in any of the relevant criteria.
Videogames in general are addicting. They are designed to be addicting.

They are designed to be engaging. Also to be learnt. There's no point in taking away skill based or learnable elements to a game (and hence stop making it a game) unless there's money to be made.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Then my apologies, because that's just one of the many staggeringly intellectually dishonest tacks others in these topics have taken (and continue to take, to push their agenda of Moral Panic).



I assume we're still discussing the Netherlands report here, not the Hawaii response of this topic?
Just to clarify when I am referring to "they" and "their" I am referring to that report which you posted.

Yes; I disagree with their conclusion, because their conclusion is not that lootboxes are intrinsically gambling, it is that (ab)use of third party services can make them akin to gambling.
This is no different to - say - wagering on the outcome of a childrens sports match.

The activity itself is not the problem; it is the action of third party actors, and legislation already exists in most jurisdictions for extra-judicial or unlicensed bookmakers to be held liable for their actions.
Because it is possible to gamble on the outcome of almost any activity; not all activities should be legislated as gambling.




And the problem with their methodology - as per their report - is that the identifiers they used are through the lens of gambling devices not entertainment devices, because things they identified a potential risks ('showing 'near misses', audio visual cues to reward successes, etc) are equally applicable to - say - the QTEs from the latest God Of War.
Videogames in general are addicting. They are designed to be addicting.
A lot of money is spent on making them aurally and visually enticing, and anything coming from a big studio has gone through all sorts of focus testing and analytics to make them as engaging and pleasurable an experience as possible.

Examining games in general through those same lenses is going to yield similar results of being able to classify games on an 'addiction' scale ranging from 'bingo' to 'roulette'.
The problem isn't what a society can do to stop people harming themselves through their own choices - its where you draw a line and allow people to make their own choices.
And that is vastly wider ranging than "Some people spend money they can't really afford to on digital loot".
This is missing the forest for the trees. GoW quick time events don't ask you for a fee in order to pass them (at a random chance at that). The point is they have these addictive elements with the sole purpose of driving the impulse to spend money right there on a random chance item. Which then enters into a sunk cost fallacy for those most susceptible to spend more money getting those items they really want.

That's exactly the same as what slot machines do except the reward is more money rather than the digital item you want. Saying this isn't a problem because videos use similar techniques for other gameplay purposes is completely missing the point.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
P2W depends on the game. If it's balanced well enough, it won't prevent people with no financial resources to be competitive (if said games even have a competitive side to it. A lot of them do not.)

As I said, it decreases the barrier of entry to virtually nothing. A good game is balanced well enough that even free players can get something great.
Then you are depending on the benevolence of the company, when has that ever worked out? You are trading a barrier to entry for bad incentives.
Besides games these days are really cheap unless you need the most recent right now.
 

Deleted member 5167

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3,114
User Warned: Hostility + Arguing in Bad Faith
Please provide me with examples how hobbies in general become as addiction inducing as blackjack.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-excess/201701/excessive-knitting-and-addiction
https://www.verywellmind.com/shopping-addiction-4157288

or succinctly, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_addiction and, oh, look what specific hobby relevant to this board is cited as a well known example.

They are designed to be engaging. Also to be learnt. There's no point in taking away skill based or learnable elements to a game (and hence stop making it a game) unless there's money to be made.

But people are not buying lootbox games for the purpose of lootboxes.
They are buying games for the purpose of them being games; lootboxes are - oh, would you look at that? - a method of retaining engagement.
Why do games - such as critical darling Resident Evil 4 - have adaptive difficulties if the purpose of a game is to force learning?
To take your claim at face value, Flappy Bird is a more ethical game than Resident Evil 4 which is solely a cash grab due to adaptive difficulty.

GoW quick time events don't ask you for a fee

Oh, PS4s and games are free now?
All that money they spend on marketing to ensure they maximise day one revenue seems a waste then.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-excess/201701/excessive-knitting-and-addiction
https://www.verywellmind.com/shopping-addiction-4157288

or succinctly, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_addiction and, oh, look what specific hobby relevant to this board is cited as a well known example.



But people are not buying lootbox games for the purpose of lootboxes.
They are buying games for the purpose of them being games; lootboxes are - oh, would you look at that? - a method of retaining engagement.
Why do games - such as critical darling Resident Evil 4 - have adaptive difficulties if the purpose of a game is to force learning?
To take your claim at face value, Flappy Bird is a more ethical game than Resident Evil 4 which is solely a cash grab due to adaptive difficulty.



Oh, PS4s and games are free now?
All that money they spend on marketing to ensure they maximise day one revenue seems a waste then.
Another poor point, you buy the game (and console) and then play it. Those addictive aspects aren't encouraging to buy the game and the continually pay money on it for random items.

It's the difference between going to the cinema and going to a casino and pretty every other single cost service versus a constant random chance buy in.

There's a reason why gaming was never regulated but lootboxes worry regulators in some cases e.g Belgium outright calling it gambling.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
NOBODY IS BUYING GAMES SOLELY BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOOTBOXES
What earth are you even arguing here? That's the point, that's the entire issue regulators have. It's the perfect gateway to sell these monetization schemes (in the case of fifa to actual kids). If this was the case and it was regulated like other random chance games no-one would cares if people were simply buying these things like a scratch card.

That's not the case however parents don't know that this shit is in the games they buy for their children, general knowledge of what these things are is low and ESRB explicitly wants to keep it that way.

It's plain and simple predatory.
 

Deleted member 5167

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Oct 25, 2017
3,114
What earth are you even arguing here? That's the point, that's the entire issue regulators have. It's the perfect gateway to sell these monetization schemes (in the case of fifa to actual kids). If this was the case and it was regulated like other random chance games no-one would cares if people were simply buying these things like a scratch card.

That's not the case however parents don't know that this shit is in the games they buy for their children, general knowledge of what these things are is low and ESRB explicitly wants to keep it that way.

It's plain and simple predatory.

So you are claiming that people are buying games specifically because they have lootboxes in to get their sweet sweet totally-gambling-breh fix they're jonesing for, and one of the proposals made to curb this would be to... make it clearer on the the packaging that these games contain totally-gambling-breh because even though these fictitious people are being 'encouraged' to buy the game for that sweet sweet totally-gambling-breh rush, being told that a product contains that will... deter those same people somehow because reasons.

Because that seems awfully contradictory.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
So you are claiming that people are buying games specifically because they have lootboxes in to get their sweet sweet totally-gambling-breh fix they're jonesing for, and one of the proposals made to curb this would be to... make it clearer on the the packaging that these games contain totally-gambling-breh because even though these fictitious people are being 'encouraged' to buy the game for that sweet sweet totally-gambling-breh rush, being told that a product contains that will... deter those same people somehow because reasons.

Because that seems awfully contradictory.
What on earth are you talking about? People like games, people have fun in games much like dlc etc lootboxes are a way sell you items (cosmetic/gamplay affecting items etc) that will allow to have more fun in a game. I'm really not seeing what your having a trouble with understanding here?
 

SephLuis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,343
Then you are depending on the benevolence of the company, when has that ever worked out? You are trading a barrier to entry for bad incentives.
Besides games these days are really cheap unless you need the most recent right now.

I trust supermarkets won't poison my food or water. Or to sell me products that are bad (we actually had a pretty big scandal recently because of this).
I trust my internet provider that the speed I pay is what I'm getting.
The point is, even with all regulations in place, you have to trust the companies to be following them.

Games are nowhere close as important as food or other things, which is why I don't have to worry too much if they are being fair or not. If you are investing money in said games, you at least have enough trust that the pull will be fair. Even then, the RNG is a small part of the whole package and a lot of people pay for more content or to simply show support. The more popular games are activelly watched by their communities, so any suspect of foul play affects the game in a negative manner. The very community acts as a detterent in those cases.
 

Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
737
I feel like everyone harping on the audio/visual effects of lootbox openings after reading that one PC Gamer article is ignorant of how much effort goes into UX design to maximize engagement in just about every corporate product we interact with, games or not.

Again, games have been addicting since their inception, and games have been designed to be addictive for ages too, but it's always been easier to rationalize video game addiction as a lack of personal responsibility when money wasn't involved.


Then you are depending on the benevolence of the company, when has that ever worked out? You are trading a barrier to entry for bad incentives.
It's in the interest of developers and publishers to make their games good/enjoyable and not offputting to their players.

Read up on what actually happened during Monkeygate - that was a clear example of how bad PR regarding a publisher's trustworthiness necessitated action on their part (even if they technically weren't even in the wrong).
 

Deleted member 11934

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,045
I trust supermarkets won't poison my food or water. Or to sell me products that are bad (we actually had a pretty big scandal recently because of this).
I trust my internet provider that the speed I pay is what I'm getting.
The point is, even with all regulations in place, you have to trust the companies to be following them.

Games are nowhere close as important as food or other things, which is why I don't have to worry too much if they are being fair or not. If you are investing money in said games, you at least have enough trust that the pull will be fair. Even then, the RNG is a small part of the whole package and a lot of people pay for more content or to simply show support. The more popular games are activelly watched by their communities, so any suspect of foul play affects the game in a negative manner. The very community acts as a detterent in those cases.
You know we have regulations for supermarkets, companies making food, slightly less on Internet providers, etc.

They are actively monitored and enforced to do the right thing. It's not like they have to play along some imaginary self imposed rules. You fuck up you end in prison.