Fans are idiots and devs that listen to fans are even bigger idiots. That's part of the reason the Sonic franchise got as low as it did.
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Have Dev's finally realized that the fans are right?
- Thread starter Hydrus
- Start date
Absolutely not. To your Switch example it's still gimmicky, though I'd call those features. They still do a lot of family friendly games, noteably more than the other console platform holders. Their hardware is also clearly weakest, it's easy spot from the ports. I do love my Switch, but I'm not one of those "fans" who have said what you described.
Exactly. I still remember the post utterly concerned over the new camera and "slower" combat.
I think fan opinion is more valid when figuring out what doesn't work in a video game rather than what to include. It's easier to criticize something and explain why it doesn't work than come up with a solution that fixes it. Fans do the former, Devs do the latter.
It goes both ways. This is a one-sided point of view. The devs are people that want things too, and they have a say in how things evolve. Devs are fans as well half the time.
But yes a lot of fans know what the community wants, and often times their collective advice is very good for projects.
Just look at how Warhawk was pretty much destroyed by Starhawk. No fans wanted that garbage.
But yes a lot of fans know what the community wants, and often times their collective advice is very good for projects.
Just look at how Warhawk was pretty much destroyed by Starhawk. No fans wanted that garbage.
Yep, absolutely this. Also, mentioning things like "sales numbers" is pointless as the gaming market is continuously expanding and for console games, it also depends on how much your console sells. The best Wii U game would have failed in that regard.
I think communication between fans and pubs/devs is cleaner than ever and the industry is smaller than ever. We see clear trends develop, reactions are bigger and the industry feels smaller. So we do see more attention to wanted changes and sequels
But we also see less new IP cause nobody can clearly articulate how that should occur and therefore there seems less demand for it
But we also see less new IP cause nobody can clearly articulate how that should occur and therefore there seems less demand for it
Quite a few including myself
Many talked about how awesome a Norse GOW would be. And I've always wanted the series to be more like the Zelda roots the original wanted to be and Jaffa talked of(but didn't quite meet)
lol, Kratos is still the same Kratos of the previous installments. The latest God of War just revealed another side of him and made him likeable and relateable. The same way Dragonball Z done to The Prince of All Saiyans, Vegeta.
EA have yet to realize that we need a new good old Command and Conquer game, so no, they have not realized the fans are right.
Fans are usually wrong. If Square Enix were to make a third Chrono game and base it specifically on what fans want for instance, it would be a carbon copy of Trigger instead of another game allowed to be its own thing like Cross was (listening to fans would likely even lead to that game getting retconned).
For me, sometimes individual fans can be right if they are also creativity talented. Like how John Carpenter was a fan of the Thing From Another World so made The Thing or times when fanon has been incorporated into canon or projects like Sonic Mania or Undertale or when the creator themself is the problem with the material and fans of the works step in to create something new like Star Trek 2 The Warth of Khan or Star Wars The Force Awakens.
However, most of the time I've found, fandom has a very limited mindset and often refuse or reject the idea of new things or concepts into a work, instead want the same thing over and over or like publishers, trend hop into wanting to make their favourite work to be like what else is popular at the time. This is why fans are usually terrible at casting and when stuff like the backlashes of famous superhero casting decisions are hilarious in hindsight. Or when a fans says this idea could be cool, it gets rejected because it hasn't happened or been explored in the lore therefore to them, it can't be (only for the idea to be explored and done well in the lore and they all act like hypocrites and say it was always a good idea).
This is because the pasta sauce analogy applies here the same as it does with publishers, there is no perfect pasta sauce, just perfect pasta sauces and people don't know if they like something or not unless they try it.
However, most of the time I've found, fandom has a very limited mindset and often refuse or reject the idea of new things or concepts into a work, instead want the same thing over and over or like publishers, trend hop into wanting to make their favourite work to be like what else is popular at the time. This is why fans are usually terrible at casting and when stuff like the backlashes of famous superhero casting decisions are hilarious in hindsight. Or when a fans says this idea could be cool, it gets rejected because it hasn't happened or been explored in the lore therefore to them, it can't be (only for the idea to be explored and done well in the lore and they all act like hypocrites and say it was always a good idea).
This is because the pasta sauce analogy applies here the same as it does with publishers, there is no perfect pasta sauce, just perfect pasta sauces and people don't know if they like something or not unless they try it.
I mean of course, it's just that the new take on Kratos here and revealing this side of him is so effective that most Kratos haters can't even really object of his existence here, from what i saw at least, this game would be a VERY different game if you throw the old kratos here, even if you let everything else stay the same.
And woah the Vegeta comparison is so on-point!
We have had a dozen threads this week demanding that a variety of franchises receive "the God of War treatment". Yet, I can safely guess that nobody would've had the idea 5 years ago to give God of War "the God of War treatment".
Fans are blinded as consumers, blinded by their flights of fancy and lofty expectations. But above all, they're idiots who don't know what they actually want and listening to them will be a creative's ruin.
Fans are blinded as consumers, blinded by their flights of fancy and lofty expectations. But above all, they're idiots who don't know what they actually want and listening to them will be a creative's ruin.
First of all, what are your methods of obtaining fan consensus on these topics?
Secondly, fans in gemeral weren't clamoring for current version of GoW... what are you talking about here?
Thirdly, no. The opinion of the majority of fans should never be taken seriously. Devs should always implement their vision. The role of fans is to play the final product, that's it.
As it has been proven time and time again for the most part, fans don't really know what they want. And design by comittee can result in something like FF XV. Let's not do that.
Secondly, fans in gemeral weren't clamoring for current version of GoW... what are you talking about here?
Thirdly, no. The opinion of the majority of fans should never be taken seriously. Devs should always implement their vision. The role of fans is to play the final product, that's it.
As it has been proven time and time again for the most part, fans don't really know what they want. And design by comittee can result in something like FF XV. Let's not do that.
What a sad existence it would be to go to work everyday and make a game for the internet which will still bitch about whatever you do then for yourself and your coworkers.
Lastly for me when it comes to a creation of a reboot or sequel, I disagree with the notion that it's a bad idea that a fan would be a terrible choice for this.
It it ignores that having these sorts of thing about people who have no idea of the source material can lead to very cynical works, works that alter stuff to the detriment of the source material or misses the point of the original and lacks the spark of the original
However it is true that in the case of most fans, they'd create something that would be completely isolating and impenetrable for non-fans to watch, fixate of canon and stories we've already explored and may end up with very fladerized versions of the character.
What you need to do is what is usually stated as what makes a great parody, you need to someone's who is both familiar and a fan of the source material, but is also willing to looking at the work with a critical eye (something a lot of fans struggle to do) and both acknowledge and chance parts that simply haven't aged well or don't work, able to laugh at and acknowledge the sillier aspects of the work and either embrace it or change it without it feeling mean spirited and is willing to bring in new ideas into the work to make it fresh rather then relying on the old already well walked on plots and ideas of the past. But most of all, someone who is able to pin point what excatly it is that made people love the original in the first place, the spark that made the work unique and is able to keep that spirit even with the changes and alterations.
It it ignores that having these sorts of thing about people who have no idea of the source material can lead to very cynical works, works that alter stuff to the detriment of the source material or misses the point of the original and lacks the spark of the original
However it is true that in the case of most fans, they'd create something that would be completely isolating and impenetrable for non-fans to watch, fixate of canon and stories we've already explored and may end up with very fladerized versions of the character.
What you need to do is what is usually stated as what makes a great parody, you need to someone's who is both familiar and a fan of the source material, but is also willing to looking at the work with a critical eye (something a lot of fans struggle to do) and both acknowledge and chance parts that simply haven't aged well or don't work, able to laugh at and acknowledge the sillier aspects of the work and either embrace it or change it without it feeling mean spirited and is willing to bring in new ideas into the work to make it fresh rather then relying on the old already well walked on plots and ideas of the past. But most of all, someone who is able to pin point what excatly it is that made people love the original in the first place, the spark that made the work unique and is able to keep that spirit even with the changes and alterations.
Listening to the market isn't the greatest move either in a lot of cases either, that can result in cynical cash grabs, trend hoping and mostly importantly in gaming, publisher ignoring the devs in order to appease to test audiences rather than what is actually good for the games themselves, often creating shallow and generic games.
This is why we good to many WOW wannabe MMOs or MOBAs, Military grey and brown FPSs or the Guitar Hero knock offs or when publishers declare "Survival horror /Single player/multiplayer/co-op/third person is dead!" only to find out they aren't, their just to busy making their games fit what the basic market numbers are telling them to realize their is no perfect pasta sauce.
AKA, why Resident Evil 6 exists.
I don't think they sit around thinking "What can we do to make what a small vocal minority of fans happy?" Instead are probably thinking "What can we make that will bring us the most amount of $$$?"
It just sort of happened that developers in the last few years happened to give (some) fans what they want. Personally i never cared for a FFVII Remake and that thing will probably turn out to be another Twin Snakes scenario where fans bitch and moan till the end of time at even the most minor changes that have been made, till the end of time. Assuming it even ever even comes out.
I'm sure Developers take feedback into account but Nintendo did not make BotW non linear because fans complained that SS sucked. They did it because they finally had decently powerful system to achieve what they wanted to do all along. RDR2 was always going to happen as will RDR3 and GTAVI. It has nothing to do with the fact that some fans might want it.
It just sort of happened that developers in the last few years happened to give (some) fans what they want. Personally i never cared for a FFVII Remake and that thing will probably turn out to be another Twin Snakes scenario where fans bitch and moan till the end of time at even the most minor changes that have been made, till the end of time. Assuming it even ever even comes out.
I'm sure Developers take feedback into account but Nintendo did not make BotW non linear because fans complained that SS sucked. They did it because they finally had decently powerful system to achieve what they wanted to do all along. RDR2 was always going to happen as will RDR3 and GTAVI. It has nothing to do with the fact that some fans might want it.
Devs shouldn't listen to fans. If they did, we wouldn't have gotten games like Resident Evil 4, Resident Evil 7, or Wind Waker, which were all met with skepticism (some more than others) after their initial reveals.
Also most of the bad practices in this industry are down to the publishers, not the developers.
Also most of the bad practices in this industry are down to the publishers, not the developers.
I think it's a good idea that more games have betas, and that the devs have close contact to the community, through forums like this and their own sites. That being said, we make a very smal fraction of the overall market.
Gamers are super dedicated, and some go lengths to better the experience of certain games (e.g. I know who Durante is because of this)
But that being said, few - even within the hardcore community - has any idea about development from the inside, and that means we don't what devs are even capable of. It might have been that Nintendo wanted to try something new with Zelda, ala BotW, but couldn't in the past due to hardware limitations or financials (though I doubt that).
This can be said for a lot of things.
Whatever the case may be, I advocate for devs and publishers to have contact to the hardcore community that knows what fans love about their games (although certain things appeal to different people, few fans out hundreds of hours into games if it isn't for the very gameplay)
But developers are the pros. They know what can and can't be done, and I want them to push the boundaries of our collective imagination. Few things beat a great game, but one that surprises us on top that; that's what makes gaming really great!
Gamers are super dedicated, and some go lengths to better the experience of certain games (e.g. I know who Durante is because of this)
But that being said, few - even within the hardcore community - has any idea about development from the inside, and that means we don't what devs are even capable of. It might have been that Nintendo wanted to try something new with Zelda, ala BotW, but couldn't in the past due to hardware limitations or financials (though I doubt that).
This can be said for a lot of things.
Whatever the case may be, I advocate for devs and publishers to have contact to the hardcore community that knows what fans love about their games (although certain things appeal to different people, few fans out hundreds of hours into games if it isn't for the very gameplay)
But developers are the pros. They know what can and can't be done, and I want them to push the boundaries of our collective imagination. Few things beat a great game, but one that surprises us on top that; that's what makes gaming really great!
If the fans were getting what they wanted then these boards wouldn't be filled with so much crying and moaning.
We wouldn't have God of War if devs listened to the "fans" so i was really surprised to see it used here as an example for your argument. Zelda "fans" around the time of BotW's release were also complaining a lot about the changes from the story focus of Skyward Sword.
I came into this topic expecting it to be about loot boxes and microtransactions. As for games they will only listen to fans after release which is fine by me.
I think it's ok to listen to fans to get a general direction, but nothing more. There's no unified voice for what's wanted, and ultimately what's wanted is usually a load of bullshit (rehashes that they'll then spit on for being a rehash).
The fans are practically always wrong and should never be considered in the creative process
Unless they are talking about me, because my ideas are the best and very unique.
Unless they are talking about me, because my ideas are the best and very unique.
They sure should listen, but they should not build an entire game just on fan feedback / wishes.
Fans can be wrong as much as developer can be when blindly chasing requirements the by marketing department / the publisher.
Still waiting for F Zero and a Zelda game that follows the good old formula i actually like.
You say they are listening to their fans but they just seems to, successfully and ultimately that's all that matters, do whatever the fuck they want knowing that's what the next generation of fans wants to play, which is the best course of action. Oh and a few remakes of games that i have no intention of going back to of course, which again, are probably made to let new players experience old classics old farts like me are constantly praising (or not, i dislike crash for example).
You say they are listening to their fans but they just seems to, successfully and ultimately that's all that matters, do whatever the fuck they want knowing that's what the next generation of fans wants to play, which is the best course of action. Oh and a few remakes of games that i have no intention of going back to of course, which again, are probably made to let new players experience old classics old farts like me are constantly praising (or not, i dislike crash for example).
Lol the OP is a perfect distillation of 20-20 hindsight mixed with confirmation bias.
This is a great link that I doubt many have bothered to read.
This is a great link that I doubt many have bothered to read.
hahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dear god no.
People who play A LOT of games are a really really small subset of people actually playing games. Looking over the forum there is a huge blindspot for the general population, given the 'gamers' love of shitting on tutorials.
Mechanics for long running series are really the only time I have seen actual good advice. Asking gamers what they want new os almost always 'I WANT SOMETHING NEW. Not too new. Like a little new. Y'know what just give me the old thing again.'
Dear god no.
People who play A LOT of games are a really really small subset of people actually playing games. Looking over the forum there is a huge blindspot for the general population, given the 'gamers' love of shitting on tutorials.
Mechanics for long running series are really the only time I have seen actual good advice. Asking gamers what they want new os almost always 'I WANT SOMETHING NEW. Not too new. Like a little new. Y'know what just give me the old thing again.'
Oh yeah, I didn't mean they shouldn't listen to fans at all. They should obviously take feedback into consideration. But there are a lot of times when fans push back hard against certain aspects of certain games, and ultimately turn out to be very, very wrong. Then again, there are also times when the exact opposite of that happens.