Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,884
The Youtube channel Hardware Unboxed published a video yesterday taking a look at gaming loading times on PC using NVME PCIE 4.0 SSDs. They performed synthetic benchamrks and then looked at gaming load times for a variety of different drives - PCIE 4.0, PCIE 3.0, SATA SSD, and regular HDDs.

As expected, it confirmed what we all know - there are major bottlenecks that exist on PC when it comes to gaming I/O. Despite the fact that PCIE 3.0+ NVME SSDs offer signficant performance improvements over SATA SSDs, there is effectively zero meaningful improvement in the loading times of games.

Here are the synthetic benchmarks, which gives you an idea of just how much faster PCIE 3.0/4.0 drives are when compared to a regular SATA SSD:

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And despite these significant improvements in drive speeds, this is the result in PC games -



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A lot of people have said that developers will just "require a SSD" for PC games in the near future, but that doesn't even begin to address the bottleneck issues on PC, nor the colossal difference in speed between a SATA SSD and a NVME SSD. If you look at the synthetic benchmarks, you'll see that a SATA SSD is actually closer in performance to a 5400 RPM HDD than it is to a PCIE 3.0/4.0 NVME SSD.

Both NVME SSDs solutions in the PS5 and Xbox Series X|S are significantly faster than a SATA SSD on PC. So what happens going forward for PC games? Do developers require not just a SATA SSD for their PC games, but a NVME SSD? If you're building a game to stream data at a given rate, and the PS5 can do it at 5.5 GB/s raw, and the Series X|S can do it at 2.5 GB/s raw, are developers actually going to require PCs to have those PCIE 3.0+ drives that can do 2+ GB/s reads?

Recently we've heard a lot about DirectStorage and RTX I/O. But just because these technologies exist does not mean they're anywhere close to being utilized on the PC. Developers have to take up these tools, build them into their game engines, and then actually implement them into the core design of their game.

And then they have to not only raise the minimum requirement of their game to a SATA SSD, but all the way up to a NVME PCIE 3.0+ SSD. Along with a RTX card for RTX I/O. Is that even realistic within the next 5 years? What percentage of PC gamers will have a NVME PCIE SSD and a RTX based GPU three years from now?

I've seen some discussion that the larger RAM pools on the PC will make up for the difference, but is this really going to be the case? Sure, the $2,000+ PCs will have GPUs with 10+ GB of VRAM and and 32+ GB of system RAM, and in that case a 500 MB/s SSD could maybe make sense, given that additional data could be moved and stored in RAM to make up for the lack of I/O speed relative to the consoles. But your average gaming PC is going to have 16 GB of system RAM with a GPU with 6-8 GB of VRAM. I have 16 GB of RAM in my current PC right now, with only 9.3 GB available due to browsers, Discord, and various other apps and processes running in Windows. 9 GB + 8 GB of VRAM on my GPU gives about 17 GB of total RAM for a game - not that much more than the next-gen consoles.

The simple reality is that these bottlenecks are going to continue to exist for a while on PC while having evaporated for consoles. Developers can start building a game on PS5 or Xbox Series X|S and can take advantage of those ultra fast drives immediately, without having to calibrate or limit the design of the game to work on hardware that may not be sufficient.

I want nothing more than to see the next-gen consoles push the requirements for PCs sky high, because that means more revolutionary experiences for everyone. I just fear that the PC is going to lag behind for a while in this regard.

www.youtube.com

Best SSD for Gaming: PCIe 4.0 vs 3.0 vs SATA vs HDD Load Time Battle

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jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,233
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I want nothing more than to see the next-gen consoles push the requirements for PCs sky high, because that means more revolutionary experiences for everyone

No, it means revolutionary experiences for barely anyone which makes those games not viable financial investments in the first place
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
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Oct 25, 2017
60,587
You'll just get a worse experience on PC without an NVME. The exact same as playing a game with specs below minimum or recommended.

There'll be a solution soon anyway
 
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EekumBokum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,562
So console exclusives are gonna be the TRUE next-gen games if a dev takes advantage of this?
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,160
I'll keep saying what I've been saying about adoption of SSD stuff in next gen games on PC, they are just going to increase RAM requirements to make up for it IMO. A lot of games have been getting increasingly larger VRAM requirements and 8GB system RAM minimum seems like its going to get phased out soon.
 

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,676
Question:

what specifically makes you sure this is a problem on the hardware side and not something due to how the software's designed

like I know there's stuff on PC that will absolutely make use of superior NVME speeds if possible (I believe Adobe Premiere is one of these programs IIRC), it just didn't include games yet because most games are on platforms that can't have NVME SSD and thus don't bother accounting for them.
 

Sabin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,719
I want nothing more than to see the next-gen consoles push the requirements for PCs sky high, because that means more revolutionary experiences for everyone. I just fear that the PC is going to lag behind for a while in this regard.

Hyperbole much

There are allready solution in the work by Microsoft, Nvidia and AMD and these will most likely be ready before any of these games launch. Also what kind of next-gen game wouldn't be possible on PC?
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,073
USA
I still run most of my pc games off of a hard drive. Load times are longer, but outside crackdown 3 I've yet to see any performance difference.

It's why I'm excited about the new ratchet and clank. It's the lone game that uses the nvme to improve the game, other than just loading times.
 

Lausebub

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,165
It will probably take some time until devs can take full advantage of those SSDs/IOs which isn't just faster loading. UE5 is going in that direction, but Epic said
their technology is scalable, so we have no idea how slower SSd/IO is going to impact anything.
 

LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,190
Probably a couple of years off most third party games dropping last gen support anyway. Will be interesting to see where PC hardware is at then.
 

Snarfington

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,936
I'm hopeful that solutions to this problem will be out by the time it starts to matter (they have a good couple of years, I think) because it would suck and be really weird for PCs to start bottlenecking console game design. But even if it does, it starts with a 0% userbase which is possibly going to be limiting for a good few years.
 

Firefly

Member
Jul 10, 2018
8,763
NVMe SSD prices will decrease. They will become the norm faster than they have til now.

Remember, not every game will require AT THE MINIMUM, 2.4GB/s or 5.5GB/s speeds or beyond. By the time games get to that point, the NMVe drives will be even cheaper.
 

Chackan

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,133
I'll just spend about 150€ and have a NVME SSD that is faster than the XSX one. Also, with Direct Memory and stuff, it will be fine.

Besideso, I already have 16Gb ram, if necessary I'll just drop 70€ and increase it to 32Gb total.

I know the worries are with the I/O and not exactly the components, but it will be fine. RTX I/O and Direct Memory are just two of the technologies that are going to address those bottlenecks.

I am sure that there are more to come.

Edit: Correct me if I'm wrong but NVME drives are starting to become the norm (or already are) in pre-built PCs, no?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,163
The effectively 0 improvement on load times in even better ssds can also be attributed to just the pipeline of the games not being made with faster SSDs in mind. There is a point where just increasing the speed doesnt matter if the game wasnt supposed to work that way.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,552
Austin
A year from now we won't even be talking about this with new games. Nor will be still talking about console ssds, it's just "exciting" now because it's new to so much of the overall gaming market.

Direct storage and other improvements from amd and nvidia will be implemented asap because of the work Microsoft is doing to unify the development pipeline of pc and Xbox.

That plus falling nand prices and ram requirements going up means this will be a non issue.
 

tokkun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,467
Hyperbole much

There are allready solution in the work by Microsoft, Nvidia and AMD and these will most likely be ready before any of these games launch. Also what kind of next-gen game wouldn't be possible on PC?

Microsoft said they hope to get the developer preview version of DirectStorage out by the end of 2021. So I will be surprised if we actually see games using it before 2023.
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
By the time these kinds of speeds are required/commonplace, the drives will be cheap.

It's unrealistic to believe that (console-specific) devs are immediately coming out of the gate with stuff that takes advantage of the speed. This is brand new tech, especially for platform-owned studios.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
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Oct 25, 2017
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When DirectStorage launches on PC late 2021, it should start to be less of an issue. I say less cause realistically it'll be late 2022/early 2023 before it's prevalent in PC games.

that said, it's expected there will be some pains til then. Hopefully, PC stores will be download appropriate SSD optimized variants. That said, not a major issue as I expect the ram gap to increase and PCs to mitigate with more upfront loading.
 

Deleted member 1476

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Lmao at the hyperbole of the OP. Most games announced (even exclusives) are still cross gen, so all the benefits are moot. Devs could've gone next-gen only, but they didn't.

Talking like PCs are holding back consoles when they themselves are still anchored to last/current-gen.
 

Bomi-Chan

Member
Nov 8, 2017
665
I remember a time, when nintendo games had no loading times and this was seen as consolegaming.
Now, we finally go back to it.
I think the focus on PCs is different. Its about squeezing out every out of the game, not out of the hardware.
 

discotrigger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
567
While I'm sure some of this results from bottlenecks in today's modular PC hardware architecture, I'm curious to see these benchmarks and tests run on Linux. Windows is notorious for its I/O bottlenecks and this is one area where Linux generally wins out, so it could help us to better understand the potential of current PC hardware. Considering how a large majority of PC games play pretty well on Linux now, it seems relevant to the discussion.

Of course, it's worth noting as always that software will load faster if it's optimized for faster storage solutions in the first place. There's only so much the OS can do for you.
 
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NeoBob688

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
Current DDR4 RAM offers speeds of 20-25 GB/s which is multiple times faster than even PS5 SSD (VRAM is even faster still). Adding an additional 16 GB of RAM can be had for ~$80 and is the easiest PC upgrade. If rapid data access is required during gameplay the interim fix is to upgrade RAM so that all key data can be frontloaded on game boot. An additional consideration is that there will be a cross-gen period for 1-2 years where multi-platform games will still cater to PS4. That is a significant amount of time for computer hardware to progress (10+ GB VRAM and PCIe 4.0 will be solidly medium-end hardware by next year).
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
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Oct 25, 2017
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These aren't hardware bottlenecks lmao.

That's the correct assessment. It's a software issue in Windows current FS APIs which is why MS is creating the DirectStorage API which will GPUs to directly interact with FS as well as getting rid of many of the software issues causing slower than desired I/O on high speed SSDs.
 
Jun 1, 2018
4,523
I'll keep saying what I've been saying about adoption of SSD stuff in next gen games on PC, they are just going to increase RAM requirements to make up for it IMO. A lot of games have been getting increasingly larger VRAM requirements and 8GB system RAM minimum seems like its going to get phased out soon.
Yeah, no wonder nvidia plans to launch a 20gb 3080 in december. 10gb is not enough for the next 2 years.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,422
NVMe SSD prices will decrease. They will become the norm faster than they have til now.

Remember, not every game will require AT THE MINIMUM, 2.4GB/s or 5.5GB/s speeds or beyond. By the time games get to that point, the NMVe drives will be even cheaper.


PCIe 3.0 Nvme drives are already roughly on par with SATA SSD prices. I think adoption of NVME will be pretty quick. But that doesn't solve the fundamental problem OP talks about (great OP btw) which is file systems/games/OS overhead - something - is not taking advantage of NVME speeds.

Is it CPU compression of assets taking most of the time so the actual loads are not that impactful? why wouldn't the actual asset loading be noticably faster than these benchmarks show?
 

Dan

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Oct 25, 2017
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what an absolute terrible take on the content of that video. Good lord.
 

Shyotl

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Oct 25, 2017
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The effectively 0 improvement on load times in even better ssds can also be attributed to just the pipeline of the games not being made with faster SSDs in mind. There is a point where just increasing the speed doesnt matter if the game wasnt supposed to work that way.
Yup. Decoding and transforming assets isn't free, by any stretch of the imagination. The bottleneck has just shifted up the pipeline. Window's filesystem apis kinda blow, so there's also that. Also, many games only have a fixed amount of worker threads(or god forbid, only do it on the main thread) for loading assets, which can be completely overloaded by these fast SSDs. There are also scenarios where one may have to throttle decoding and/or GPU uploads to fit within the frametime budget if assets are being streamed during gameplay. It's a very thorny issue.

That said, there's still going to have to be decompression done somewhere, unless we're willing to have game install sizes skyrocket. I guess it would preferably be done on the GPU whenever possible to minimize the data sent over the PCIe bus. GPU compute could do this, I suppose, although dedicated hardware would be neat. Thenagain, sometimes you need those textures on the CPU too... so then there's the matter of readback... Additonally, dx/gl support 'compressed' textures already, but the algorithms are pretty primitive (LUT-derived shit), it's lossy, the compression ratios are horrible, and the resulting images look like garbage imo.
 
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Deleted member 10675

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Your argument is fallacious, moving from a SATA SSD to a NVME SSD giving marginal loading time improvements probably means the bottleneck is the CPU, not the I/O like you claim.
 

Deleted member 50374

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I am still incredibly skeptical that anything other than fast loading times and quick resume is coming. Ratchet & Clank demo was designed around the quick I/O, but it's very much a gimmick for now.
 

Spiderman

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Oct 28, 2017
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"As expected, it confirmed what we all know - there are major bottlenecks that exist on PC when it comes to gaming I/O"

Lmao
 

TheMadTitan

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Oct 27, 2017
27,448
DMC5 loading on my PC with 3900x and 970 EVO 500GB



Horizon ZD


The DMC video loaded slower than the PS5 video, but not so much slower that I'd say the experience will be crippled, and it's still within the range of significantly faster than the PS4 that the PS5 is.

By time this is actually going to be an issue, solutions will already exist. VRAM and system RAM will likely mitigate these, too.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
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Oct 25, 2017
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Sure but it's pretty true this gen. PS5's SSD is already proving to be a lot better than any PC's. Hopefully when full next gen games come around there will be hardware that will help lower the gap between PC and PS5/XSX.

can't make any assumptions until RTX I/O and DirectStorage are out tbh
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
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Oct 25, 2017
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Sure but it's pretty true this gen. PS5's SSD is already proving to be a lot better than any PC's. Hopefully when full next gen games come around there will be hardware that will help lower the gap between PC and PS5/XSX.

so is XSX and we know the core component of getting better than SSD speeds for BC is MS DirectStorage API which will be coming to PC next year. By the time, every game no longer does cross-gen, it'll be commonly used on PCs. For Linux (and likely in Driver Impl for DS), I expect there to be vendor extensions to the Vulcan API for accessing FS. I'd also expect the SFS extensions to DX 12 should also make loading be more efficient on PC. That said, it's purely a software issue on PC.